Don Atkinson posted:

I am astonished that otherwise reasonable people on this forum are unable or unwilling to appreciate this.

Because they are sick and fed up of the fact that those who voted remain can't accept that the majority of the electorate who voted, VOTED LEAVE, and not because of the endless propaganda of lies, on both sides. They are after all politicians and as such they don't necessarily lie but rather don't tell the whole of the truth, only the part that paints the picture they want to portray. They all do it, we all know it. The leavers voted leave because they were already sick and fed up of EU interference and the plight of their own lives constantly being degraded over the last 20+ years. They also could not see any benefit to themselves personally in remaining. They know they were voting for uncertainty but they could not stomach more of the same. I've said all this before I know.  

I do wonder if the result had been 52% remain, 48 % leave, 17% no vote, would the remain camp be saying hang on a minute a lot to people who voted, but not the majority,  don't want to remain, lets hold the referendum again. I somehow doubt it.

No problem HMack. It looks like we're on the same wavelength.

Hi SwS

Put aside the reason "The leavers voted leave because....." by which I think you mean the reason YOU voted to leave, and possibly a few people with whom you are acquainted.

The LIE is "We send the EU £350 million a week"

and "Let's give our NHS the £350 million the EU takes every week"

Regardless of why you voted the way you did, or the benefits you perceive in leaving, I am astonished that you have difficulty accepting that the Leave Campaign told these lies.

Eloise posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Eloise posted:

Cameron said he wouldn’t resign as Prime Minister if he lost the Referendum vote.

Okay that might be considered a lie I will give you that.

A lie is a deliberate falsehood, stating something to be different from what you know to be the case.

Based on the sort of character he is I Cameron probably at the time of saying it he meant it, thinking that if the impossible did happen he would of course stand and pick up the pieces, with a battle to fight for the good of the country against the leaders of the Brexit campaign post vote ..... leaders who promptly evaporated, while the shock of it happening was more overwhelming than he anticipated (or rather in his naivety he hadn't imagined at all). If this guess is true, then it was not a lie.

I actually agree... I don't think he had any intention of standing down just faced with the result recognised it was inevitable.  As I've repeatedly said the whole referendum was ill-conceived and David Cameron's resignation was just the final step.

So yes that removes that as a Remain "lie" too.  I was trying to not have to defend D.C. :-)

I think it possible that Cameron said this because if he promised to resign in the event that the referendum went against him, some folk might have voted 'leave' just to get rid of him!  

Don Atkinson posted:

Hi SwS

Put aside the reason "The leavers voted leave because....." by which I think you mean the reason YOU voted to leave, and possibly a few people with whom you are acquainted.

The LIE is "We send the EU £350 million a week"

and "Let's give our NHS the £350 million the EU takes every week"

Regardless of why you voted the way you did, or the benefits you perceive in leaving, I am astonished that you have difficulty accepting that the Leave Campaign told these lies.

I'm not saying they didn't tell lies, I'm saying both sides lied or misled the voters by only portraying that part of the whole picture that suited 'the picture' they wanted to paint as ALL politicians always do.

Don Atkinson posted:

The title of this thread asks…

Who's the real "traitor to the people"...

 

A few candidates you might like to consider….

David Cameron - Spineless

Nigel Farage -  Lies

Boris Johnson - Never believed in Brexit but now has to go along with his stupidity

Theresa May - Looking more like a dictator every day - but let's see what the debate reveals

Tory MPs who vote to trigger A.50 but whose constituency voted to remain

Labour MPs who simply follow Corbyn's 3-line whip

The "Spin-Doctor" who came up with £350m per week

 

The Tory Party MPs can possible be forgiven of treachery for being a predictably bunch of Tories; loyal to their own chosen rank and file banking classes, the over privileged really well off who earn far too much money while the vast majority of the people are worked harder to become poorer in an ongoing effort to make the super rich richer. It's therefore understandable that the Tory Party have adopted the Brexit ideal for their future weapon of choice for infecting unfair and wicked right wing Tory ideology upon the British peoples.

Teresa May is a Remain turncoat, went to the Leave side for the Prime Minister career upgrade move, how anyone can trust someone like that i never know, but then again looking at the Tory Brexit Party cut-throat cabinet club, being trustworthy is not their business.

My candidate for the 'real traitor of the people award goes to Corbyn, who should show utter distaste for any involvement or agreement to the signing of A.50, and should let it remain the Tory Dogs Breakfast Brexit, and let them reap the mess for it alone along with the one solitary UKIP nutter.

Debs

naim_nymph posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

The title of this thread asks…

Who's the real "traitor to the people"...

 

A few candidates you might like to consider….

David Cameron - Spineless

Nigel Farage -  Lies

Boris Johnson - Never believed in Brexit but now has to go along with his stupidity

Theresa May - Looking more like a dictator every day - but let's see what the debate reveals

Tory MPs who vote to trigger A.50 but whose constituency voted to remain

Labour MPs who simply follow Corbyn's 3-line whip

The "Spin-Doctor" who came up with £350m per week

 

 

The Tory Party MPs can possible be forgiven of treachery for being a predictably bunch of Tories; loyal to their own chosen rank and file banking classes, the over privileged really well off who earn far too much money while the vast majority of the people are worked harder to become poorer in an ongoing effort to make the super rich richer. It's therefore understandable that the Tory Party have adopted the Brexit ideal for their future weapon of choice for infecting unfair and wicked right wing Tory ideology upon the British peoples.

