Core storage thoughts

Posted by: jon h on 28 January 2017

Having just unpacked my shiny new Core, I am faced with some choices about storage.

Core has an internal tray that slides out the rear and can take a 3.5" HD or 2.5" SSD. The Core comes with a bag with some HD screws in it, so mounting it is the task of a couple of minutes from start to finish. It can use USB, and/or network storage too.

This lends the obvious question about what storage should I use on Core? Where should it be? What are the upsides and downsides?

As one who has just bought a production core, I thought I'd jot down some notes to help others.

Firstly remember that Core comes with no storage in the box. This is a wise decision by naim because it removes any 3rd party warranty liability from the equation. Wasnt it failure of the Seagate ST277R drives that essentially sank Amstrad computers when they were making significant inroads into the European PC market? Plus I'm pretty sure I can buy a drive more cheaply from Amazon and fit it myself than I could expect from either Naim or its dealers.

Secondly, it should be clearly understood that Core supports three types of storage.

1) Internal -- in the HD tray that you can unscrew from the rear

2) rear USB -- you can plug in an external USB drive here

3) network -- typically a NAS drive on the network, or possibly a share on a computer server

You can use one, some or all of these in your chosen setup. Its entirely up to you, your existing infrastructure and how you want to proceed.

Thirdly, another issue is power consumption. naim states on the website specifications page:

Power Consumption

Typical Use (no storage attached): 6.7W
Network Standby (no storage attached): <2W
Deep Sleep: <0.5W

Note: Power consumption will be increased with the addition of user fitted storage (typical increase of approximately 8W for an internal HDD, dependant on the specification of storage).

which is kindof correct, if you view it the right way. Core with no storage (either internal or USB) takes 6.7W when running, <2W when in standby and 0.5W when "off" (hold the power button till the relays click and it turns off)

When running, it can serve to the network. When in standby, it can also serve to the network because it can wake up. When "off" it is "off".

If you have any storage on, or directly attached to the Core (internal or USB), then the storage is powered up when in On mode. This is what you would expect.

However, this storage is kept running even in network standby mode. On mine, the consumption when "on" is around 16.5W and around 15.5W when in network standby. This has two effects -- the power consumption is almost at full on even when in standby, and (as far as I can tell) the drive is kept spinning 24x7 unless you actually go for the long-hold-relay-clicks full Off mode.

The reason for keeping the drive spinning is so that Core can respond to network requests when in standby without having to wait for the drive to spin up and initialise which could take some seconds on a slow spinning disc drive. Maybe in the future there can be an option for "I am using an SSD which should get going very quickly so treat me differently" But thats not there today, at least as far as I can tell.

Storage choices:

There are pros and cons to each storage choice (internal/external/network):

Internal:

Pros:

A one-stop shop for storage. Its built in, you carry it with you if you move your Core to a friends house. You can put a lot of storage in here (up to 8TB). Set it up as the music store and rips go to this drive. And if your network fails, you still have local storage that you can play out through BNC to a Naim DAC or equivalent, although you have no means of actually controlling this.

Cons:

There are various noises about "approved" or "blessed" drives. I have been using a Seagate ST6000VN0041 IronWolf 6TB, internal harddisk, 8,9 cm (3,5 inch), 128 MB Cache, 7200 RPM, SATA 6 Gb/s in the pre-prod core, and it has worked well. However, it gets hot -- 50-55 degrees C. This is within the acceptable temperature range of the drive, so i am not overly concerned about that, although the drive did start making slight whining noises after a lot of use one evening. The drive tray is plastic and so possibly not the best for heat conduction. The Core itself remains very cool to the tough.

Another downside is that this is a singular device -- you need to have a backup solution in place or risk losing everything if the drive fails. It is tempting to plug in a drive and then forget to run backups. The built in backup routines are, shall we say, somewhat rudimentary and skeletal at the moment, but the need to update a backup archive will be significantly determined by the rate of change of your music store. Make sure you run a backup to an external store every time you have ripped a disc or imported some music via front USB.

Overall: its an easy solution, but requires thought and care. Reripping everything because the internal drive fails is not an option.

