Buying and maintaining a Naim system out of UK - is it worth it?

oh dear.... but I am sure Naim will help you out.... good luck.  The analog amps like SN2 have very little in them that can go wrong.

Sorry to hear.

My SN1 is almost 10 yrs old, gets daily torture and is still alive and kicking (the speakers around). I wish your much younger SN the same.

+ I vaguely remember some older posts on this error 61. Have you contacted Naim Support?

Sorry to hear about the misfortune. Hopefully you would be able to get it sorted out without spending too much money.

My Naim gear are all analogue preamps and amplifiers so I would expect them to be reliable. My NAC 202 and NAP 200 are more than 15 years old now and still going strong. I am not expecting any failure (touch wood) other than capacitors needing replacement ie. an amp service.

Bobby, sorry to hear of the issue.  

AFAIK, Naim don't supply repair parts directly to customers, only to authorised service centres and distributors who can best provide the support and work required to have Naim kit back to prime health.  Your distributor is a good guy so I seriously doubt he's looking to gouge you on the repair.  I assume you have your dealer involved on this - have they had a conversation with the distributor about this failure.  Often this is where extra value of local purchase and support lies, and maybe there's room for some concession? You have nothing to lose by asking.

15+ years of Naim ownership in Turkey, nothing gone wrong, this is one of the factors in my choice,build quality, touch wood also

Bobby, I've been doing some background research on your behalf to see what can be done.  

I think it's only fair to the Australian distributor to note on this thread that the unit in question was not an officially imported unit but one supplied in 2012 for sale in Saudi Arabia, from where I believe you have confirmed you purchased it.  

As such, any warranty is between you and the distributor, which is also effectively underwritten by the factory for the first year.  

I'm told that the required parts have been sent by the Austrailian distributor and the local dealer is standing by with their engineer to fit it for you.  What has happened is unfortunate but it does sound like you're getting good support from the local crew for a unit from which they haven't seen a single penny (and may even have potentially lost a few due to a lost sale?) so I think under the circumstances it's only fair that they charge their going rate for this service.

As I say, the distributor Chris Murphy is definitely one of the good guys and I really don't think he's out to gouge anyone.  If you're a Naim owner and you have issues then typically he wants to help as best he can.

Very sorry to hear about your bad luck.

It does take a bit of contemplation to appreciate the nature of these things. As with any luxury item owned far from the source, there are always delays and costs incurred by the owner that neither the owner nor the manufacturer can fully predict or control. The same is true for rare cars or even hi-end household appliances. And your question is spot on: we must consider whether the benefit of owning the item outweighs much of the extra hassle and expense that comes with it.

Then there is unit failure. Even items with truly excellent reliability records can and do fail. You can buy the most reliabile item on earth and still be the winner of the lucky 0,0001% defective ticket. Buy enough items often enough and you're bound to be caught out on something. To the winner of the unlucky ticket it is always proof that the product is not reliable after all and since misery loves company there will always be other unlucky souls to compare their bad luck stories with. I know - I've been there. It is so frustrating and the tempatation is to feel like you've been had.

In my case there is not even a Naim dealer or distributor in my country and any time an item needs to be serviced it needs to go back to the dealer in the UK. I knew that going into this there was going to be some issues but I failed to appreciate the true scale of expense and delay. None caused by Naim but all unavoidable. International freight charges, insurance, customs end excise charges on stuff I already own each way (customs both here and in the UK are right bastards that way regardless of what paperwork you spent hours preparing for them), I feel for your plight but also envy simply having a dealer network in your country. The DR upgrade on my 250 ended up costing so much with shipping and customs charges that if I had just sold the unit and bought a brand new 300DR I would have broke even.

Eventually recapping and service of 6 boxes will come up and I may or may not decide to just ditch the whole lot and start again. Cost-wise it may be cheaper. I love the Naim sound and nothing does it for me like Naim and possible a few other brands (which also do not exist here except Linn). It puts a big question mark on whether it is really worth, as you say, owning Naim outside of a country with an authorised service agent.

