Subwoofe or new speakers

I would actually look at the room acoustics first and a proper support for your SuperUniti. Also if possible avoid using mains filtering blocks.

You'd be surprised at the amount of bass small speakers have in general.

Alan

Have a listen to the Neat Iota Alpha speakers.  Remarkable and so small

As someone who recently tried to incorporate a sub-woofer, I recommend new speakers. It seemed to me to be difficult to get the sub "tuned in" for all types of music; what sounded good on rock was not so good on jazz, and was terrible for classical, I ended up leaving it set for classical, because it wasn't obnoxious (for lack of a better term) in that setup than the other way 'round.

I finally gave up and went for a new set of speakers.

Getting a sub to work well in a good quality system is very difficult.  Even when you can tune the sub to kick in where the speakers drop off,  there's a risk that the timing at the bottom end is compromised. In other words while you might get more pleasing oomph from the bass guitar and kick-drum, the snap and punch can be dulled and become smeared.  I'd be inclined to explore the other options mentioned before trying a sub.  

It's often easier to accurately integrate bass from a sub into a room than to accurately integrate bass from full range speakers in the same room.  This is because you can put the sub into the best position for an even bass response, where as full range speakers have to be positioned for the mid range response.

The trick is very simple: use a DSP system to integrate the sub - this can handle the crossover frequencies, phase (delay) matching and apply filters to correct the effects of the room modes.  To determine the programming of the DSP, use an instrumentation microphone and an application such as REW.  That makes it quite easy to do.

On the other hand trying to integrate a sub by ear alone is really difficult!

Thanks for the responses. I'm warming to the Iota Alphas if it effectively gives me the 'missing' bass to the sound I already have.

alanbass1 posted:

Thanks for the responses. I'm warming to the Iota Alphas if it effectively gives me the 'missing' bass to the sound I already 

Neat Iota Alpha's are worth a listen. I've got a pair on my Unitilite and they aren't bass shy at all. Very balanced and full sounding... maybe a little warm (as opposed to analytical), and they definitely know how to boogie. I've heard they don't perform as well in fully carpeted rooms (the pile of the carpet being an important factor apparently). I can't speak to this aspect as I have a wood floor in the room in question.

Also not great if you've got toddlers in the house or very curious dogs or cats... they are at perfect toddler height and don't have grills.

At that price range though, there are lots of really good speakers to audition. I'd be tempted to try Totem Sky's if I were you... heard them at a hifi show in Toronto and they blew me away. Quite a bit less than the Alpha Iota's too (at least here in Canada).

alanbass1 posted:

Thanks for the responses. I'm warming to the Iota Alphas if it effectively gives me the 'missing' bass to the sound I already have.

If you are a musician have a look at an odd-ball choice that may just work - ADAM speakers (German manufacturer of studio monitors and some domestic speakers).

I am not familiar with the Neat Iota or Superuniti but having tried a subwoofer with several speakers for many years (subwoofer is currently unused), my opinion is it is not worth the hassle although the effects or benefits can be pleasing. The subwoofer will be more useful when used with larger full-range speakers, not small tiny bookshelves. The issue with employing subwoofers is a mediocre or poor integration with the main speakers will aggravate rather than improve the bass situation.

8' x 12' is surely a small room. Assuming you have sorted out the setup and speaker placement, I would agree with the suggestions on room treatment. Or you might want to try different speakers which are able to give you what you want with kick drums, presuming the Iota is the problem.

Of course, all my opinions.

I own the Neat Iota's,and my 2 channel room is about 12' wide by 13.5' deep.I also own a couple of jl audio fathom 112's that I use in my basement home theatre.About 6 months ago I brought one of the Fathom's upstairs to try with my Dyn Excite 12's and the Iota's.Now at that time I was using a supernait 2 as my amp,which has assigned sub-outs,and the Fathom has built in room calibration,with it's own microphone.Anyway,it worked really well for me,and I could of lived with that setup long term,but the jl is quite expensive,and built like a tank.To me,the sub blended a little better with the Dyn's than Iota's,but the result was quite good with both moniters,I do like bass though.

