Labour ?

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Now if Labour had somebody like Burnham leading them I suspect things could be very very different... he has done at a regional level what May is doing at a national level - reaching out to people across classes and traditional view points.

The thing that f*cked the Labour (very amusingly in my Tory view) was the Milliband leadership election where the wrong one got in ... wish I could been at the dinner table afterwards lol

David O posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

The challenge for Labour is that Jeremy Corbyn is highly regarded in Camden but not Nuneaton.  

Out of interest what has driven the link between Camden and Nuneaton with Corbyn?

If Labour are to be elected Nuneaton is one of the key marginals. 

The Strat (Fender) posted:

The challenge for Labour is that Jeremy Corbyn is highly regarded in Camden but not Nuneaton.  

A highly satisfactory state of affairs, imho ...

ynwa250505 posted:

The thing that f*cked the Labour (very amusingly in my Tory view) was the Milliband leadership election where the wrong one got in ... wish I could been at the dinner table afterwards lol

I had let that one slip from my mind,  thanks for re-reminding me.  I thought at the time it was a bit odd the union vote could outgun the PLP & we they ended up then with a leader they didn't really want.    

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Eloise posted:

All the negative comments about Labour and their current leadership ... does anyone have any suggestions how they can improve it in the next month?  To anyone who thinks they can't improve it, but who's usual instinct would be to vote Labour, do they really feel that Tory under TM is going to bring something closer to their political ideal than Labour under JC?

Well it's a phoney election simply because of the Brexit.  As someone who would never vote Labour - I just don't have socialist principles - I also have misgivings with TM because I'm an ardent remainer.   The Lib-Dems should be making hay.........

 ..... but we're not remaining - it really is time to accept that reality ... if only because reality has a nasty habit of intruding ...

As for the Lib Dems - I am reliably informed that the last 4 Apollo missions have laid landing strips on the moon for the flying pigs to land safely - I've set up my telescope lol

Come to think of it, the moon would be a good place for Minor Fart to open up an office - they'll get a bigger percentage of the vote there - and they can have PR too ...

Mike-B posted:

ynwa250505 posted:

The thing that f*cked the Labour (very amusingly in my Tory view) was the Milliband leadership election where the wrong one got in ... wish I could been at the dinner table afterwards lol

I had let that one slip from my mind,  thanks for re-reminding me.  I thought at the time it was a bit odd the union vote could outgun the PLP & we they ended up then with a leader they didn't really want.    

Well it certainly remained in my mind - I paid £3 to vote for Ed - best donation to the Tories I've ever made ... lol ... 

sorry - it was Jezza I voted for ... but I would have voted for Ed ... best man for the job at that time (imho) LOL LOL LOL ...

Labour's problem in a nutshell?

For me it is twofold.

One; the electorally successful period of recent times was with New Labour which was not really Labour at all. The electorate have not returned a socialist govt for a long, long time. I'm not sure that the UK has a real sense of what a modern labour administration would mean.

Two; the proximity of Unions to Labour leadership, policy and organisation. I think that a lot of people view that with suspicion at best. Can they be divorced?

Whatever I think about Corbyn it seems to me the Party needs a great deal more than a new leader.

I have voted Labour in the past (for Blair first time around). Not that I've ever lived anywhere this might make any difference.

Bruce

I agree Bruce, and indeed I have voted Labour in the past when Blair led the party which I later regretted.. What I find interesting if you take radio phone ins and TV vox pops into account, is that many people are far less tribal in the UK than some political parties seem to want to believe.. I guess it's in their interests for people to be tribal.. To be fair Blair got that and  I think May gets it... I think Farron is now discovering a fair proportion of his traditional core base voted to leave and its now hard for him to reconcile that with his current platform, and Labour are seemingly only now trying to reach out from their traditional base as some of their traditional base is turning against them and being replaced by sections of the youth vote and some relatively wealthy middle class conscience  socialists.