A family member into cars has the same issue. Any issue with some of them beyond trivial matters and the whole car has to be loaded on a plane or ship to the UK for 6 montns work at the mothership and then back again. The costs have nearly brought them to tear too.

I am an Australian owner of Naim product, and one of my reasons for buying it was because of their amazing longevity and build quality. I have shied away from products which offer great sound but uncertain servicing in the past because it always ends in tears.

Having said that my NAC-N 172 has developed the annoying habit of spontaneously muting. Reading online it appears that this is a reasonably common fault, relating to the capacitance switch built into the Naim logo on the front panel. It comes and goes, and at this stage not often enough to get me to have it fixed but that day is approaching.

I am sure that the switch is a piece of OEM electronics which has been carefully chosen by Naim, and as I'm out of warranty, (which I must admit I am surprised that there is only a 12 month warranty here in Australia), I am bracing myself for the conversation with my dealer regarding cost of repair when I finally get to the point of fixing it.

As noted above, analogue products and components rarely goes wrong. Capacitors will degrade in time. Mechanical switches and volume controls can fail. And you can't blame Naim if a bought in chip or micro switch dies. So it's take the rough with the smooth.

Richard Dane posted:

Bobby, I've been doing some background research on your behalf to see what can be done.  

I think it's only fair to the Australian distributor to note on this thread that the unit in question was not an officially imported unit but one supplied in 2012 for sale in Saudi Arabia, from where I believe you have confirmed you purchased it.  

As such, any warranty is between you and the distributor, which is also effectively underwritten by the factory for the first year.  

I'm told that the required parts have been sent by the Austrailian distributor and the local dealer is standing by with their engineer to fit it for you.  What has happened is unfortunate but it does sound like you're getting good support from the local crew for a unit from which they haven't seen a single penny (and may even have potentially lost a few due to a lost sale?) so I think under the circumstances it's only fair that they charge their going rate for this service.

As I say, the distributor Chris Murphy is definitely one of the good guys and I really don't think he's out to gouge anyone.  If you're a Naim owner and you have issues then typically he wants to help as best he can.

Oh no, no hard feelings here at all! And I definitely do not think the local distributor is gouging me.  Both him and the dealer's engineer have been very nice and professional and I am glad they are available and ready to help.

I bought the unit in KSA when I lived there for a while so there was not any loss of business due to overseas cost arbitrage or such.

It is just that, from the consumer perspective here in Australia we are being charged an arm and a leg for pretty much everything, and especially for those nicer things in life deemed as the "luxury".  We pay double the cost of quality electronics, and also cars, compared to US or UK consumers.

I am thinking more of the very wisdom to own expensive items manufactured overseas?

And I do believe that Naim should make the critical spare parts available for their overseas official dealers available given that, as it appears, they do fail.

Bobby

Bobby,

I'm enjoying your thread. Forgive my off-topic query but I'm interested to hear from one down under; how is Plinius perceived by Aussies? Cost, reliability, servicing, etc. Would you make any comparisons to Naim in terms of the overall signature sound?

dzambolaja posted:

And I do believe that Naim should make the critical spare parts available for their overseas official dealers available given that, as it appears, they do fail.

Bobby, given that no electronic component is ever absolutely guaranteed to forever be totally failsafe, they do make spare parts available for their overseas distributors - that's how your unit is being repaired.  

Or have I misunderstood something in your post?

joerand posted:

Bobby,

I'm enjoying your thread. Forgive my off-topic query but I'm interested to hear from one down under; how is Plinius perceived by Aussies? Cost, reliability, servicing, etc. Would you make any comparisons to Naim in terms of the overall signature sound?

A colleague in Melbourne is very happy with a Plinius preamp into a Elektra power amp (recently recapped) driving Dynaudios. He attends a fair few audio events and it seems like the Aussies are as proud of their home grown hifi as we Brits are of ours. Perhaps because of the markup in AU but he seems to reckon you get a lot more for your money with locally made stuff.

steve95775 posted:

As noted above, analogue products and components rarely goes wrong. Capacitors will degrade in time. Mechanical switches and volume controls can fail. And you can't blame Naim if a bought in chip or micro switch dies. So it's take the rough with the smooth.

