What upgrade hasn't worked for you?

CDX2 - replaced a CD5/FC2. Lasted about 3 months before it was replaced with a CDSII. Even with an added XPS, it failed to flow in a 82/2XHC/250/Allaes system compared to the CD5 combo. My partner summed it up thusly "it almost seems to be saying you're not watching me mum, look at me, look at me". Edgy, bright and almost too sharp in its transients...

regards,

Giles

Massimo Bertola posted:

Haim Ronen posted:

Massimo,

Your Luxman venture deserves a topic of its own to allow more people to share your experience beyond the ones who stumble over your post here.

Haim,

if you really think so, I may be starting a post shortly, reassuming the path that brought me to this move – and back to the future. It may not be so interesting, but it may help discouraging some from too much mass tourism inside Naim World.

Ciao

M

Massimo,

You are the one and only Giacomo Casanova of the Hi Fi world.

Haim

FangfossFlyer posted:

Corry posted:

In almost 3 decades of the hi-fi game, I can recall only 3 things haven't worked for me to the extent that I had to get rid of them:

●  Roksan Xerxes turntable (my first, bought in 1988, and replaced after 6 months with an LP12)

●  Tiger Paw Khan top plate

●  Tiger Paw sKale counterweight

On the other hand, if this thread was titled "Upgrades that worked, but were underwhelming," the list would be a great deal longer.

And despite my 2 for 2 with Tiger Paw, I have great respect for them, and I'll be interested to check out their Tranquility bearing upgrade for the Linn, if and when it arrives on these shores.

Hi,

Can you say more about your Khan and sKale experiences leading to you replacing them?

How long did you live with them and was it a case of them sounding really impressive and clear at first but then after a while you missed something?

Regards,

Richard

Richard,

Regarding the Khan, I auditioned that at my dealers via two identical LP12s, one with Khan, one without. My recollection from that session is that the Khan brought a pleasing solidity to the sound, and reduced the tendency for things to get strident at higher volumes. But when I had it installed in my own LP12, playing in my own system, I never really got along with it. The sound seemed to have lost much of its tunefulness, and it all seemed a bit dead and artificial. I eventually asked my dealer to pay me a visit to check it out, as I suspected that the installation was defective, however, he was happy with both the installation and the resulting sound. As he’s been my dealer for over 20 years, and I trust his integrity and expertise, while accepting that our tastes aren’t identical, I decided that there was no alternative but to get rid of the Khan and reinstate the original top plate. After putting on the first record with the old plate, the sound I’d been missing flooded out of the speakers, which was a relief. At the time, demand for Khans was high and supply was low, so I sold it for the same price as I bought it.

Regarding the sKale, I took a total punt on that. I was persuaded by the theory (reduced moment of inertia, etc.) and by the universal praise it received. I was aware that it was very finicky in terms of installation, so I took great care with that. My initial observation was that it seemed to open up the upper midrange and treble in a way that was very friendly to e.g. female vocals, but it seemed to favour the parts at the expense of the whole. Even though more detail was coming out, I felt like the sound had lost some of its previous naturalness, coherence and expressiveness. After a bit more fiddling around, back into the box it went. It’s a lovely object, beautifully made, and I may well give it a shot again.

Despite all that, I’m still keen on checking out the Tranquility. My understanding is that it’s something you can install yourself, even if a dealer visit is recommended for ultimate sound quality. It’s still very new, and I’m aware of only one detailed (breathless, fanboyish) review, in the blue place. But if a consensus emerges, especially from people whose tastes seem aligned with mine, I’d be very keen to borrow one for a few days.

All the best,

Colm

I have a feeling I lost a post somewhere... Or did I just dream of it?

M

Corry,

Thanks for the reply as it is most interesting as sometimes something similar happens to me.

Where new upgrades/ products sound fine with detail and insight etc. but then after a while I get bored, loose interest and miss something. Then when I revert back I Recover the sound I grew up with.

I am of a view that I fell in love with the sound and vibe of my Linn/Naim system back in the 80's and have been building on it ever since. So much so that new things may bring something that loads of people rave about but for me it does not build on that original sound and vibe that I fell in love with all those years ago so back it goes to my dealer.

Richard

analogmusic posted:

Hi Massimo

would you please be able to say what exactly about your various Naim components didn't get along with you?