I guess my view is that May will be successful initially appealing to a broad church, but I think such appeals are relatively short lived... so I predict a strongish Tory win this election with a marked adjustment back and weakened Tory party in the subsequent election .. and I suspect that will have coincided with a more balanced and inclusive  lib dem, a new labour leader and direction and a slightly weakened SNP. I think the SNP is now starting to feel the effects of a post broad church appeal.

I think that when the next election comes around we will (presumably) be post-Brexit and hopefully the Parties can move on from whether they identify with Leave/Remain etc and can engage with a far broader narrative. I think the electorate will have the same shift of emphasis. The problem may be that the electoral shift required to bring back a big Tory majority then may be very large indeed.

As predicted this election just feels like Brexit pt 2. I have never seriously thought about abstaining before-despite living in a constituency where my vote is basically irrelevant I've always voted but this time I really may not bother. For someone fairly engaged politically that seems pretty sad.

Bruce

Maybe Labour will benefit in the long term from what seems to be shaping up to be a thrashing on 9th June.  First, it should cause the party to look fundamentally at how it is run and what it stands for. A new leader is desperately needed as the current one, while principled, appeals only to the left-wing of the party and not to the electorate in general. Second, with TM seemingly hell bent on pushing for a hard Brexit, by the time of the next election, 2022, the economic consequences may well have become very apparent.  The electorate will not blame themselves for voting for Brexit, it will blame the government of the day for the way it was implemented. And there will be plenty on the Opposition benches who will delight in pointing this out.  The electorate could well punish the government of the day, regardless of the policies and quality of the Opposition which, by then won't have been in power for more than a decade.

Eloise posted:

All the negative comments about Labour and their current leadership ... does anyone have any suggestions how they can improve it in the next month?  To anyone who thinks they can't improve it, but who's usual instinct would be to vote Labour, do they really feel that Tory under TM is going to bring something closer to their political ideal than Labour under JC?

As someone who has always voted Labour, I can't see any way of turning things around in the next month. More depressing than that, I can't honestly find it in myself to believe Corbyn and his close associates are fit to run the country. It seems to me that the only way forward is for the Labour party (and the Lib-Dems) to be so comprehensively routed that a new centre left party emerges. Hopefully this would take a fresh look at what makes for a decent society and shed the baggage of trade union domination (whilst defending workers' rights in a 21st century context).

Many might say that the SDP debacle makes this a non starter but there is compelling very recent evidence that this could work. Macron's stunning victory in France as head of a party that didn't exist a year ago and Andy Burnham's  big win in the Manchester mayoral election show that many people will vote centre/left given someone worth voting for. 

You think this bunch are "fit to run the country" then? Certainly Corbyn is a vote loser but why are we in this US style presidential type race, it's about policies not party leaders. It amazes me that logical and seemingly sensible people are voting for the death of the NHS, Education and themselves.

Check out Jonathon Pie's Videos. "Strong and Stable" is good.

https://www.youtube.com/user/tomwalker78     Some rude words.

Pev posted:

Eloise posted:

All the negative comments about Labour and their current leadership ... does anyone have any suggestions how they can improve it in the next month?  To anyone who thinks they can't improve it, but who's usual instinct would be to vote Labour, do they really feel that Tory under TM is going to bring something closer to their political ideal than Labour under JC?

As someone who has always voted Labour, I can't see any way of turning things around in the next month. More depressing than that, I can't honestly find it in myself to believe Corbyn and his close associates are fit to run the country. It seems to me that the only way forward is for the Labour party (and the Lib-Dems) to be so comprehensively routed that a new centre left party emerges. Hopefully this would take a fresh look at what makes for a decent society and shed the baggage of trade union domination (whilst defending workers' rights in a 21st century context).

Many might say that the SDP debacle makes this a non starter but there is compelling very recent evidence that this could work. Macron's stunning victory in France as head of a party that didn't exist a year ago and Andy Burnham's  big win in the Manchester mayoral election show that many people will vote centre/left given someone worth voting for. 

Pev,

I sincerely hope that you are right.