It is useful that you brought this up. I have forgotten to disclose an issue with my NAC 202. About 5 years ago there was static or crackling noises from the loudspeakers when the volume knob was turned up or down. Apparently the volume pot was found to be dirty. That was the only issue with the NAC 202 that I had encountered. No failure with volume controls though.

When I had purchased my amplifier (demo model) , was already broken when came out from the shop. Each time when I had pushed the mute button loudly popping noice was coming out from the left speaker- https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=eShWwvHCSB0  Reparation it took two months and I  was really frustrated during that period. Now I'm a very happy and proud owner of the Naim products  

feeling_zen posted:

...

Eventually recapping and service of 6 boxes will come up and I may or may not decide to just ditch the whole lot and start again. Cost-wise it may be cheaper. I love the Naim sound and nothing does it for me like Naim and possible a few other brands (which also do not exist here except Linn). It puts a big question mark on whether it is really worth, as you say, owning Naim outside of a country with an authorised service agent.

...

Why not fly in an engineer? It is likely to be cheaper, less risk. All what can happen is that the engineer sees something which needs fixing and he did not bring the spare part.

ryder. posted:

steve95775 posted:

As noted above, analogue products and components rarely goes wrong. Capacitors will degrade in time. Mechanical switches and volume controls can fail. And you can't blame Naim if a bought in chip or micro switch dies. So it's take the rough with the smooth.

It is useful that you brought this up. I have forgotten to disclose an issue with my NAC 202. About 5 years ago there was static or crackling noises from the loudspeakers when the volume knob was turned up or down. Apparently the volume pot was found to be dirty. That was the only issue with the NAC 202 that I had encountered. No failure with volume controls though.

Indeed, when I had a 202, I had bought it pre loved, and read about dirty pots.. so on the remote I swept the internal balance pot from left to right a few times using the remote.. there was initially quite a crackle then all goodness.. I felt the overall performance stepped forward after that.

Simon

Accidentally hit the back button and lost a whole message. Now I have to retype all over again.

Off-topic since someone asked about Plinius. I used to adore the glorious sound and stunning build quality of the Plinius SA-100 Mk3 until the Harbeth came into the picture.

Matched with the Audio Research LS16, the Plinius house sound is full, warm, liquid and punchy with good speed and dynamics. The Plinius sounded like tubes on steroids which was very nice. When used with the Harbeth SHL5, the sound became slow, thick, syrupy and muddy with indistinct bass definition. The Plinius-Harbeth combination was too much of a good thing, too much warmth which produced a thick and laidback sound akin to a dead sound without life. That kicked off a crazy amp swapping in an attempt to salvage things (tried not less than half a dozen amps). The LFD Zero LEIII integrated was a massive improvement over the much costlier separates as it injected speed, life and dynamics to the music. I had several friends over during the listening session and all were astounded when the amps were switched. The difference in sound quality was not subtle at all. Sometimes it's not the amplifier but the system matching that counts. More specifically the speaker-amp interface.

The NAC 202 and NAP 200 do not have the fullness, tube-like midrange and punch of the Plinius. However, in areas of pace, rhythm and timing, the Naim is better than the Plinius. The 202/200 matches the Harbeth better as they are leaner sounding amps with less full / ponderous bass (which the Plinius has in spades when matched with the Harbeth). In other words, the 202/200 are lighter on their feet, quicker and more agile. 

At one point of time I was contemplating whether to get rid of the ARC/Plinius or the Harbeth. In the end the Harbeth stayed and the Plinius made way for the Naim. I have read about Plinius combining well with other speakers such as Dynaudios, so it's horses for courses. My impressions on the Plinius are solely made in the context of my system, with the Harbeth loudspeakers.