I can't really imagine life without my Naim system, so keen to know what you don't like about the sound, and what you think should be improved. 

Hi analog,

a few things have happened since you posted the above, and some time has elapsed, not leaving things unchanged.

I had started with: it was never ok, I was always changing and in the end I had to acknowledge failure and consider the hypothesis that the problem was not me, but Naim. In reality, the problem had always been me, but it took me a lot of time to become fully aware of it.

Naim has nothing wrong as a manufacturer of engineered things that sound (as they more or less used to define themselves): I may like a piece more and another less, but that it the way Naim serves a large market (I am not talking numbers now, but the hugely wide range of cultural and psychologic human types that have Naim in common – something very clear on this forum). So, two items so widely different as a UnitiLite and a SuperUniti – agile, nervous, entertaining the former, a complete bore to my ears the latter – can sit side by side on the same shelf and share a tag, Uniti, just because they share an amp and a streaming function.

If you really are curious to know what I like more and what less – or, to put it differently, what brought me to buy a certain piece three or more times and another just once, and to resell it quickly – let's say that I was sufficiently fascinated by Naim's conceptual, sonic and engineering territory to be stimulated to try. As long as I could buy 2nd hand, I did. So I have lukewarmly loved the Nait – my first Naim amp – because although limpid and plastic in its voicing, I found it lean, and not powerful enough. I have discovered that I love power, and that such a thing as Not Enough Power exists. The 42.5 didn't seem to bring much more juice to the party, but it was a preamp, and I had never had a preamp in my life. A little greyer than the Nait, I first added a 140, which was more powerful than the Nait but also a little more undisciplined; I liked it but I had the feeling of being losing something. Then came a 160, which made me think of a tax collector crossing a dangerous neighbourhood – trying to look authoritative and totally unobtrusive at the same time. When I compared it to my Audio Innovations Classic 25 into Magneplanars, it was like comparing a ripe peach to an unripe banana. The 90, a sort of beefier Nait, was lovely but I am not for miniature pictures, I need scale.

In recent times, I have had CD5, CD5x, CD5i, DVD5, CDX2 and CDS3 as sources; Nait5i, Nait 5, Nait XS, Supernait1 and SuperUniti as integrated; 112, AV2, 202, 282 as preamps and 150, 150x, 200, 200DR and 250.2 as power amps (not counting a 175 that shortly served surround duties). Some of these more than once. And I have had SBLs, N-Sats, Arivas, Credo and S-400s, and have demoed Allaes at home.

My mistake, in all of this time, has simply been that of assuming that within such a varied, aimed and cleverly designed and marketed range of products one (I) would sooner or later find his perfect Naim. This is not possible. No piece of equipment can miraculously satisfy all the criteria of a single listener, provided the listener is aware of his criteria and the room and speakers play their part at perfection. So I was never happy, until I decided that the culprit was Naim, and all I had to do was exit quickly and abruptly and go back to the more classic, 'universal' type of audio as embodied by the luxurious, Japanese products of a completely different culture.

Enter the Luxman L-590 AXII – but also a sudden period of mental disease, in which I feel the effect of a suddenly interrupted addiction. The Luxman has stayed in its box for a couple of weeks without any curiosity or lust on my part to take it off and make it sound. When I did, I heard a luminous voice, a fine detail, high image, deep scenery, great class and the type of object that, being a car instead of an amp, would be the classy limousine with which the smart guy in the film is carried from the hotel to a party. Then, I decided to compare it to my b-i-l Andrea's (a true Naim fanatic in disguise, owner of a seven boxes system) Supernait, and in a few painful moments the image collapsed vertically, became flat as Audrey Hepburn's bosom when portraying a nun, the top treble became 'lower' and the sense of music came back instantaneously, with timbres, reality, rhythm and unassumingness.

Now the Luxman is ready to go, the SN is still here along with a CDX2 and N-Sats and I have probably finally learned that what you have to find in the Naim range is a compromise, what includes most of what you like and least of what you don't. And it's not even true that the more you climb the stair the more you approach absolute perfection, it is not true: the 555 - 552 - PSs - Nap 500 - S-600s of Roberto is not music in the home, is a psychotropic experience, in which you are geo-relocated inside the recording and you become like Jeff Bridges in the first Tron. Exceptional, but not a distensive experience.

