New Kudos Titan 707

Yes very neat. 

james n posted:

Yes very neat. 

No, it's Kudos!

Maybe they got the idea from Royd, my 30 year old Apex are like that.

analogmusic posted:

Not exactly quite sure why you are curious, it is quite clear that my appreciation of the Stradivari is based on many hours of listening to it? I'm curious too why you thought otherwise  

No I am sorry to disagree again, going active doesn't always necessarily beat the passive options.

Many factors are at play, such as quality of the drivers, (which only companies (like Dynaudio ATC and B&W) which make their own drivers can guarantee and tweak to perfection).

Sonus Faber, B&W (800 series) an Dynaudio all use very benign crossovers. the 800 series B&W just has a capacitor and a resistor to the tweeter, that's it, because their drivers are extremely well made and have very good frequency behaviour in terms of the crossover.

Kudos do use the same very quality German made Mundorf capacitors as B&W, and use similar benign crossovers (to be fair to them)

In fact I would say when comparing the passive version of my Dynaudio Focus 260 driven by Naim amplifier, with the active focus XD600, there is very little in it, if anything at all. Certainly nothing to make me move away from the Naim boogie with my 282/250DR... 

The little amp packs which attach to the back of many active speakers, aren't in the same league as a NAP 250 DR. Then will all the vibration from the bass, I wonder how those amp packs actually perform at their best if they are contract subject to microphony.

No matter how 'benign' or simple a crossover might be, it will still have an effect compared to direct connection berween amp and each driver. But on the argument of active vs passive I did say all else being equal, as I fully recognise that all factors in the design of a speaker affect its performance. It is very likely that the Stradivarius would sound even better if it was available active. Comparing active speaker X vs passive speaker Y tells you which overall package sounds better, but not whether or not or by how much active sounds better than passive. And yes of course any individual may prefer the sound of one or the other - speakers are so far from perfection that there can be vast differences in sound between different ones even st the price of the Stradivarius.

The only real problem with active is that it triples the cost of power amps, (and done ideally mightrequire 3 Daves...)

As you note, is of course possible to enjoy music without the refinement of active, as indeed the vast majority of us do, and indeed the same applies to less than top of the range sources or other components, but if someone is seeking the best sound it becomes a factor in the consideration of speakers, but not the defining point which can only be the sound produced.

BTW, by active i am referring to driving the speakers actively, not necessarily "active speakers" with built in amps, though those might be best if they are optimised with the speaker. 

My apologies if I missed something you may have said indicating you had decided on the Srrad as ideal for you through auditioning - all I had noticed was a leap from implying that all that is needed is a £2k or so Dynaudio to citing the Srrad, top B&Ws and top Dynaudios as ones you'd consider.

Frank Abela posted:

Bodger posted:

sunbeamgls posted:

 

I really wanted to like the 808 and was a bit (positively) biased once I got to THAT shop. I found the 808 fast but shouty. Bass was not the real deal for me. I thought they needed a second bass driver.

Dave

 

It already has 2 bass drivers.

Err, it has one. A mid and a tweeterrr.

No bodger, it has two bass units in isobaric configuration. I.e. One bass driver you can see and another in a chamber behind that one loading it specifically for bass response. So IT HAS TWO.

Frank.

Frank,

I know - you are right. I sent a "like" to Sunbeam to apologise. I forgot about the second driver tucked away. So to be completely accurate, it needs a third bass driver

Isobarik but needs another driver ?

amused and confused

how does proac d20 manage such bass with only one bass driver ?

i have to say that I have been very disappointed with Naim's retreat from active speaker systems and feel a tad let down over it. Currently, if my NBLs 'die' then in the current Naim hierarchy I have little choice but to return to passive which for those of a certain age whose whole upgrade 'raison d'etre' was to achieve an active system is seen as a retrograde step.

For once Richard I have to disagree with you, this should not be blue sky thinking. If Naim/Sopra can't or are unwilling to do it then at least give Kudos or someone else who can a chance and support with an appropriate active crossover.

