Rediscovering my LPs

yeti42 posted:

Bert Schurink posted:

I understand that you guys love your LP12 given that special analog sound aspect of it. However there are Lao quite a number of downsides as compared to digital.

...and I always have the feeling that people get even a tick more of the special analogue excitement with also switching to Valve Amps....., but that is just me talking about the extreme purity in the other direction. 

I can unfortunately not explore this route, as I have cats...

Now that's a rationalisation not a reason. Plenty of people had and have both, you just need a sensible turntable with a lid you can close when it's playing, not something that looks like it belongs on the dogger bank. You don't lose that much sound quality playing with the lid on, not as much as you do playing digital. If it was children I could understand, then no more than a basic Rega and a MM with a replaceable stylus might be sensible for the duration but to go without altogether!

For my cats the like to lie on the rack. Now the top is a sat receiver and they can't really do harm there. In the case of a player it would be troublesome......, so it's not just an excuse.

2ndly I heavily invested in the digital playback and don't see myself investing a similar amount in addition to have an alternative listening experience....

Dungassin posted:

I taught my daughters how to use my LP12 (with Archiv/Karma) as soon as they were 8 years old.  Never had any problem with them.

Similar - I allowed my daughters to operate the CDP from about 4 and certainly when they were 7/8 could use the Ariston we had at the time.

Dungassin posted:

I taught my daughters how to use my LP12 (with Archiv/Karma) as soon as they were 8 years old.  Never had any problem with them.

When my daughter was about 2 she ripped the cantilever out of my Linn Troika - but as well as an insurance claim I got an Audiotech wall-shelf, so not all bad.  

Chris Dolan posted:

Dungassin posted:

I taught my daughters how to use my LP12 (with Archiv/Karma) as soon as they were 8 years old.  Never had any problem with them.

When my daughter was about 2 she ripped the cantilever out of my Linn Troika - but as well as an insurance claim I got an Audiotech wall-shelf, so not all bad.  

My first born son as a toddler, bent the cantilever of my Asaka, the insurance "coughed up" and I got a Klyde to replace and also an Audiotech wall shelf. I did however box the LP12 for a few years when no. 2 son arrived, he was even more inquisitive so thought it better to be on the safe side!

yeti42 posted:

Or cutting a disc and replaying it filteres out the digital hash (meaning everything that makes digital replay less satisfying) more effectively than domestic digital replay can manage. 

The major drawbacks with vinyl are that to get the digital beating performance, you have to be willing and able to learn how to set it up properly or be prepared to pay someone to do it for you and keeping the records clean. It really comes down to whether you can be arsed.

Ah, I understand - so to "improve" digital it needs to add additional filtering and compression, plus a modicum of background noise.

Ideally, of course the filtering should gradually be increased slightly over a 20 minute period then reset to mimic the effect of reducing velocity across a side of an LP, and to be really pernickety it should be different for left and right channels to mimic the greater effect of the changing angle of incidence the outer of the groove, though that might be stretching things to an extreme...

Innocent Bystander posted:

Other than the physical album sleeve, and of course nostalgia, I struggle to understand the attraction of vinyl....Given that a significant number of people on this forum have identified Hugo as having an 'analogue-like sound', however you interpret that, maybe those of you who still prefer vinyl over various digital solutions including the best Naim has to offer should audition a DAC from the Hugo family.....

The attraction's very easy to understand - it sounds better. The Chord DACs are very good, but not up to a good bit of vinyl played on a well-fettled LP12 (other record players are available).

May be those of you that still prefer digital solutions including the best Chord has to offer should audition a record player from the LP12 family......

Jonn posted:

May be those of you that still prefer digital solutions including the best Chord has to offer should audition a record player from the LP12 family......

Well, I have a good friend/brother-in-law with an LP12, and he always said vinyl sounded better than digital - until I got my Hugo. And now with Dave he thinks mine sounds better than his...  (However, that's not  a formal comparison in that we haven't played both sources in both systems, nor trying to find the same mastering of the same recordings. And his isn't an ultimate implementation of turntable/arm/cartridge.)