Rear USB

i have been using the rather lovely Samsung T3 credit card sized USBC 2TB ssd drive hanging off the rear usb socket. Works fine, very portable, very fast. Or you can hang an external USB cage here with a pair of mirrored drives for lots of storage in mirror.

Pros:

Like Internal, except its easy to detach. You could put a dual drive mirrored USB drive pair here, or even have a hot spare on standby, for example, and thus improve the resilience.

Cons:

More wiring complication. Given how hyper sensitive Naim users are to switched mode PSU and locations of vibrating items (HD and internal fans in the USB box) within their fraim, they might find this a little too much to worry about. And the power consumption issues are the same as for Internal despite it being a USB connected storage device. Another issue is that the backup storage is right next to the Core and hence liable to suffer from same threats of power spike (shared mains), or theft if you get burglars.

Overall: its best to use external rear usb for portable SSD to do backups you can (and will!) take away from the Core and put somewhere safe, or to use as a portable transfer storage between two networks. (offsite backup to your holiday home, not mass copying of your friends material, of course)

Network

Pros:

A NAS drive somewhere else in the house, down a length of ethernet which is good on every level (noise, power, heat, theft). You can go for whatever size you like. You can ensure it is mirrored with a hot-standby hard disc ready to go. You can have several of these, and have one for storage and one for backup, using the built in tools for backup provided in the NAS (eg the tools in synology for nas sync between devices). you can set up Dropbox (or equivalent) support so your storage is mirrored into the cloud (synology supports lots of this stuff). Ripping is still easy - just rip to the nas that you have specified on Core. And Core can now shut down to power save mode

Cons:

Its more complex to set up because you need to think about shares and permissions. And you need to think about backup and archive just like internal. but you have the full range of flexibility here, and Core is doing what it does best which is serving out onto the network without worrying about the storage. However, the configuration of the core end has to be done via the IOS (or android when it comes) app because there is no web based management on a Core itself.

However, if you have a grown-up NAS solution then it too can serve out onto the network to your Muso and NDS and... so if you streamed direct from NAS to endpoint, then the use-case for Core is good for ripping (which it does as a somewhat skeletal task at the moment with no metadata editing) or playback via BNC to a Naim NDAC in a larger system (which is what i am doing here).

Choices?

For my retail purchased Core I am probably going to put a 1Tb Samsung SSD within the Core and use that as the Core primary storage. However, I need to do the sums because I have 5k+ of CDs to rip. I will use the backup facilities to archive to NAS on the network, and then treat that as a secondary playout source for other devices (EG doing MP3 sub-rips for iphone for in-car use etc -- Core doesnt (yet) do multiformat rip to MP3, unlike my HDX (or I presume Unitiserve)). Doing this requires a higher spend than going for an internal spinning disc solution, but I am not completely happy with the reality that the disc never spins down in Core, even though there are HD's out there designed for 24x7 operation in video surveillance tasks. The 15W power consumption minimum at all times I can live with in the context of the 150W idling of my old-skool six-pack DBL system which is left on all the time, but it does grate from a green perspective on a new product. Maybe SSD shutdown in standby mode will come in the future.

Hope this helps

Posted on: 28 January 2017 by Ricky Dasler

Good overview there Jon. I was surprised when I noticed my 5TB powered LaCie USB drive kept spinning for a couple of days and not going to sleep when attached to the Core. I wondered if it was because it was a USB 'C' drive, but from what you've noticed it's how the Core currently treats these external USB drives.

I have two Nas drives, but was hoping to use this new USB drive as well. I may still use it and see how long it lasts constantly spinning. A sacrificial lamb maybe.

Cheers

Ricky.

Posted on: 28 January 2017 by Gazza

Have had my core for a week and have ripped 500 discs so far onto the Naim recommended seagate video hdd, no problems. Have backed up to a 4tb seagate usb drive. Have yet to come across a means of finding out how much of the internal hdd is still available on the app?

Posted on: 28 January 2017 by Chag...

Hi Ricky; How does UC compare with your US SSD in your 500 series system then?

Chag -

Posted on: 28 January 2017 by jon h

Gazza posted:
Have had my core for a week and have ripped 500 discs so far onto the Naim recommended seagate video hdd, no problems. Have backed up to a 4tb seagate usb drive. Have yet to come across a means of finding out how much of the internal hdd is still available on the app?