So, what I like in the end, at the terminal of my search and acceptance of compromises? I love the CDX2, I love the Supernait (yes, the one with the Dac that all the smart alecks now snub) and I love the N-Sats. I am not sure that I love the *caps anymore, I hate the Snaics, I am indifferent to the HiLine, I deeply respect the Lavender and have resumed a perfectly personal, logistic and functional relationship with the NAC A5.

As for the Luxman, it's like a Lexus waiting for a home, so hopefully it won't be long before it finds one.

Best

Max

Caro Max - there is a certain parallel in the Bible. Something to do with a prodigal son returnig....

Enjoy the music!

Adam

Adam Zielinski posted:

Caro Max - there is a certain parallel in the Bible. Something to do with a prodigal son returnig....

Enjoy the music!

Adam

 

Erratum: replace 'parallel' with 'parable'

I prefer 'parallel', but parable is more geometrically akin to what my path was.. Anyway, biblical parallels tend to reinforce some people's idea of Naim as a cult. My resurrected vision of a stereo system is that of a quality entertaining appliance.

M

Max, thank you for a really fascinating post. The Supernait paired with a CDX2 is a favourite combination of mine - they complement one another extremely well.

I have just one question; what about Kylie Minogue?

Adam Zielinski posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

Caro Max - there is a certain parallel in the Bible. Something to do with a prodigal son returnig....

Enjoy the music!

Adam

 

Erratum: replace 'parallel' with 'parable'

Both are valid here.

Max thanks for your post. It is brilliant how you can put feelings and observations in words. If you have not written a book yet, please write one. Umberto passed away so there is some vacancy there.

On topic: it is most remarkable how people fall in love with the SuperNait 1. It is generally not appreciated too much by the hifi guys but it does the majority of the things very, very well. It has good control of the majority of the loudspeakers, is very good in dynamics, is most versatile because it has a Dac on board.

There is another topic started by AMUSED who ended up hapilly with 1 too.

FangfossFlyer posted:

Corry,

Thanks for the reply as it is most interesting as sometimes something similar happens to me.

Where new upgrades/ products sound fine with detail and insight etc. but then after a while I get bored, loose interest and miss something. Then when I revert back I Recover the sound I grew up with.

I am of a view that I fell in love with the sound and vibe of my Linn/Naim system back in the 80's and have been building on it ever since. So much so that new things may bring something that loads of people rave about but for me it does not build on that original sound and vibe that I fell in love with all those years ago so back it goes to my dealer.

Richard

Richard,

It’s good that you have a solid, durable reference against which to compare prospective upgrades. I do have some fond memories of the classic 1980s Linn/Naim “flat earth” scene, but the good vibes are more to do with the sense of excitement around the philosophy (and nostalgia) and less with the sound itself. Even at the time, it was clear to me that, for all its virtues, that particular sound had lots of deficits. One rookie error I made early on went something like this: since I’m about to buy a more expensive hi-fi than any I’ve heard before, and since I’m auditioning only carefully vetted components, anything I buy will easily exceed my expectations. Big mistake! It’s a little bit like someone who’s used to $10 bottles of wine going to their local off licence and dropping $250 on a big name bottle – the price tag guarantees only the potential for a better experience, but gives you many more ways to be disappointed.

With upgrades generally, my abiding experience is of being underwhelmed. You read all the time of jaw dropping improvements, of hours lost with LP jackets scattered around the floor, and so on. That’s something I’ve rarely experienced. Most of the genuine upgrades I’ve made involve a slow recognition of a fundamental improvement, of an increased sense of rightness in the sound, and I tend to appreciate them retrospectively, rather than in the moment. Months might go by, and I’ll notice that I’m listening to more music, and to a wider range of music genres and styles. I’ll also feel inclined to dig out records I haven’t listened to in decades. Having said that, I feel fortunate in having made relatively few wrong turns.

I also regard my relationship with the Naim sound as “U-shaped”. I liked the 1980s sound, for all its flaws, and I’m irrationally attached to my 1988 chrome bumper 250. I liked the olive sound a bit less – it seemed to become more forward, aggressive, and brittle, to my ears – although the 72 was something special. There were certainly times, during the dark days of the 90s, when I wondered if I should investigate other brands. But then the classic series came along, and this seemed to address most of the things that bothered me. So in the larger scheme of things, I’m feeling optimistic.