However, I too am old enough to remember the disappointments of the SDP 'debacle', which was led by 3 of the most adept and respected politicians of their era, in Shirley Williams, Roy Jenkins and David Owen. I was desperately disappointed that their attempt to unite the country with a centre/left of centre manifesto ended up in abject failure.

I guess that Simon's view of political tribalism is pretty accurate. Political tribalism was extremely strong in that era and prevented support coming on board from the moderate wings of both the Labour and Conservative parties. As Simon has suggested, political tribalism of this sort appears to have waned over recent years, and that should mean that the political landscape should be amenable to a centre/left of centre movement as we have seen in France.

Unfortunately, although there are a few people in the labour party whom I admire, such as Andy Burnham, we don't have anyone of the calibre of the above 3 (or apparently of Macron, whom I admit I know little about) to lead such a movement in the UK today.  

Still, it is good news for everyone, including those who would like to see the further break-up of the EU that the racist Marine Le Pen has been soundly beaten in yesterday's French Presidential election. A victory by Le Pen, who incidentally had the support of Nigel Farage, would have resulted in the further spread of her poisonous rhetoric and policies.     

One of the mistakes Labour made under Miliband was to allow people to pay a few quid in order to get a vote in the leadership election. To be able to vote you really should have to be a member for say six months. In my view anyway. It will be interesting to see if those normally Labour supporters who voted ukip last time revert to Labour or switch to the Tories, or stay with ukip of course. 

In our constituency, if the Tories put up a newt for their candidate it would still get elected. Come to think of it, a newt might be brighter than our MP, from what I've seen. 

There are some very good MPs in the Labour Party. Whether Corbyn does the sensible thing and stands down after 6 June remains to be seen. If not, I reckon we will have the Tories for 20 years, and our public services will be even more diminished than they are already. 

Pev posted:

As someone who has always voted Labour, I can't see any way of turning things around in the next month. More depressing than that, I can't honestly find it in myself to believe Corbyn and his close associates are fit to run the country. It seems to me that the only way forward is for the Labour party (and the Lib-Dems) to be so comprehensively routed that a new centre left party emerges. Hopefully this would take a fresh look at what makes for a decent society and shed the baggage of trade union domination (whilst defending workers' rights in a 21st century context).

I'm also not sure if Corbyn is fit to run the country (though many in the PLP abdicated their responsibilities when they stabbed him in the back last June) ... but I think Corbyn and the current policies would run the country far better for the majority than May and her co-horts will do.

Many might say that the SDP debacle makes this a non starter but there is compelling very recent evidence that this could work. Macron's stunning victory in France as head of a party that didn't exist a year ago and Andy Burnham's  big win in the Manchester mayoral election show that many people will vote centre/left given someone worth voting for. 

The problem is that UK General Elections are generally run in a presidential "who would be the best leader" way; but someone new can't come in because of the weighted first past the post method of electing the UK parliament.  Look at UKIP ... they have had massive support yet in terms of parliamentary seats have barely made a dent.  To have a Macron kind of revolution would require someone able to fund a national party, 650-odd representatives across the country.

Hungryhalibut posted:

One of the mistakes Labour made under Miliband....

And the mistake before that was to elect the wrong Miliband.

C.

Christopher_M posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

One of the mistakes Labour made under Miliband....

And the mistake before that was to elect the wrong Miliband.

C.

Agree with that,  it's been downhill ever since 

 "but I think Corbyn and the current policies would run the country far better for the majority than May and her co-horts will do."  I've been a labour supporter and one time activist all my life but I can't agree with that.  I think a Corbyn government, with his proposed key ministers, would be an absolute disaster for the country and I suspect we would be bankrupt or desperately begging to be allowed back into the EU to rescue us in short order.  No amount of good intentions can make up for politics from the 70s and financial incompetence.  We would have the bad old days of the unions running the country and wide scale strikes as Momentuum took over the government just as they have the Labour Party.  His proposals so far would cost billions and he has no way of paying for them beyond the old socialist tax the rich mantra.  And as for the NHS being safe, how safe would it be in a bankrupt Britain?