It's in there if you dig. Configure music store etc etc

Posted on: 28 January 2017 by Gazza

Thanks Jon, still a bit nervous with it, press wrong button and it all gets deleted, even though I have it backed up. So thanks again

Posted on: 28 January 2017 by Ricky Dasler

Chag... posted:
Hi Ricky; How does UC compare with your US SSD in your 500 series system then?
Chag -

It's going to be a tricky one to compare for a while as my 552 is away being DR'd and my 500 will be next in a few weeks. So there'll be the 'new' amp break-in thing going on for sometime before any serious Serve comparisons happen.

Posted on: 29 January 2017 by intothevoid

Very nice write-up, thanks Jon.

I'm a die-hard fan of streaming but it makes me think that playing a CD is so much easier!

Posted on: 29 January 2017 by ChrisH

Like the evaluation of the pros and cons of each storage option Jon, makes what seems to be a lot of choice very easy to understand. Thanks for the write up.

Posted on: 29 January 2017 by Chag...

Ha the ritual of selecting and picking the CD box, removing the sleeve, opening the box next to the payer, sometime on the ground, opening the mythic tray, gently placing the silver disc and the puck at the center, circling back the tray in, picking up and closing the box, reaching the chair and playing the magic of the Narcom. But, but what about the HD downloads at the tip of a finger on the iPad then?

Chag -

Posted on: 29 January 2017 by Pcd

Chag... posted:
Ha the ritual of selecting and picking the CD box, removing the sleeve, opening the box next to the payer, sometime on the ground, opening the mythic tray, gently placing the silver disc and the puck at the center, circling back the tray in, picking up and closing the box, reaching the chair and playing the magic of the Narcom. But, but what about the HD downloads at the tip of a finger on the iPad then?
Chag -

Another advantage of streaming you do not have to leave the chair ?

Posted on: 29 January 2017 by Allan Milne

Thank you John, an insightful summary.

I had not thought of the power implications and the continuous HD spinning surprises me.

Don't think I'll look at the UC seriously until my US dies or there is consistent reporting of substantial sound improvements from members via the direct connection to a DAC.

Allan

Posted on: 30 January 2017 by Gazza

Hi Jon, my core only has the logo lit up when ripping, but not during playback. This looks a bit odd when other units are lit up during playback. Is this the same on your core unit ?

Posted on: 30 January 2017 by David Hendon

Gazza posted:
Hi Jon, my core only has the logo lit up when ripping, but not during playback. This looks a bit odd when other units are lit up during playback. Is this the same on your core unit ?

You can adjust that. The default is 20 mins before it goes into network standby (which turns most of the lights off), but in the settings in the Naim app you can make that longer or even never go off if you want.

best

David

Posted on: 30 January 2017 by David Hendon

And yes thanks Jon, your summary at the start of this thread was very interesting and useful.

best

David

Posted on: 10 February 2017 by Daniel H.

I saw the Core at my dealer today. It looks like a formidable machine compared to my Mac Mini!

I already have several hundred albums and playlists made with iTunes on the Mac Mini. I know the music files can be imported to the Core's internal drive. But, what about the playlists? Is there a way to keep all of the playlists?

It would take me months of work to sort out all of the music and put it into playlists on the Core using the Naim app. I really like the Core, but faced with the task of having to do all of those lists again, I would most likely stay with a Mac Mini.

Posted on: 11 February 2017 by ChrisSU

Daniel H. posted:
I saw the Core at my dealer today. It looks like a formidable machine compared to my Mac Mini!
I already have several hundred albums and playlists made with iTunes on the Mac Mini. I know the music files can be imported to the Core's internal drive. But, what about the playlists? Is there a way to keep all of the playlists?
It would take me months of work to sort out all of the music and put it into playlists on the Core using the Naim app. I really like the Core, but faced with the task of having to do all of those lists again, I would most likely stay with a Mac Mini.

The Core firmware and App are still under development, and the issue of migrating existing libraries to it has already been discussed here, so I would suggest you contact Naim support to ask if importing iTunes or other playlists will be officially supported. If it isn't, I'm pretty sure there will be a workaround to do it one way or another.