"A colleague in Melbourne is very happy with a Plinius preamp into a Elektra power amp (recently recapped) driving Dynaudios. He attends a fair few audio events and it seems like the Aussies are as proud of their home grown hifi as we Brits are of ours. Perhaps because of the markup in AU but he seems to reckon you get a lot more for your money with locally made stuff."

ahem! Plinius is a Kiwi firm, not Australian.

Ardbeg10y posted:

feeling_zen posted:

...

Eventually recapping and service of 6 boxes will come up and I may or may not decide to just ditch the whole lot and start again. Cost-wise it may be cheaper. I love the Naim sound and nothing does it for me like Naim and possible a few other brands (which also do not exist here except Linn). It puts a big question mark on whether it is really worth, as you say, owning Naim outside of a country with an authorised service agent.

...

Why not fly in an engineer? It is likely to be cheaper, less risk. All what can happen is that the engineer sees something which needs fixing and he did not bring the spare part.

hahaha. I had thought about this but if only it was that simple. They won't have their test rig in their luggage. And I doubt, luggage asside you could persuade someone out for less than the best part of my annual salary. If it was merely replacement of caps then, for someone famialiar with replacement and discharge, recapping something many years outside of warranty myself would be an option. Only, I know there is a lot more to a service than that and recapping is the least complex bit.

Like many people on the forum with no authorised Naim service agent, it is a bridge we'll cross when we get to it. After all, who knows what the state of play will be in 5 or so years from now?

Richard Dane posted:

dzambolaja posted:

And I do believe that Naim should make the critical spare parts available for their overseas official dealers available given that, as it appears, they do fail.

Bobby, given that no electronic component is ever absolutely guaranteed to forever be totally failsafe, they do make spare parts available for their overseas distributors - that's how your unit is being repaired.  

Or have I misunderstood something in your post?

I find the spare part expensive at 1/3 of the new unit cost overseas.

joerand posted:

Bobby,

I'm enjoying your thread. Forgive my off-topic query but I'm interested to hear from one down under; how is Plinius perceived by Aussies? Cost, reliability, servicing, etc. Would you make any comparisons to Naim in terms of the overall signature sound?

I heard their amps twice in Melbourne, once in Carlton and once in neighbouring Collingwood but some 8 years ago so can only speak for amps of that age.  The first one in Carlton was hooked on to Dynaudio speakers and it sounded very similar to Musical Fidelity gear with continuously strong sound wave and very powerful.  The second one was hooked on to Focal Utopia's and I could not distinguish it from the Perreaux amp I also heard on the same day. I was not overly impressed by Plinius in either case but was so with both speaker sets.  Especially so with the Focals. Big time.  The Krell amps I heard afterwards sounded much better to my ears.  It was no contest.

 

But I am thinking from a consumer perspective, does owning a Naim really makes a (reliable) sense for someone who lives far from Salisbury ?

 

It's more a case of living near a good dealer. If I didn't I wouldn't have any Naim stuff, despite also living near Salisbury. Home auditions, the ability to pop into the dealer, fast after sales attention, a good relationship. None impossible but all more possible if you live near a good dealer. A good dealer will also know their business well enough to have an excellent relationship with importers and distributors.  If you see or strongly sense a disconnect at this lever, walk. No, run. It just ain't worth it. This applies to anything.

I had a similar issue with my ND5XS. It got repaired "under warranty" (I paid for labour only), but just shipping it to the UK and back to Brazil, where I was living at the time, made the whole exercise a bit excessive. My dealer in the UK sold it for me after the repair instead of having it sent back.

My situation was worse than yours in that there really wasn't someone that could have taken care of it there (the distributor on Naim's website has been out of business for a few years, AFAIK).

I think the digital stuff is kinda risky if you don't trust your local distributor, the analogue gear should be OK though you'll still have to deal with servicing at some point

What's the best way to get a unit needing repair back to uk1- to use a courier or fly it over in luggage any experiences..

I find a courier more convenient and there is proper insurance.

However, because of how complex customs can be, I often timed it with my relatively frequent visits to the UK as required and took it in the luggage. It's always a bit tense, though, so having done both, I much prefer the first route.