The guys from Kudos got back to me. They've been working on an active solution for the 808 with Naim electronics. Once sorted, it will then be over to Naim to see if they will implement a SNAXO. I for one would certainly be keen to hear it.

I wonder how many potential customers this would appeal to (snaxo for T 808s)? A lot of development for a niche product with few potential customers perhaps.

It would be interesting to see an age distribution of active users. I get the impression (probably wrong) that new customers probably do not go for it and it's mostly people who are approaching their pension or already in it. All those boxes strike me as a bit of a palaver (and cost) and we are led to believe that just one cable not dressed just so can spoil the sound.

Does anyone know when the 707 will be in shops for demos? I'm certainly keen to hear it. Just hope the treble is not forward.

Ghettoyout posted:

I wonder how many potential customers this would appeal to (snaxo for T 808s)? A lot of development for a niche product with few potential customers perhaps.

It would be interesting to see an age distribution of active users. I get the impression (probably wrong) that new customers probably do not go for it and it's mostly people who are approaching their pension or already in it. All those boxes strike me as a bit of a palaver (and cost) and we are led to believe that just one cable not dressed just so can spoil the sound.

Does anyone know when the 707 will be in shops for demos? I'm certainly keen to hear it. Just hope the treble is not forward.

Yep, going active the old Naim way's certainly a palaver. It's expensive. You need to find room for all those extra boxes. Messy cables. A real faff. But boy, does it sound good, which is the object of the exercise.

Imagine a SNAXO in a NAP100 case with 2x NAP100s and Super 20s - that would be a nice compact set up.

Then the battles could rage about active NAP100 vs passive NAP250!  That would be fun

Yes the nap 100 is perfect for active operation. Now if naim would oblige with snaxo for a kudos speaker .... would be an interesting option

heihei posted:

The guys from Kudos got back to me. They've been working on an active solution for the 808 with Naim electronics. Once sorted, it will then be over to Naim to see if they will implement a SNAXO. I for one would certainly be keen to hear it.

Excuse me,  you mean Kudos is actually working with Naim!

Great news, that a well respected speaker manufacturer realized that working with Naim, could be beneficial to both parties!

Go figure!

Allante93!

sunbeamgls posted:

However, I know from information and experience that its possible to design software crossovers in Exakt in a week.  

Nice work with the Exacted 20.26 BTW 

Allante93 posted:

heihei posted:

The guys from Kudos got back to me. They've been working on an active solution for the 808 with Naim electronics. Once sorted, it will then be over to Naim to see if they will implement a SNAXO. I for one would certainly be keen to hear it.

Excuse me,  you mean Kudos is actually working with Naim!

Great news, that a well respected speaker manufacturer realized that working with Naim, could be beneficial to both parties!

Go figure!

Allante93!

Having developed the "floaty" SNAXO for the Ovator 600/800 and almost immediately discontinuing the latter, It would make perfect sense for that effort to be utilised elsewhere. I've also learned from one of my many spies that a SNAXO for Kudos might be in the offing, and that could be a very exciting development.

sunbeamgls posted:

Christopher_M posted:

analogmusic posted:

Many factors are at play [in active systems], such as quality of the drivers, (which only companies (like Dynaudio ATC and B&W) which make their own drivers can guarantee and tweak to perfection).

Not forgetting, er, Naim.

C.

Trabant made their own engines.  Does that make them good engines?  No. 

Who makes stuff is not really important in getting a good result.  Its all about making sure that the product is delivered in the way intended by the designer - you don't have to do this yourself to get a good result. 

I don't think there are many architects out there who pour their own concrete. I'm certain Naim don't make all their own resistors and capacitors either, yet both are capable of good results.

I hate it when people use cars to express their point of view. One has nothing to do with the other, comparing the analogy that a car maker that makes its own engine to a speaker manufacturer that makes its own drivers is totally irrelevant.

Of course a speaker manufacturer can get good results from drivers made from outside sources, but unless you are an expert and an insider, your statement that who makes the drivers is not really important as long as the results are good does seem to be more of a compromise by the speaker manufacturer, it is actually a case of what you settle for.