Posted on: 11 February 2017 by nbpf

Daniel H. posted:
I saw the Core at my dealer today. It looks like a formidable machine compared to my Mac Mini!
...

In which sense? Does it sound better? Does it look better? Does it work better? Does it ... better?

Posted on: 11 February 2017 by MarcusM

nbpf posted:
Daniel H. posted:
I saw the Core at my dealer today. It looks like a formidable machine compared to my Mac Mini!
...
In which sense? Does it sound better? Does it look better? Does it work better? Does it ... better?

Hi nbpf!

For me it was quite clear that the Core sounded better than a Mac. Yes, I also think that it looks a lot better in a hifi rack.

A Mac is obviously better as a computer but I would not like to use a computer to be able to listen to music. A NAS and Ipad is bad enough… cool

/Marcus

Posted on: 11 February 2017 by nbpf

MarcusM posted:
nbpf posted:
Daniel H. posted:
I saw the Core at my dealer today. It looks like a formidable machine compared to my Mac Mini!
...
In which sense? Does it sound better? Does it look better? Does it work better? Does it ... better?
Hi nbpf!
For me it was quite clear that the Core sounded better than a Mac. Yes, I also think that it looks a lot better in a hifi rack.
A Mac is obviously better as a computer but I would not like to use a computer to be able to listen to music. A NAS and Ipad is bad enough…
/Marcus

Thanks Marcus! Does the Core sound better than a Mac as a SPDIF player or as a UPnP server?

Posted on: 11 February 2017 by Innocent Bystander

MarcusM posted:
nbpf posted:
Daniel H. posted:
I saw the Core at my dealer today. It looks like a formidable machine compared to my Mac Mini!
...
In which sense? Does it sound better? Does it look better? Does it work better? Does it ... better?
Hi nbpf!
For me it was quite clear that the Core sounded better than a Mac. Yes, I also think that it looks a lot better in a hifi rack.
A Mac is obviously better as a computer but I would not like to use a computer to be able to listen to music. A NAS and Ipad is bad enough…
/Marcus

A dedicated, optimised and RF isolated computer running the best software atbleast potentially can sound as good as the very best dedicated streamer source - but the further you get from that the less it will be capable.

in this case, what are you comparing:

1) Mac and Core both as store and UPnP server?

2) Or Mac as store and renderer vs Core likewise? If so, what implementation of the Mac - I.e what rendering software? (There can be big differences in sound quality between different software and depending how set up) What output? (Optical or spdif from Mac's soundcard? Usb (dedicated bus?)? If electrical output, any RF isolator?) is the Mac dedicated to this function, with nothing else running on it? Headless?

Also, what system did you hear it through?

With all this information this could be a useful contribution to knowledge about the Core, but is meaningless without.

Posted on: 12 February 2017 by MarcusM

nbpf posted:
Thanks Marcus! Does the Core sound better than a Mac as a SPDIF player or as a UPnP server?

We only tested it as an UPnP server because that’s how I would use it in my system…

/Marcus

Posted on: 12 February 2017 by Simon-in-Suffolk

BTW, I you your source is creating RF noise, an in line isolator is only going to be semi effective... by definition the source will be generating radio.. that is not limited to travelling along conductors ... and so you will need carefully designed and grounded Faraday cages to mitigate elsewhere... so as I say prevention is better than cure... in the audio replay chain I say it is best not to have anything that is creating high levels of noise... as attempts to isolate and mitigate will only go so far...

Posted on: 12 February 2017 by MarcusM

Innocent Bystander posted:
A dedicated, optimised and RF isolated computer running the best software atbleast potentially can sound as good as the very best dedicated streamer source - but the further you get from that the less it will be capable.
in this case, what are you comparing:
1) Mac and Core both as store and UPnP server?
2) Or Mac as store and renderer vs Core likewise? If so, what implementation of the Mac - I.e what rendering software? (There can be big differences in sound quality between different software and depending how set up) What output? (Optical or spdif from Mac's soundcard? Usb (dedicated bus?)? If electrical output, any RF isolator?) is the Mac dedicated to this function, with nothing else running on it? Headless?
Also, what system did you hear it through?
With all this information this could be a useful contribution to knowledge about the Core, but is meaningless without.

