It's my opinion that a few people, including one or two on this forum, need to recognise the difference between a "lie" and a "prediction (that didn't materialise)".

So i'll start with a LIE. see my next three of four posts...........

Example of a LIE

Southweststokie posted:

Politicians can ignore the view of their constituents at their peril. Come the next general election the ignored people will vent their spleen!

However if by 2020 the effects of Brexit have come to pass as per predictions because of closing off access to the single market to ensure "control of our borders", then surely that will be reflected in the next general election too... and MPs will have sold the country out for the popular vote!

Don Atkinson posted:

Southweststokie posted:

Politicians can ignore the view of their constituents at their peril. Come the next general election the ignored people will vent their spleen!

Hi SWS,

I understand that a disproportionate number of OAPs voted to Leave.

In which case, come the next General Election, a fair number of those who voted "leave" will be dead or so "ga-ga"that they won't remember what their MP did. So I can't see too many MPs being concerned on either count

And there will be all the 16 year olds who didn't get a vote at the referendum who will be frothing at the mouth, able to vote who will still stay in bed all day and not get their ***es to the polling station!  :-)

Don Atkinson posted:

Example of a LIE

Don't you know that's not a lie, just an "alternative fact" (TM: the Trump Presidency)

Eloise posted:

And there will be all the 16 year olds who didn't get a vote at the referendum who will be frothing at the mouth, able to vote who will still stay in bed all day and not get their ***es to the polling station!  :-)

But they will all vote for the X Factor final on their smart phones without delay 

Southweststokie posted:

Eloise posted:

And there will be all the 16 year olds who didn't get a vote at the referendum who will be frothing at the mouth, able to vote who will still stay in bed all day and not get their ***es to the polling station!  :-)

But they will all vote for the X Factor final on their smart phones without delay 

Perhaps that's how we should re-run the Referendum and the next General Election

Don Atkinson posted:

Southweststokie posted:

Eloise posted:

And there will be all the 16 year olds who didn't get a vote at the referendum who will be frothing at the mouth, able to vote who will still stay in bed all day and not get their ***es to the polling station!  :-)

But they will all vote for the X Factor final on their smart phones without delay 

Perhaps that's how we should re-run the Referendum and the next General Election

We should have compulsory voting (or at least compulsory attendance / return of voting card).  Of course no government would bring that in as the people who don't vote generally wouldn't vote for the status quo (probably as they don't like the dire straits).

Eloise posted:

We should have compulsory voting (or at least compulsory attendance / return of voting card).  Of course no government would bring that in as the people who don't vote generally wouldn't vote for the status quo (probably as they don't like the dire straits).

People who don't or can't be bothered to exercise their right to vote cannot complain after the event if they don't like or agree with the outcome.

I know where you are coming from, though in my constituency where the Tory majority is so overwhelming, whether I vote or not is irrelevant. If the Tories put up a cabbage, it would win. It would probably be more use than our MP too. 

Don Atkinson posted:

Example of a LIE

Other examples of a LIE

Despite Anna Soubry’s claim to the contrary on a recent Question Time appearance, Remainers did suggest there would be an immediate Brexit recession. No recession to date, in fact the OECD now believes the UK economy will grow 1.8% this year, up 0.1% on its pre-referendum estimate. Even Mark Carney, the Governor of the Bank of England, now admits he is “quietly optimistic” about Brexit.

David Cameron said he wouldn’t resign as Prime Minister if he lost the Referendum vote.

Southweststokie posted:

Other examples of a LIE

Despite Anna Soubry’s claim to the contrary on a recent Question Time appearance, Remainers did suggest there would be an immediate Brexit recession. No recession to date, in fact the OECD now believes the UK economy will grow 1.8% this year, up 0.1% on its pre-referendum estimate. Even Mark Carney, the Governor of the Bank of England, now admits he is “quietly optimistic” about Brexit.

You are correct that certain Remain campaigners did say there would have to be an emergency budget following the referendum result if it came out as "Leave" result.  However economists generally said that leaving the EU would cause economic stagnation and recession which is not the same thing - I will say it again ... WE HAVE NOT YET LEFT THE EU!

IF the banks leave; IF Nissan, Toyota and BMW close their plants; IF tariffs are put on exports - these are all possible eventualities which would lead to a collapse of the British economy ... none of which were even considerations if the UK stayed in the EU.

Anyhow that is not an example of a LIE because the claim was felt to be correct.  A lie is when you say something you KNOW to be incorrect.  You also have to consider there were measures put in place by the Bank of England which may have staved off risk of recession  

Essentially within the EU there was very little holding the UK economy back.  Outside of the EU there is a lot of pitfalls.

David Cameron said he wouldn’t resign as Prime Minister if he lost the Referendum vote.

Okay that might be considered a lie I will give you that.

If the banks leave?

Barclays are talking to the Irish regulators. Credit Suisse are talking to the Irish regulators. Standard Chartered are talking to the Irish regulators......

Eloise posted:

Cameron said he wouldn’t resign as Prime Minister if he lost the Referendum vote.

Okay that might be considered a lie I will give you that.

A lie is a deliberate falsehood, stating something to be different from what you know to be the case.

Based on the sort of character he is I Cameron probably at the time of saying it he meant it, thinking that if the impossible did happen he would of course stand and pick up the pieces, with a battle to fight for the good of the country against the leaders of the Brexit campaign post vote ..... leaders who promptly evaporated, while the shock of it happening was more overwhelming than he anticipated (or rather in his naivety he hadn't imagined at all). If this guess is true, then it was not a lie.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Eloise posted:

Cameron said he wouldn’t resign as Prime Minister if he lost the Referendum vote.

Okay that might be considered a lie I will give you that.