I do have a deep pile carpet in this room so maybe the Alphas are best suited. I note several stores doing good deals on ex dm PMC 21s (around £1,000) which is why I mentioned these in my OP. I ought get out and have a listen to these and some other speakers.

Hi ... interesting thread....yes I have a small room.... with all the issues you had. I started with PMC20.21s a great speaker that is very articulate, open and quite dynamic....however to get any meaningful base ... I needed to turn the wick up to the point where it would pin me to the wall.....not good for the ears!!! I tried a rel sub .... not good. Then I tried a Velodyne DD10+ sub........... what a revalation.....this sub does a sweep of the room and gives you a live frequency response on your computer.......you can then fine tune the frequency response.... to get it pretty flat down to 25hz!  The sub is not ported and is really fast..... you can then dial it in - to the point where you could swear blind the base is all eminating from pmc's. This arrangement is very good - I can recomend it....I drive the sub via low level interconnects directly from the 272. My only observaiton is ideally - I would like 2 subs! - this would drive the room more evenly - so there was less of a sweet spot. Trying the rap track by Tyga 'Rack City' is an awesome demo .... have a look on you tube....https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGNQjJbGGVo    mine is only the 10 inch version.

Alphas are good but there are indeed several alternatives for a lower price. The price is just to high for the (good) speaker.

Interesting, there's a definite split in opinion observable here...

Group 1:  Integrated the sub 'by ear' and are all largely disappointed with the results.

Group 2:  Used instrumentation techniques to integrate the sub and are all pleased with the result.

Draw your own conclusions.

Note in a music context .... speed of the sub is critical - also the quality of base - I think non ported cabinets are more tuneful with no port noise. I am also not a fan of giant 18inch subs .... great in home theatre but not in music context ......... unless they roll in under say 35hz with perhaps some large stereo speakers.....just my thoughts.........

Huge posted:

Interesting, there's a definite split in opinion observable here...

Group 1:  Integrated the sub 'by ear' and are all largely disappointed with the results.

Group 2:  Used instrumentation techniques to integrate the sub and are all pleased with the result.

Draw your own conclusions.

I used Naim's nSats and nSub for three years with excellent results. The sub was set up entirely by ear and was totally integrated with the main speakers. Interestingly, using the sub improved music that had no low bass, such as solo violin. I assumed this was due to being able to reproduce low level ambient sounds in the recording. The sub was of course designed to be used with the speakers, which probably accounts for how easy it was to integrate. 

In the OP's case, I'd borrow some 21s and give them a go; I thought they were very good when I tried them at home - though the reason I bought 23s was because the 21s were unconvincing on the acoustic bass in jazz. 

OK HH, yes you identified the exception:  Sat/sub sets that are designed to work together can be set up by ear (and yes they can work exceptionally well like that).

There are also situations where people have manage to get heterogeneous sub systems working by ear - I'm not saying that it can't be done, just that you're much more likely to get it spot on if you use proper instrumentation to set it up.

Getting full range bass is always a challenge in domestic rooms, and regardless of what anyone says you won't get deep bass out of speakers where the drivers simply aren't capable of moving enough air - changing supports etc may change the quality of bass, changing a,ps may give more oomph or control than a more limiting amp, but that will be the harmonics not the fundamental of low bass notes. Decent full range speakers are more expensive than adding a sub, and the lack of directionality at the very bottom end allows subs to be placed optimally for the bass while not affecting the stereo imagery, which is more challenging with placement of full range speakers. Also in a small room a sub is likely to be far less intrusive than a pair of full range speakers. On the negative side it can be tricky integrating a sub, as others have mentioned, and phasing considerations may mean that placement is not as simple as sometimes thought.

On balance if I was starting afresh with speakers and limited to such a small room I would very seriously consider the sub approach. And if I was liiking at subs, I'd want to hear the Wilson Benesch Torus, which from all I've read raises high expectations, though it isn't cheap - but then good deep bass tends not to come cheap. (And it does come up secondhand from time to time.)