Teresa May is a Remain turncoat, went to the Leave side for the Prime Minister career upgrade move, how anyone can trust someone like that i never know, but then again looking at the Tory Brexit Party cut-throat cabinet club, being trustworthy is not their business.

My candidate for the 'real traitor of the people award goes to Corbyn, who should show utter distaste for any involvement or agreement to the signing of A.50, and should let it remain the Tory Dogs Breakfast Brexit, and let them reap the mess for it alone along with the one solitary UKIP nutter.

Debs

Rather nicely put Debs. I don't quite agree that ALL Tory MPs are as bad as you make out but......

I should have included Corbyn individually, rather than roll him up with "Labour MPs"

To answer the OP's original question I repeat what I have already mentioned before on threads in Padded Cell in that David Cameron should never have put publicly to the vote whether to stay or come out of EU.  The issues involved were too serious and delicate to be decided by the lay man.  Its a bit like in law, there are cases in court which should be decided by the Jury but there are other specialised cases/issues which should be decided by the judges (experts) because of the specific nature of the matters involved.  Now we have voted so there is this unecessary obstacle of the .'people have voted'.  I could really wish that the MPs could vote what is best for the interest of the country but I feel this would not happen.  However if an argument be put accross that the people in the referendum were ill informed as to pros and cons of Brexit then perhaps a new ruling can be enforced for the benefit of the nation that the people of this nation be able to have a chance of a second vote. 

I posted this elsewhere (though have made some edits/additions now)...

This country has been taken over by a vocal minority.  Yes the referendum result was a clear if slim majority to leave, but since then the country has been held hostage to the ideals of UKIP.

On the assumption that not everyone who voted Leave did so for the same reason; the sane response would have been to announce on the 24th June that David Cameron was taking the referendum seriously and that he would trigger Article 50 in Autumn 2017. That would have given a clear 12 months where everyone could sit down and consider the options. A white paper (or several) should have set out various options which could have been debated so there was some form of consensus as to a direction that the UK should take - from remaining a full member of the Single Market and accepting (almost) full movement; to a complete withdrawal from all EU business (which is where May looks determined to take us).

Now admittedly this would have required EU co-operation in terms of opening discussions, but it would have given time to consider the options (as well as getting the French and German elections out the way which may well cause changes in policy of those countries).  After 12 months THEN based on the moods of the country Article 50 could have been triggered or not based on a vote in parliament.

The reason none of this happened is hysteria and the fear of loosing influence and power. So instead we have a semi-dictatorship of May and a small clique of like minded ministers, driving the UK towards a cliff with a faint hope of desires and ideals for the future...

Of course none of this happened and none of it can happen now... 

PS I accept this is very much a remoaner post.

Romi posted:

To answer the OP's original question I repeat what I have already mentioned before on threads in Padded Cell in that David Cameron should never have put publicly to the vote whether to stay or come out of EU.  The issues involved were too serious and delicate to be decided by the lay man.  Its a bit like in law, there are cases in court which should be decided by the Jury but there are other specialised cases/issues which should be decided by the judges (experts) because of the specific nature of the matters involved.  Now we have voted so there is this unecessary obstacle of the .'people have voted'.  I could really wish that the MPs could vote what is best for the interest of the country but I feel this would not happen.  However if an argument be put accross that the people in the referendum were ill informed as to pros and cons of Brexit then perhaps a new ruling can be enforced for the benefit of the nation that the people of this nation be able to have a chance of a second vote. 

First of all, this is the usual contemptuous Remoaning tripe by the usual type of arrogant Remoaner calling into question the intellectual capabilities of the electorate.

Secondly, it was a Referendum that got us into the EU kleptocracy, for which I bet you are still more than happy to accept that 40 year old verdict, so you should have no problem accepting that a Referendum will get us out. To further insult the electorate by saying that they are less able to formulate a position on the EU than, say, Diane Abbot or Jeremy Corbyn, neither of whose position is entirely clear right up to now, is quite breathtaking.

Cameron and his whole Remain propaganda machine hammered home to us, the electorate, that should we make the big mistake of voting to Leave then that is what would happen. Thankfully, we voted to Leave. The Article 50 revocation has no reverse gear. Between Parliament and the Referendum there has been at least 3 lost chances for either not holding the Referendum or stopping it, all gone.

There is far too much moaning on this forum and I don't think I've had my fair share, so (on behalf of the non-vocal majority);

1. Skis, skiing and ski gear should be subject to price controls so that us common folk can go skiing more often and buy more/better ski gear.