Hi Innocent Bystander!

I mixed up the treads a bit. I wrote a short description of my quick comparison between the Core and a Mac but that was in the “Melco-tread”. Somehow I believed it was in this tread. Sorry for that. If I had realized that this was another tread I would off course have wrote more details. What I wrote in the “Melco-tread” was:

“I have quickly compared the Core with a Mac. It was performed like this:

We (the dealer) took a CD. It was ripped in the core and the exact same CD was then ripped in the Mac with “dp-poweramp” (I think it’s called) and stored on the ssd in the Mac.

The test was blind and I did not know which rip was played first. The system used was a Naim Uniti Atom with Chord cables and Dynaudio speakers.

I listened to the first song and after that the dealer changed to the “other” music server. After 5 seconds it was clear that the second rip/server sounded better. We listened to the whole song and I was asked which server was number 1 and 2. I responded: “This was quite easy, first you used the Mac and the second time you used the Core”

It was quite easy to hear the difference. I wonder how big of a difference the Core will make in a system with even higher quality and resolution…

I have not heard a Melco but been thinking about it after all great things I have been reading.

So, will a Melco or a Uniti Core sound best in a high resolution Naim system…? Anybody done the test?

/Marcus”

Well, perhaps that provide a bit more information at least.

So, to try to answer your questions:

Both the Mac and Core was used as a ripper and then as an UPnP server. The system used was a Naim Uniti Atom with Chord Signature cables, Dynaudio Contour 20 standmount speakers on Chord Silent Mount SM7 feet. The room was a lightly acoustically treated room at a dealer.

I’m not so good with computers and cannot answer if the Mac was totally optimized. The Mac belong to the Swedish distributor and he is a very nice and knowledgeable man who have worked with Naim for many years. He uses this Mac computer when he visits different dealers and customers helping them with their systems and performing demos (if I have understood correctly). He’s very meticulous when setting up a Naim system so I would believe that his Mac that he uses on demos is fairly optimized for the purpose. If it uses “the best software available”? I don’t know…

He used “dBpoweramp” to rip the CD on the Mac and I believe that he used Asset UPnP as software.

I hope that this information makes my post less “meaningless”… cool

All I can say is that it was quite easy to hear the difference during a blind test in that particular system with that specific Mac vs Core. This test was not planned but performed since I asked for it and there was time to do it. We were all quite surprised by the difference…

I don’t want to use a computer in my system so a Mac is not for me but if the performance is raised (as much as I experienced during this demo) I would strongly consider a Core or Melco depending of which of them sound the best (for reasonably money)…

/Marcus

Posted on: 12 February 2017 by nbpf

MarcusM posted:
nbpf posted:
Thanks Marcus! Does the Core sound better than a Mac as a SPDIF player or as a UPnP server?
We only tested it as an UPnP server because that’s how I would use it in my system…
/Marcus

Thank Markus! This would suggest that the Core generates less electromagnetic noise (perhaps RF noise or electric noise upstream the power supply) than a Mac. If confirmed, this would be an interesting piece of information for those who want to position their UPnP servers in the vicinity of their streamers, DACs, etc. Best, nbpf

Posted on: 12 February 2017 by Innocent Bystander

Hi Marcus - thanks for the clarification! I had seen your write up in the Melco thread, and understood that as the comparison it was of ripping: But stupidly failed to make the connection with your observation here.

Most people using a computer as a UPnP server don't do anything to optimise it, usually simply being a convenience thing, they have the computer so use it, which is where the advice comes to invest in a NAS. However I don't know what and how much difference optimisation makes to the computer in that function.

My main thought regarding optimisation was when used as a renderer, as a number of us do using dedicated Mac Minis running Audivrana (which seems to be about the best you can get in terms of sound quality, and is pretty close to Melco - I did a brief comparison of my Mac Mini setup against Melco N1A through Dave, Bryston 4Bsst2 and PMC Fact12, when there wasn't any immediately discernible difference). Of course, all Melco, Core etc are are optimised computers in their own right, though with the potentially greater benefit of wider-ranging optimisation.