Of course it is down to what each individual likes about the replay, and don't get me wrong, I am not in any way knocking vinyl as a medium that quite a few people clearly enjoy, though I think that for accuracy to the original recording, well-implementd digital can beat vinyl, but preferances are often down more to to nuances of sound shaping, just as some people prefer PRaT emphasised, or others are happiest without deep bass, or with smooth softening of the sound, etc, etc.

Jonn posted:

May be those of you that still prefer digital solutions including the best Chord has to offer should audition a record player from the LP12 family......

My Rega may not be in the same class as an LP12 but it cost many times more than my Hugo and I know which I listen to most and which I couldn't do without.  Hint, it's not the Rega.  Others may have different views depending on their tastes.

The vinyl vs. digital "argument" is futile; as Mr Bystander points out in the end it's down to individual taste. There's no doubt is costs considerably less to acquire a first-class digital source than a vinyl-based one and if I didn't have a large vinyl collection I doubt if I'd be going down the vinyl path nowadays. It's worth noting that in the course of the very many hi-fi get-togethers of the similarly afflicted I've attended over the years we inevitably end up listening to LPs.

For me it's not a matter of preferring one over another but how good LP reproduction can be on a properly fettled system. With over a 1000 lps collected over the years they form a useful alternative when BT let's me down with poor connection speeds or on those rare occasions when my NDS refuses to talk to me. I have Vinyl, Reel to Reel, VHF as well as various digital and streaming sources and they all their place - as we say variety is.......

Supercut LPs are something else even if 45rpm means shuffling out of the listening chair to change sides - think of the exercise

tonym posted:

It's worth noting that in the course of the very many hi-fi get-togethers of the similarly afflicted I've attended over the years we inevitably end up listening to LPs.

How much of that is primarily for nostalgia reasons? I'm not thinking of nostalgia for the physical sleeve to hold and view, though that is a definite attraction, but for many people who do have both vinyl and digital collections things don't tend to be duplicated to any significant degree, and vinyl tends to be more of the older material, with pre-digital stuff possibly almost exclusively vinyl, so when a few  of us old fogies gathered together, the wine bringing out a tendency to play the old stuff of our youth, vinyl becomes the natural medium. At least that would apply to me if I hadn't digitised or otherwise replaced my vinyl - not  that playing the old stuff is by any means confined to when gathered with others...!

Innocent Bystander posted:

tonym posted:

It's worth noting that in the course of the very many hi-fi get-togethers of the similarly afflicted I've attended over the years we inevitably end up listening to LPs.

How much of that is primarily for nostalgia reasons? I'm not thinking of nostalgia for the physical sleeve to hold and view, though that is a definite attraction, but for many people who do have both vinyl and digital collections things don't tend to be duplicated to any significant degree, and vinyl tends to be more of the older material, with pre-digital stuff possibly almost exclusively vinyl, so when a few  of us old fogies gathered together, the wine bringing out a tendency to play the old stuff of our youth, vinyl becomes the natural medium. At least that would apply to me if I hadn't digitised or otherwise replaced my vinyl - not  that playing the old stuff is by any means confined to when gathered with others...!

One very, very content owner of a CDS3/555PS CD player here, plus circa 3 times as many CDs as LPs.
I also buy around 2 CDs for every LP that I buy.

However, I don't fit the generalised, nostalgic group to which Innocent Bystander refers above.

The CD player is great, as is a well fettled CD555/555PSDR or Melco-Chord Dac source (thank you J.N., 911GT3R & TonyM).

However, for musical insight and outright enjoyment, a good turntable (LP12, Vertere etc.) & well recorded/pressed record still seems so very much better to these cloth ears.  