People see the finished product and are impressed with what they see, the speaker sounds excellent and that's all fine and dandy, but what goes on behind the making of the speaker is what can really make the difference in overall quality. There is a difference, a really huge difference between buying from an outside source and producing your own!

Below kind of explains the difference.

I think it would be negligent of me if I did not tell you a little about Dynaudio driver production. Each driver goes through 85 quality checks at each stage of production. Actually, after the first operation, each stage rechecks the work of the previous operation as well as their own, so 84 of the 85 checks are done twice. Then there is a final check on the assembled cabinet, for a grand total of 86 checks. Because the tolerances are so tight, there is no need to search for matched drivers in the Contour lines. Drivers for the Contour lines have to be within 1 dB tolerance and 0.25 dB for the Reference line. The Reference line drivers are actually built by engineers rather than production staff. It takes from 30 to 45 minutes to make a single driver, compared to the assembly lines that take a fraction of that time at the competition. The readings for all drivers are logged into the database at Dynaudio, and in the very unlikely event of having to replace a driver, Dynaudio would reference the readings of the original driver to find a matching replacement.

Attention to detail, yes. Do you pay for it, yes. Is it worth the cost, you tell me. Would you want your speakers to be made with anything less? Actually, considering the effort from design to shipping, I am surprised it does not cost a lot more. Make no mistake, this is world class manufacturing, with very few peers in any industry.

badlands posted:

sunbeamgls posted:

Christopher_M posted:

analogmusic posted:

Many factors are at play [in active systems], such as quality of the drivers, (which only companies (like Dynaudio ATC and B&W) which make their own drivers can guarantee and tweak to perfection).

Not forgetting, er, Naim.

C.

Trabant made their own engines.  Does that make them good engines?  No. 

Who makes stuff is not really important in getting a good result.  Its all about making sure that the product is delivered in the way intended by the designer - you don't have to do this yourself to get a good result. 

I don't think there are many architects out there who pour their own concrete. I'm certain Naim don't make all their own resistors and capacitors either, yet both are capable of good results.

I hate it when people use cars to express their point of view. One has nothing to do with the other, comparing the analogy that a car maker that makes its own engine to a speaker manufacturer that makes its own drivers is totally irrelevant.

Of course a speaker manufacturer can get good results from drivers made from outside sources, but unless you are an expert and an insider, your statement that who makes the drivers is not really important as long as the results are good does seem to be more of a compromise by the speaker manufacturer, it is actually a case of what you settle for.

People see the finished product and are impressed with what they see, the speaker sounds excellent and that's all fine and dandy, but what goes on behind the making of the speaker is what can really make the difference in overall quality. There is a difference, a really huge difference between buying from an outside source and producing your own!

Below kind of explains the difference.

I think it would be negligent of me if I did not tell you a little about Dynaudio driver production. Each driver goes through 85 quality checks at each stage of production. Actually, after the first operation, each stage rechecks the work of the previous operation as well as their own, so 84 of the 85 checks are done twice. Then there is a final check on the assembled cabinet, for a grand total of 86 checks. Because the tolerances are so tight, there is no need to search for matched drivers in the Contour lines. Drivers for the Contour lines have to be within 1 dB tolerance and 0.25 dB for the Reference line. The Reference line drivers are actually built by engineers rather than production staff. It takes from 30 to 45 minutes to make a single driver, compared to the assembly lines that take a fraction of that time at the competition. The readings for all drivers are logged into the database at Dynaudio, and in the very unlikely event of having to replace a driver, Dynaudio would reference the readings of the original driver to find a matching replacement.

Attention to detail, yes. Do you pay for it, yes. Is it worth the cost, you tell me. Would you want your speakers to be made with anything less? Actually, considering the effort from design to shipping, I am surprised it does not cost a lot more. Make no mistake, this is world class manufacturing, with very few peers in any industry.