Another change I’ve become aware of is that, when I think of upgrades now, it’s to do with absolute improvements in the sound – what changes can I make to get closer to the music? But for at least half of the three decades I’ve been at this caper, upgrading was synonymous with addressing deficits, dealing with a sound that was somewhere on a continuum between fatiguing and boring. I’m happy to be well past that struggle now, although I’m still not in audio nirvana (which is a depressing thought in itself). I believe there’s a pre-loved 552 somewhere in my future, and if that doesn’t shift the needle by a critical amount, I may well do some radical downgrading to a much simpler system, as others on this forum have done. Time will tell!

All the best,

Colm

A Croft Super Micro III preamp with my LP12, around 1991.

C.

Richard Dane posted:

I have just one question; what about Kylie Minogue?

This is going to never be understood by anyone here...   Ok: last night I answered analog music, but then I mysteriously lost the post (and asked you about it). I more or less told the same story I have posted now, but drew some parallels (not parables..) and in one I imagined that the the original Nait was like Kylie Minogue while the 140 was like Oscar Levant... My medicaments are beginning to kick in... Who knows why it came to my mind.. 

Christopher_M posted:

A Croft Super Micro III preamp with my LP12, around 1991.

C.

A friend of mine has a Croft Supermicro A or something, and I sincerely believe that given the build quality of such a type of product and the amount of schemes available since the mid-50s for free, why spend money for a hand made ugly box when with some time and patience one can make one oneself? Not to mention the sound, which has turned his beautiful pair of Albarry 408 monos into a pair of Sleeping Beauties.

But mine was not a judgmental remark.. 

It took a Pink Triangle record player to make the Croft sound right it my system. Because our game is about systems not individual units.

C.

Thank you Massimo for your post. Hope that you find musical satisfaction with CDX2 and Supernait.

Ardbeg10y posted:

Max thanks for your post. It is brilliant how you can put feelings and observations in words. If you have not written a book yet, please write one. Umberto passed away so there is some vacancy there.

I have, and I really love writing. Thanks, indeed, for your kind remark. But I am totally unpublished.

Did you have any subject in mind? I accept suggestions, and could definitely share McCartney's attitude:

Ciao

M

Christopher_M posted:

It took a Pink Triangle record player to make the Croft sound right it my system. Because our game is about systems not individual units.

C.

I know, we have discussed this a thousand times when I was (or you were) changing a piece at a time. Yet,  you now have a Sondek and a Stageline so let's celebrate the merits of good industrial build quality too.

M.

HI Massimo,

I read your post a few times, I noted some interesting points such as the full 500 series is not music in the home, but rather bring inside the recording... I have heard the very system you talk about but with Sonus Faber speakers (the top Stradivari) - other friends who have heard the system say it is like "live music" being played at home.

I also noted that you have had all Naim systems mostly.

I think this maybe some kind of expectation gap, as you listen to live music in your professional life, and coming back to Naim hi-fi may seem different, hi-fi is a compromise, and there is a gap from Hi-fi to live music. Naim also say this themselves.

It is interesting to note the origins of Naim, and the motivations of the founder of Naim, it is there in the review of the NAP 250, which was written by one of our forum members, Andrew Everard.

But in a nutshell, it would appear that Julian was a Rock fan and wanted to create an amplifier that would re-create the excitement of a live concert. In my view, the success of the brand is a testament to his vision.

Later Naim amplifiers have become more tonally neutral as I understand (I only heard the olive series twice, and preferred the classic series).

I don't think in my view that the Naim amplifiers have any issues, but as Richard Dane said, source first, and in my many experiments over the years, I have come to agree with that principle.

I wonder how that 500 series system you heard would sound with some pure analog sourced vinyl with a top flight vinyl rig?

The reason I say this, is because of an interesting comment made by one forum member of another forum who observed that at one of US hi-fi shows, one particular manufacturer (not Naim by the way) would switch from digital to Vinyl whenever a particularly important journalist would walk into the room.

Personally I don't have any issues with the CD555, it is a fine CD player which grabs your attention and makes any CD engaging. Maybe it is a "front row' type of live concert experience, but that is the way it was designed.

At the same time, I do note you love the CDX2.

I do understand where you coming from, in a way, but would be keen to know if you still have this "struggle" with Naim amplifiers, while trying out different sources? Not sure if you have, I do remember you did try some other amplifiers like Rega maybe?