Why 2 CDs for every LP?  Simple really; 2 reasons.  
1) I like to rip the CD for the streaming system & for the iphone used as a source in the car.  Ripping LPs seems a lot harder to do.
2) vinyl records are often twice the price of the CD, to try the CD first, then only buy the LP if I really like it

Ultimately though, this vinyl vs CD vs streaming debate is a bit futile.  I use all three (+ radio).

Best regards, FT

It is a futile debate but I don't subscribe to this argument that vinyl has to be expensive.   Rega P3/good cartridge/phono stage is very hard to beat. 

Best regards,

Lindsay

Alba1320 posted:

 

One caveat to the above - I've no experience with modern vinyl; Why not? Well, given that digital is likely to be involved at some point of the process, just how analogue is modern vinyl? (not to mention the premium price that it attracts). As such, I have no plans to add to my vinyl collection, so I guess that my (futile?) search for genuine musical satisfaction from CD will continue...

 

I have some more (relatively) modern vinyl which came from a Digital source.  On Every Street by Dire Straits is one such where the vinyl absolutely smokes the CD. But whilst I agree that generally vinyl is the greater listening experience my CD still makes great music.

Regards,

Lindsay

It's good we all like different things in this hobby. Vinyl, for all its shortcomings, is a medium enjoyed by many.  Analogue or Digital can both make great music when done properly and subjectively neither is 'better', just different. 

A new paradigm: a source for every mood. 

And the more the merrier

Alba1320 posted:

As with most things in the world of HI-Fi, it's in the 'ear of the beholder'; For me, the 'superiority' of vinyl has nothing to do with nostalgia etc., it's simply that no CD replay I've heard sounds as natural, as convincingly like music, and ultimately, as enjoyable as even modestly good vinyl replay. I WISH that it wasn't so, as I have many more CDs than records, but, to my ears, it is.

I couldn't care less about the 'technical superiority' of CD, as I don't 'listen' to specs. or measurements, nor do I have any interest in 'impressive HI-Fi sound'; my system is there for one purpose only, to maximise the enjoyment of music in my collection. Isn't that the same for everyone, you may ask? Well, given that discussion about the performance of Hi-Fi systems often seem to talk of soundstage, imaging, 'neutrality', 'accuracy' etc., often with precious little mention of anything to do with music, I'm not so sure. (personally, I don't know how any the recordings in my music collection actually sound, so how I am supposed to determine if the reproduction is 'accurate', simply by listening, I'm not sure...)

One caveat to the above - I've no experience with modern vinyl; Why not? Well, given that digital is likely to be involved at some point of the process, just how analogue is modern vinyl? (not to mention the premium price that it attracts). As such, I have no plans to add to my vinyl collection, so I guess that my (futile?) search for genuine musical satisfaction from CD will continue...

(Just to be clear, none of the above is supposed to be 'provocative' or is designed to 'ruffle any feathers', it is merely an honest attempt at expressing my feelings on the subject)

I find myself in the same boat. I've tried and tried and tried to get on with digital and can't, except when played through decidedly lo-fi systems such in my car or on earbuds from my phone. When played through my "big" system it varies from at worst painful to at best "meh". 

I have a few modern vinyl purchases, usually bought in response to hearing the music in lo-fi from the radio in the car or my daughter's purchases (I tap into her itunes library:-)) Without exception they have been a disappointment. Whilst they're demonstrable "better" than the CD (possibly on account of being 24/48 rather than 16/44?) I've found them at best unengaging. I no longer buy anything unless I'm certain it's AAA. (Have Moth will clean). There are some modern releases such as "Applewood Road" recorded live to 1/4" two track tape that are excellent but in the genre's I'm into they're few and far between.

I suspect that the with digital audio its a personal biological thing, a spectrum where I'm way off to one side. I guess a bit like my wife's inability to appreciate red wine, or even an oaked white, or worse still my son's dislike of balsamic vinegar and cinnamon. In view of those I guess I should count my blessings, things could be much worse.