 

If you can't see the analogy and parallels with internally source components in other industries that's fine, but its just a manufacturing process, its not a religion or anything. Perhaps the parallel with buidings or Naim is less offensive?  Of course, many companies who build drivers for speaker builders are much more expert at doing it than the speaker builder, just as there are speaker builders who are good at manufacturing drivers. I find it a little odd that you want to massively defend a particular approach to manufacturing that I haven't criticised at all.  Why choosing the best way to get to a result is seen as a compromise is a bit beyond me.  Its a practical choice rather than a dogma.

You give an example of what looks like a good process and approach - there is no reason why this can't be done by a supplier, as much as an internal practice.  But be rest assured that, just like your example, there will be many manufacturers who build their own drive units that do a worse job than a specialist supplier, so making stuff in-house is no guarantee of a great result that's all I'm saying.  Either way is valid. Neither is a guarantee of a great result, neither is either a guarantee of a bad result.

Build in-house or get a supplier to do it for you to your precise requirements, makes no difference at all, other than to who does what, not the actual outcome.  What would be a less than ideal thing to do is choose a pair of speakers based on the way they are made rather than the way they sound.  So listen to what they sound like and buy them if you like them, I would suggest that buying a pair of speakers on the basis of the way the manufacturer has chosen to deal with their supply chain isn't a good criteria to use.

sunbeamgls posted:

badlands posted:

sunbeamgls posted:

Christopher_M posted:

analogmusic posted:

Many factors are at play [in active systems], such as quality of the drivers, (which only companies (like Dynaudio ATC and B&W) which make their own drivers can guarantee and tweak to perfection).

Not forgetting, er, Naim.

C.

Trabant made their own engines.  Does that make them good engines?  No. 

Who makes stuff is not really important in getting a good result.  Its all about making sure that the product is delivered in the way intended by the designer - you don't have to do this yourself to get a good result. 

I don't think there are many architects out there who pour their own concrete. I'm certain Naim don't make all their own resistors and capacitors either, yet both are capable of good results.

I hate it when people use cars to express their point of view. One has nothing to do with the other, comparing the analogy that a car maker that makes its own engine to a speaker manufacturer that makes its own drivers is totally irrelevant.

Of course a speaker manufacturer can get good results from drivers made from outside sources, but unless you are an expert and an insider, your statement that who makes the drivers is not really important as long as the results are good does seem to be more of a compromise by the speaker manufacturer, it is actually a case of what you settle for.

People see the finished product and are impressed with what they see, the speaker sounds excellent and that's all fine and dandy, but what goes on behind the making of the speaker is what can really make the difference in overall quality. There is a difference, a really huge difference between buying from an outside source and producing your own!

Below kind of explains the difference.

I think it would be negligent of me if I did not tell you a little about Dynaudio driver production. Each driver goes through 85 quality checks at each stage of production. Actually, after the first operation, each stage rechecks the work of the previous operation as well as their own, so 84 of the 85 checks are done twice. Then there is a final check on the assembled cabinet, for a grand total of 86 checks. Because the tolerances are so tight, there is no need to search for matched drivers in the Contour lines. Drivers for the Contour lines have to be within 1 dB tolerance and 0.25 dB for the Reference line. The Reference line drivers are actually built by engineers rather than production staff. It takes from 30 to 45 minutes to make a single driver, compared to the assembly lines that take a fraction of that time at the competition. The readings for all drivers are logged into the database at Dynaudio, and in the very unlikely event of having to replace a driver, Dynaudio would reference the readings of the original driver to find a matching replacement.

Attention to detail, yes. Do you pay for it, yes. Is it worth the cost, you tell me. Would you want your speakers to be made with anything less? Actually, considering the effort from design to shipping, I am surprised it does not cost a lot more. Make no mistake, this is world class manufacturing, with very few peers in any industry.

 

If you can't see the analogy and parallels with internally source components in other industries that's fine, but its just a manufacturing process, its not a religion or anything. Perhaps the parallel with buidings or Naim is less offensive?  Of course, many companies who build drivers for speaker builders are much more expert at doing it than the speaker builder, just as there are speaker builders who are good at manufacturing drivers. I find it a little odd that you want to massively defend a particular approach to manufacturing that I haven't criticised at all.  Why choosing the best way to get to a result is seen as a compromise is a bit beyond me.  Its a practical choice rather than a dogma.