2. The working week should start on Tuesday so that I don't have to get up on Monday.

3. Doctors should charge £5 for a visit and medical care for all over-70's should be chargeable.

4. Arsenal should be investigated for fraudulent use of real estate.

5. The Government should provide Ferraris for people who can't afford them.

6. The channel tunnel should be blown up.

7. A statue of Nigel Farage should be erected outside the Foreign Office.

8. A statue of Steven Gerrard should be erected in Manchester.

9. Jeremy Corbyn should be knighted.

10. If they can be found, Nicholas Clegg should be castrated.

There! I feel better already ....

Romi posted:

To answer the OP's original question I repeat what I have already mentioned before on threads in Padded Cell in that David Cameron should never have put publicly to the vote whether to stay or come out of EU.  The issues involved were too serious and delicate to be decided by the lay man.  Its a bit like in law, there are cases in court which should be decided by the Jury but there are other specialised cases/issues which should be decided by the judges (experts) because of the specific nature of the matters involved.  Now we have voted so there is this unecessary obstacle of the .'people have voted'.  I could really wish that the MPs could vote what is best for the interest of the country but I feel this would not happen.  However if an argument be put accross that the people in the referendum were ill informed as to pros and cons of Brexit then perhaps a new ruling can be enforced for the benefit of the nation that the people of this nation be able to have a chance of a second vote. 

I get it now, really! We should vote until we get it right and having removed the "unnecessary obstacle", then we can stop. PURE F**KING GENIUS !!!

I'm sure I've seen this somewhere else though - I don't think you thought this up all by yourself ...

ynwa250505 posted:

Romi posted:

To answer the OP's original question I repeat what I have already mentioned before on threads in Padded Cell in that David Cameron should never have put publicly to the vote whether to stay or come out of EU.  The issues involved were too serious and delicate to be decided by the lay man.  Its a bit like in law, there are cases in court which should be decided by the Jury but there are other specialised cases/issues which should be decided by the judges (experts) because of the specific nature of the matters involved.  Now we have voted so there is this unecessary obstacle of the .'people have voted'.  I could really wish that the MPs could vote what is best for the interest of the country but I feel this would not happen.  However if an argument be put accross that the people in the referendum were ill informed as to pros and cons of Brexit then perhaps a new ruling can be enforced for the benefit of the nation that the people of this nation be able to have a chance of a second vote. 

I get it now, really! We should vote until we get it right and having removed the "unnecessary obstacle", then we can stop. PURE F**KING GENIUS !!!

I'm sure I've seen this somewhere else though - I don't think you thought this up all by yourself ...

Having seen the contents of your last two posts only goes to reassure the contents of my post. 

ynwa250505 posted:

 10. If they can be found, Nicholas Clegg should be castrated.

Surely everyone who supports the idea that Article 50 should be triggered as the people spoke democratically, should welcome Nick Clegg's move back in 2010 to support, in government, the party who won the most seats / the largest proportion of the vote?

The irony is that people criticise Corbyn's sticking to his principles because they say that only by compromises and getting elected to office will he have any power to change anything; yet when Clegg compromised some of his principles to get some power, he was criticised for being toadying and unprincipled.

PS. I'm not saying that I agree with the first point I made above - the Lib Dems went about supporting the Conservatives in the wrong way (IMO) and didn't fight hard enough for their own principles; but it was following the result of a democratic vote just like the referendum.

PPS. Its been argued in some places that MPs have no option but to support Article 50 following the referendum result because to do otherwise would "destroy all trust in democracy" in the UK.  Personally I think part of the issue is that there was no real trust in democracy in the UK before the referendum anyway, and many people voted in a way they felt would send a message to government.  Now the government are responding to that vote, but they are still not listening (IMO) to the real concerns of people; only reacting without offering any real solutions.

So we're now saying that we don't need to be part of the market but we do want special arrangements for the motor industry and financial services.  As Ken Clarke said this Alice in Wonderland stuff!

Eloise posted:

 

Personally I think part of the issue is that there was no real trust in democracy in the UK before the referendum anyway, and many people voted in a way they felt would send a message to government.

Eloise,

This is what I have been trying to say. People are cheesed off with the last 20 - 30 years of the political elite ignoring the plight of the average man / woman in the street. They implement policies that do nothing to help them, they feel like their plight is unimportant and they just see EU policies as never helping their cause. Right or wrong it is what they perceive and no matter who they voted for in successive general elections, for them, nothing improved. Hence when the referendum came along they grabbed the opportunity with both hands to send out a message feeling they had nothing to lose by voting leave and at the same time they might get the governments attention.

Southweststokie posted:

This is what I have been trying to say. People are cheesed off with the last 20 - 30 years of the political elite ignoring the plight of the average man / woman in the street. They implement policies that [they feel] do nothing to help them, they feel like their plight is unimportant and they just see EU policies as never helping their cause. Right or wrong it is what they perceive and no matter who they voted for in successive general elections, for them, nothing improved. Hence when the referendum came along they grabbed the opportunity with both hands to send out a message feeling they had nothing to lose by voting leave and at the same time they might get the governments attention.

The problem is that I still don't think the government is listening.  Or more they are listening but then reacting to placate rather than acting to solve problems.