I haven't heard any of the Chord DAC's yet though given the response others I certainly shall. Maybe they can shift digital reproduction out to my end of the spectrum.

Willy.

I've got a CDS1 which is great , but even on some supposedly good recordings I can hear the digital effect which to my ears sounds pretty bad. There are a few CD's which I would like to get on vinyl. 

I think you'll find any perceived so called digital effects is largely  down to the quality and approach of the DAC used.. not all DACs are the same, just like not all cartridges are the same, and DACs reconstruct the audio in different ways.. again like vinyl, the digital to analogue process is lossy and can add artefacts. Also worth noting in very recent years there has been significant advantages in DAC accuracy in audio replay due to very much greater levels of low power consuming signal processing.

its probably also worth considering that most relatively modern vinyl is created from digital masters, so the vinyl replay is actually part of the digital reconstruction process... you might just prefer that kind of digital audio reconstruction filter.. kind of think of your vinyl replay chain as its own  signal processor...

Funny old game...

I own a entry level Vinyl rig and a Chord DAC, both are quite enjoyable actually....

Being a rock fan, I bought the latest Bon Jovi album on Vinyl and CD, but it does sound considerably better on the Chord DAC... But both are immensely enjoyable and both have that P.R.A.T.....

Maybe I need a LP12 or other top of the line turntable like Rega Rp10, but..... Chord will be releasing their upsampling Blu 2 transport which will have immense processing power, something like 760 core CPU, the increase in pace of innovation in the digital source is moving very nicely now, maybe digital with this kind of processing power sounds as good as the best analog sources?

On pure analog recordings, the turnable sounds quite a lot better, and that is when you can hear the limitations of the ADC side, and lucky for us Chord is releasing such a machine soon,....  For me any DAC no matter how good it is, is still at the mercy of the mastering processing and if applicable transfer from analog master tapes.

Strangely digitally recorded and mastered recordings very good to me nowadays on my Chord DAC, maybe analog tape isn't as transparent as we think it is and some losses take place there..... 

 I recall Barry Diament posts here a few years ago, saying with good machines 192/24 bit was really very faithful to the live mike feeds.

A well very known mastering engineers also did say to me privately, very happy to not deal with the problems of analog tape anymore

and from the sound of the Tunnel of Love album from Bruce Springsteen album maybe he has a point?

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

its probably also worth considering that most relatively modern vinyl is created from digital recordings

True, and if you're an old duffer like me whose vinyl listening is comprised largely of pressings from the all analog era, these LPs have an essence that modern pressings don't capture. Maybe it's the analog tape in the former recording process, maybe it's the modern acceptance/expectation of heavy compression in newer pressings, or maybe it's that today's vinyl masterers have lost something in the craft that existed in vinyl's heyday.

Could also be the fact that modern LPs seem insistent on the marketing hype of heavy-weight pressings, which IME adds nothing to the sonics of an LP and likely compromises the VTA of TT optimized for the old standard-weight LPs.

Joerand, I agree, in fact I have found some modern vinyl quite disappointing.. it does make you wonder what percentage of people buying it actually listen to it.

But I have some old 1960s recordings using I believe 2 and 4 track tape and they really do sound rather good.. I woundnt say that realistic no doubt due to the not insignificant limitations of analogue tape from that era, but they do have a lovely immediacy and flow to them.

As far as digital masters, it was many of the mid to late 80s digital masters I found and still find poor... no doubt again due to the then limitations... but wind forward a few decades and digital masters can be quite wonderful.. and of course are now ubiquitous. 

I have to say listening to Coldplay's latest album on Vinyl album, and then on Chord Mojo, they do sound equally enjoyable musically, quite remarkable, never thought the day would come where such ability was available in a small DAC.

You can't take your NDS to the office with you.....  

Come to think of it, you can't exactly bring the uniti atom to the office either (well not my office at least)

Come on Naim, the world is changing... when are we going to have the Naim portable DAC... ?