You give an example of what looks like a good process and approach - there is no reason why this can't be done by a supplier, as much as an internal practice.  But be rest assured that, just like your example, there will be many manufacturers who build their own drive units that do a worse job than a specialist supplier, so making stuff in-house is no guarantee of a great result that's all I'm saying.  Either way is valid. Neither is a guarantee of a great result, neither is either a guarantee of a bad result.

Build in-house or get a supplier to do it for you to your precise requirements, makes no difference at all, other than to who does what, not the actual outcome.  What would be a less than ideal thing to do is choose a pair of speakers based on the way they are made rather than the way they sound.  So listen to what they sound like and buy them if you like them, I would suggest that buying a pair of speakers on the basis of the way the manufacturer has chosen to deal with their supply chain isn't a good criteria to use.

Some years ago someone published a list of speaker manufacturers who used one of the OEM manufacturers - I have in mind it was Scanspeak - to make custom drivers to their specification. There were some surprising names on the list, though I don't recall details. i really don't see a difference between that and making in-house, assuming it is a good ralationship and manufacturere with rigorous control, other than that it may be cheaper to develop in-house because you can play with prototypes, and indeed possibly cheaper to manufacture.

tonym posted:

Allante93 posted:

heihei posted:

The guys from Kudos got back to me. They've been working on an active solution for the 808 with Naim electronics. Once sorted, it will then be over to Naim to see if they will implement a SNAXO. I for one would certainly be keen to hear it.

Excuse me,  you mean Kudos is actually working with Naim!

Great news, that a well respected speaker manufacturer realized that working with Naim, could be beneficial to both parties!

Go figure!

Allante93!

Having developed the "floaty" SNAXO for the Ovator 600/800 and almost immediately discontinuing the latter, It would make perfect sense for that effort to be utilised elsewhere. I've also learned from one of my many spies that a SNAXO for Kudos might be in the offing, and that could be a very exciting development.

Better than the traditional Snaxo, someone - e.g Naim, Chord etc - should refine the DSP active  crossover idea for splitting in the digital domain with three digital outputs on which you can use DACs of your choice. Offering an add-on ADC as well would make it usable with analogue sources as well - for Chord the Davina ADC would be perfect, married to 3 Daves.

A major advantage of the DSP approach is it could be made readily programmable to suit different speakers, by the speaker manufacturer somthat it can domprecisely what they want it to in matching drivers etc.

Yes Mr Bystander, that would be a spiffing development and ultimately a far more effective one than messing arond with analogue. Inevitable in the future.  

Innocent Bystander posted:

tonym posted:

Allante93 posted:

heihei posted:

The guys from Kudos got back to me. They've been working on an active solution for the 808 with Naim electronics. Once sorted, it will then be over to Naim to see if they will implement a SNAXO. I for one would certainly be keen to hear it.

Excuse me,  you mean Kudos is actually working with Naim!

Great news, that a well respected speaker manufacturer realized that working with Naim, could be beneficial to both parties!

Go figure!

Allante93!

Having developed the "floaty" SNAXO for the Ovator 600/800 and almost immediately discontinuing the latter, It would make perfect sense for that effort to be utilised elsewhere. I've also learned from one of my many spies that a SNAXO for Kudos might be in the offing, and that could be a very exciting development.

Better than the traditional Snaxo, someone - e.g Naim, Chord etc - should refine the DSP active  crossover idea for splitting in the digital domain with three digital outputs on which you can use DACs of your choice. Offering an add-on ADC as well would make it usable with analogue sources as well - for Chord the Davina ADC would be perfect, married to 3 Daves.

A major advantage of the DSP approach is it could be made readily programmable to suit different speakers, by the speaker manufacturer somthat it can domprecisely what they want it to in matching drivers etc.

Might you be taking your keenness for Chord a little too far? A Dac for each output? 