A lie is a deliberate falsehood, stating something to be different from what you know to be the case.

Based on the sort of character he is I Cameron probably at the time of saying it he meant it, thinking that if the impossible did happen he would of course stand and pick up the pieces, with a battle to fight for the good of the country against the leaders of the Brexit campaign post vote ..... leaders who promptly evaporated, while the shock of it happening was more overwhelming than he anticipated (or rather in his naivety he hadn't imagined at all). If this guess is true, then it was not a lie.

I actually agree... I don't think he had any intention of standing down just faced with the result recognised it was inevitable.  As I've repeatedly said the whole referendum was ill-conceived and David Cameron's resignation was just the final step.

So yes that removes that as a Remain "lie" too.  I was trying to not have to defend D.C. :-)

Southweststokie posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Example of a LIE

Other examples of a LIE

Despite Anna Soubry’s claim to the contrary on a recent Question Time appearance, Remainers did suggest there would be an immediate Brexit recession. No recession to date, in fact the OECD now believes the UK economy will grow 1.8% this year, up 0.1% on its pre-referendum estimate. Even Mark Carney, the Governor of the Bank of England, now admits he is “quietly optimistic” about Brexit.

David Cameron said he wouldn’t resign as Prime Minister if he lost the Referendum vote.

The first is an example of a prediction.

The second is an example of a broken promise.

Don Atkinson posted:

Southweststokie posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Example of a LIE

Other examples of a LIE

Despite Anna Soubry’s claim to the contrary on a recent Question Time appearance, Remainers did suggest there would be an immediate Brexit recession. No recession to date, in fact the OECD now believes the UK economy will grow 1.8% this year, up 0.1% on its pre-referendum estimate. Even Mark Carney, the Governor of the Bank of England, now admits he is “quietly optimistic” about Brexit.

David Cameron said he wouldn’t resign as Prime Minister if he lost the Referendum vote.

The first is an example of a prediction.

The second is an example of a broken promise.

Wow, we are really splitting hairs now,

Southweststokie posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Southweststokie posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Example of a LIE

Other examples of a LIE

Despite Anna Soubry’s claim to the contrary on a recent Question Time appearance, Remainers did suggest there would be an immediate Brexit recession. No recession to date, in fact the OECD now believes the UK economy will grow 1.8% this year, up 0.1% on its pre-referendum estimate. Even Mark Carney, the Governor of the Bank of England, now admits he is “quietly optimistic” about Brexit.

David Cameron said he wouldn’t resign as Prime Minister if he lost the Referendum vote.

The first is an example of a prediction.

The second is an example of a broken promise.

Wow, we are really splitting hairs now,

Absolutely not!

Not only was the 2nd a broken promise, but it was a pledge that was never intended to be kept. It was utterly and totally fraudulent - a deliberate falsehood!

The first was indeed a prediction, and one that could yet come true. We won't know until negotiations for BREXIT are complete and BREXIT actually takes place.

About as wide apart as it is possible to be in respect of the definition of a 'LIE'. 

The title of this thread asks…

Who's the real "traitor to the people"...

A few candidates you might like to consider….

David Cameron - Spineless

Nigel Farage -  Lies

Boris Johnson - Never believed in Brexit but now has to go along with his stupidity

Theresa May - Looking more like a dictator every day - but let's see what the debate reveals

Tory MPs who vote to trigger A.50 but whose constituency voted to remain

Labour MPs who simply follow Corbyn's 3-line whip

The "Spin-Doctor" who came up with £350m per week

I can't agree with HMack regarding David Cameron's promise not to resign. As long as he made this promise in good faith then it is not a lie.

In any event, I'm unclear as to what effect this "promise" could have had on the outcome of the referendum unless the suggestion is that some leave voters would have voted to remain had they thought that DC would resign after a leave result.

Southweststokie posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Southweststokie posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Example of a LIE

Other examples of a LIE

Despite Anna Soubry’s claim to the contrary on a recent Question Time appearance, Remainers did suggest there would be an immediate Brexit recession. No recession to date, in fact the OECD now believes the UK economy will grow 1.8% this year, up 0.1% on its pre-referendum estimate. Even Mark Carney, the Governor of the Bank of England, now admits he is “quietly optimistic” about Brexit.

David Cameron said he wouldn’t resign as Prime Minister if he lost the Referendum vote.

The first is an example of a prediction.

The second is an example of a broken promise.

Wow, we are really splitting hairs now,

Nope. There is no such thing as splitting hairs between lies v predictions/broken promise.

They are completely and utterly different.

I am astonished that otherwise reasonable people on this forum are unable or unwilling to appreciate this.

sjbabbey posted:

I can't agree with HMack regarding David Cameron's promise not to resign. As long as he made this promise in good faith then it is not a lie.

In any event, I'm unclear as to what effect this "promise" could have had on the outcome of the referendum unless the suggestion is that some leave voters would have voted to remain had they thought that DC would resign after a leave result.

Sorry sjabbey,

I agree with you. I suspect I made the mistake of not reading the previous posts thoroughly enough. 

When I stated:

"Not only was the 2nd a broken promise, but it was a pledge that was never intended to be kept. It was utterly and totally fraudulent - a deliberate falsehood!

The first was indeed a prediction, and one that could yet come true. We won't know until negotiations for BREXIT are complete and BREXIT actually takes place.

About as wide apart as it is possible to be in respect of the definition of a 'LIE'". 

my intention was to describe the "£350 million for the NHS' as the broken promise, and the forecast of a recession as a simple prediction.

I was not (intentionally) referring to David Cameron's 'promise at all.

And of course, May and Johnson might prove me wrong. They may actually give the extra £350 million to the NHS in the end - I guess that's just too much a stretch of the imagination.