No speaker solution is perfect - if you go the sub sat route .... you need the most open and dynamic sats......... the likes of proac, pmc25.21  etc are ok the important thing I think is the roll off around 60hz .... this allows flexibility of placement ... and the chance you roll in the sub and tune it to blend. I think room EQ is critical but ultimately it has to sound right to the ear. HH is very lucky to get good placement and integration. I tried a Rel S5 it was dire ..... I could not get placement and tuning right.

Thanks again for the responses. When thinking about a sub I was looking at the B&W PV1D.

I will ask my dealer for a home demo of the PMC21s they have on offer to see if that addresses the missing 'oomph' I'm looking for. If not I may start to investigate the sub route. I don't feel speakers that are significantly larger is on the agenda due to room constraints - not written off, just that 'slghtly larger /higher quality speakers first, if no luck here l will look at a sub like the B&W, if no luck here I will look at larger speakers. In all cases I will ask my dealer about room treatment.

I've auditioned the Neat Iotas at home and I know exactly what you're missing; while they are amazing speakers, they have not been touched by the hand of G_d.  You cannot get the bass you want out of them.

I have not heard the Iota Alphas, but chances are the large gap between what you hear now and what you want to hear will not be filled in by these 'same drivers in a bigger box' speakers.  It's a 100mm driver.  Maybe the hand of G_d has touched these, I don't know.  If you can do a free audition at home, why not?

You have a small space.  Just try a small subwoofer and see how it works. It's not worth all the hand-wringing you're reading here.  Get a small sub and try it!  (I'm very picky about sub integration and have done it at home, by ear, to my great satisfaction.  You never know 'til you try.)

Bart posted:

I've auditioned the Neat Iotas at home and I know exactly what you're missing; while they are amazing speakers, they have not been touched by the hand of G_d.  You cannot get the bass you want out of them.

I have not heard the Iota Alphas, but chances are the large gap between what you hear now and what you want to hear will not be filled in by these 'same drivers in a bigger box' speakers.  It's a 100mm driver.  Maybe the hand of G_d has touched these, I don't know.  If you can do a free audition at home, why not?

You have a small space.  Just try a small subwoofer and see how it works. It's not worth all the hand-wringing you're reading here.  Get a small sub and try it!  (I'm very picky about sub integration and have done it at home, by ear, to my great satisfaction.  You never know 'til you try.)

The Iota is a 2 way the Alpha is a 2.5 way with an additional 134mm drive unit in the base of the speaker. I use a pair in a second system driven by a Unitilite remarkable bass for the size of the enclosure I found them best with NAC A5 speaker cable and about 200mm out from the wall.

Pcd posted: The Iota is a 2 way the Alpha is a 2.5 way with an additional 134mm drive unit in the base of the speaker. I use a pair in a second system driven by a Unitilite remarkable bass for the size of the enclosure I found them best with NAC A5 speaker cable and about 200mm out from the wall. 

 

"Remarkable bass for the size of the enclosure" applies to the Iotas too.  If the OP can get a pair on loan, again, why not!?!

i found that in my room,with a sub added,i do not need to turn it up very loud to be satisfied with the bass.My jl audio is also sealed,with it in this room i have not heard a deeper,fuller sounding bass from any of the other speakers i have had in here...which are,Neat Iota's,Neat Motive sx1's,Dyn Excite 12's,Dyn Focus 160's,Dyn C1 mk11's,Dyn Xd 600's,and my current Taksim Reference 3a's.I would try a Jl audio e 110 if i were you,i think it would match well with the Iota's,another thing too,with such fantastic bass,it may curb the desire to upgrade the amp.

Those are tiny speakers, and eminently portable. Take them down to a dealer and see if a different system might supply the missing bass. If so, you have exonerated the speakers. Look for setup problems. My experience has been that it is a lot harder to get bass into a speaker than out of it.

Or if you're just in the mood for a change, go for new speakers!