Innocent Bystander posted:

tonym posted:

Allante93 posted:

heihei posted:

The guys from Kudos got back to me. They've been working on an active solution for the 808 with Naim electronics. Once sorted, it will then be over to Naim to see if they will implement a SNAXO. I for one would certainly be keen to hear it.

Excuse me,  you mean Kudos is actually working with Naim!

Great news, that a well respected speaker manufacturer realized that working with Naim, could be beneficial to both parties!

Go figure!

Allante93!

Having developed the "floaty" SNAXO for the Ovator 600/800 and almost immediately discontinuing the latter, It would make perfect sense for that effort to be utilised elsewhere. I've also learned from one of my many spies that a SNAXO for Kudos might be in the offing, and that could be a very exciting development.

Better than the traditional Snaxo, someone - e.g Naim, Chord etc - should refine the DSP active  crossover idea for splitting in the digital domain with three digital outputs on which you can use DACs of your choice. Offering an add-on ADC as well would make it usable with analogue sources as well - for Chord the Davina ADC would be perfect, married to 3 Daves.

A major advantage of the DSP approach is it could be made readily programmable to suit different speakers, by the speaker manufacturer somthat it can domprecisely what they want it to in matching drivers etc.

Another manufacturer is already doing this, only without the 'DACs of your choice' just yet.  Uses a multiple DAC box with a DAC per speaker driver.

There are several suppliers of digital active crossovers, and by definition they have to have a DAC on each output because it is split in the digital domain.  But one of their limitationsis the DACs: as we all know, the DAC can make a huge difference, therefore to provide the quality we want the DACs need to be what we like. Certainly need not be Chord, could be nDAC for example. My mention of Dave was simply thinking of the ultimate, and Davina because I know they are designing an ADC to match Dave.

In fact I have one, made by Behringer, to play with in a speaker design project. Maybe one day I might try using it as it is with some other amps I have on my PMCs, which can be activated, and if that makes it seem worth it I might try rewiring it to allow bypass its internal DACs and borrow a couple of decent DACs to see what it is like. 

Bodger posted:

Frank Abela posted:

Bodger posted:

sunbeamgls posted:

 

I really wanted to like the 808 and was a bit (positively) biased once I got to THAT shop. I found the 808 fast but shouty. Bass was not the real deal for me. I thought they needed a second bass driver.

Dave

 

It already has 2 bass drivers.

Err, it has one. A mid and a tweeterrr.

No bodger, it has two bass units in isobaric configuration. I.e. One bass driver you can see and another in a chamber behind that one loading it specifically for bass response. So IT HAS TWO.

Frank.

Frank,

I know - you are right. I sent a "like" to Sunbeam to apologise. I forgot about the second driver tucked away. So to be completely accurate, it needs a third bass driver

LOL, in fact it has a third one but the speaker is configured as a 2.5 way so not sure how much it counts nor where in the bass spectrum it comes in. 

It could simply be that the type of bass presentation, which is very clean, is just not for you. Many people struggle when the bass presentation is totally clean - they expect a little euphonic warmth which acts as a comfort. Unfortunately, it often acts as a soak which doesn't allow the speaker to drive as quickly. Not sure, maybe something else was at play, so many variables...

Thanks for the ray of light!

Frank.

I own a pair of Kudos T88's.  The bass performance is excellent, but like any high-end speaker, it's what's upstream that matters.  As to the "shouty" comment, my experience has been that is caused by poor soldering joints and incorrect speaker pins.  Derrick (the designer) was very helpful when I took delivery of my pair and sorting out problems.  He's a very bright designer and uses Naim electronics to voice his speakers.  

Chris Bell posted:

I own a pair of Kudos T88's.  The bass performance is excellent, but like any high-end speaker, it's what's upstream that matters.  As to the "shouty" comment, my experience has been that is caused by poor soldering joints and incorrect speaker pins.  Derrick (the designer) was very helpful when I took delivery of my pair and sorting out problems.  He's a very bright designer and uses Naim electronics to voice his speakers.  

Naim amps, but not necessarily sources, at least judging from the equipment they take to shows.