Q. If Labour get trounced will the they have a new system for electing a leader? If not can they be sure of a more electable choice? The last 3 leadership elections have given the 'wrong' Milliband then Corbyn and Corbyn again. Not exactly a great track record.

Bruce

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

Q. If Labour get trounced will the they have a new system for electing a leader? If not can they be sure of a more electable choice? The last 3 leadership elections have given the 'wrong' Milliband then Corbyn and Corbyn again. Not exactly a great track record.

The alternative to Corbyn again was hardly any more electable though!

The British people ought to vote with their consciouses rather like the French have just done to defeat the rise of Fascism.  Good on them i say, even i'd rather vote in a banker, than a fascist, if push came to shove...

The May party with it's totally undemocratic and diabolical secret Brexit plans, and it would seem now a secret electoral manifesto too with the exception we know it's more or less in line with Le Pen style of beliefs, and especially now  with it's gained UKIP support.

A vote for the Tories is a vote for the Hard as Nails Brexit Con-Kipper Populist Party!

The best use of ones vote in this election is to tactfully vote for any 'moral' standing candidate; Labour, Lib Dem, Green, SNP, or Independent, who has the best chance of winning other than this new and particularly nasty Tory fascist Party. 

Debs

Eloise posted:

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

Q. If Labour get trounced will the they have a new system for electing a leader? If not can they be sure of a more electable choice? The last 3 leadership elections have given the 'wrong' Milliband then Corbyn and Corbyn again. Not exactly a great track record.

The alternative to Corbyn again was hardly any more electable though!

Exactly. Yet I suspect you and I can suggest 3-4 electable alternatives but I'd have no confidence the current selection system would get them appointed. Some don't want to stand or have ducked out anyway (Burnham, Benn).

How about Sadiq Khan for the future as a real alternative?

Bruce

naim_nymph posted:

The British people ought to vote with their consciouses rather like the French have just done to defeat the rise of Fascism.  Good on them i say, even i'd rather vote in a banker, than a fascist, if push came to shove...

The May party with it's totally undemocratic and diabolical secret Brexit plans, and it would seem now a secret electoral manifesto too with the exception we know it's more or less in line with Le Pen style of beliefs, and especially now  with it's gained UKIP support.

A vote for the Tories is a vote for the Hard as Nails Brexit Con-Kipper Populist Party!

The best use of ones vote in this election is to tactfully vote for any 'moral' standing candidate; Labour, Lib Dem, Green, SNP, or Independent, who has the best chance of winning other than this new and particularly nasty Tory fascist Party. 

Debs

 

 

I see no logical unbiased reason to describe the Tory party as fascist?? Please explain.... 

wenger2015 posted:

I see no logical unbiased reason to describe the Tory party as fascist?? Please explain.... 

To call them fascists is perhaps going too far (and admittedly not unbiased) ... but they are facist leaning ...

From Wikipedia...

Fascism is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism, characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and control of industry and commerce, [...].  Opposed to liberalism, Marxism, and anarchism, fascism is usually placed on the far-right within the traditional left–right spectrum.

Fascists believe that liberal democracy is obsolete, and they regard the complete mobilization of society under a totalitarian one-party state as necessary to prepare a nation for armed conflict and to respond effectively to economic difficulties. Such a state is led by a strong leader—such as a dictator and a martial government composed of the members of the governing fascist party—to forge national unity and maintain a stable and orderly society. Fascism rejects assertions that violence is automatically negative in nature and views political violence, war, and imperialism as means that can achieve national rejuvenation. Fascists advocate a mixed economy, with the principal goal of achieving autarky through protectionist and interventionist economic policies.

Given May's stated aim in calling this GE was to strengthen the UK's resolve in the Brexit negotiations, that is the suppression of opposition.  Its also trying to increase dictatorial powers especially as she is now talking about "May's Team" as opposed to the Conservative party.

Their policies are very much aimed at building The United Kingdom for the British and (Northern) Irish regardless of the damage that may do to the United Kingdom, and anyone who stands in their way is portrayed (either directly or by allowing the Right Wing media to do it for them) as an enemy.