Labour ?

An interesting point of I was reading regarding May's "No deal is better than a bad deal" mantra...

[What does the mantra, “no deal for Britain is better than a bad deal” actually mean]. [It] could have one of two meanings.

One is that if, at some point in the negotiations, it becomes clear that the promised benefits of Brexit are not there, then “no deal” means we retain the status quo, rescind our article 50 notice and, if necessary, fight our corner in the courts to establish that we can do so and remain members of the EU. Given the closeness of the 48-52 vote this could make sense. It would require parliamentary approval, would provoke arguments for another referendum, but above all would demand boldness from the prime minister, a quality she evidently values.

The other meaning is that, having failed in one set of negotiations and walked away, we start again on another set to resolve all the untidy issues that are left: a border in Ireland? Jurisdiction over continuing relationships with Europe (Helena Kennedy, 3 May)? Status of EU citizens in this country and vice versa? Existing financial commitment including access to European research funds with an agreed timetable stretching beyond 2019? Agreed European structures for air traffic control and much more?

All these and more would still need to be resolved and it is difficult to see how a second set of negotiations would produce a better result than the first. Nor could they be brushed away with a repeal bill, even if it were, like colonial independence legislation, more properly renamed a continuation bill.

The second point is the important one.  Even if the UK just "walks away" from Europe, an outcome many feel is desirable as it could avoid a €100 billion bill, there are still issues which have to be dealt with.  

naim_nymph posted:

The British people ought to vote with their consciouses rather like the French have just done to defeat the rise of Fascism.  Good on them i say, even i'd rather vote in a banker, than a fascist, if push came to shove...

The May party with it's totally undemocratic and diabolical secret Brexit plans, and it would seem now a secret electoral manifesto too with the exception we know it's more or less in line with Le Pen style of beliefs, and especially now  with it's gained UKIP support.

A vote for the Tories is a vote for the Hard as Nails Brexit Con-Kipper Populist Party!

The best use of ones vote in this election is to tactfully vote for any 'moral' standing candidate; Labour, Lib Dem, Green, SNP, or Independent, who has the best chance of winning other than this new and particularly nasty Tory fascist Party. 

Debs

 

 

Nothing jaundiced in your view then DebS!!  You seem oblivious to the fact that the hardest and most nationalistic  Brexit views are in the Labour heartlands.

Ans whilst I am more Liberal leaning as opposed to neo Tory what is there that is fascist about this government?

Regards,'

BigH47 posted:

You think this bunch are "fit to run the country" then? Certainly Corbyn is a vote loser but why are we in this US style presidential type race, it's about policies not party leaders. It amazes me that logical and seemingly sensible people are voting for the death of the NHS, Education and themselves.

Check out Jonathon Pie's Videos. "Strong and Stable" is good.

https://www.youtube.com/user/tomwalker78     Some rude words.

A lot of truth spoken in all that humour.

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Ans whilst I am more Liberal leaning as opposed to neo Tory what is there that is fascist about this government?

Regards,'

Going to the supreme court to try to deny parliament a vote. Going to court to try to prevent publication of legally required information. Arguing for a GE on the basis that opposition in parliament is bad for the country. Failing to condemn the Mail's vilification of the judicial system and its political independence.

On the frankly terrifying 'Crush the saboteurs' headline, the fact that her disavowal was disingenuous - from the New Statesman (ie hardly the Guardian) analysis:

"It makes political sense to claim that there are enemies abroad who have to be defeated at the polls. But if we're going to talk about rhetoric that corrodes democracy, we should start at the steps of Downing Street, and not at the offices of the Mail."

Dave***t posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Ans whilst I am more Liberal leaning as opposed to neo Tory what is there that is fascist about this government?

Regards,'

Going to the supreme court to try to deny parliament a vote. Going to court to try to prevent publication of legally required information. Arguing for a GE on the basis that opposition in parliament is bad for the country. Failing to condemn the Mail's vilification of the judicial system and its political independence.

On the frankly terrifying 'Crush the saboteurs' headline, the fact that her disavowal was disingenuous - from the New Statesman (ie hardly the Guardian) analysis:

"It makes political sense to claim that there are enemies abroad who have to be defeated at the polls. But if we're going to talk about rhetoric that corrodes democracy, we should start at the steps of Downing Street, and not at the offices of the Mail."

None of that tantamounts to fascism.   Somewhat autocratic maybe.  The Left do make me smile anyone that disagrees with their mantra is a fascist.  

The Strat (Fender) posted:

None of that tantamounts to fascism.   Somewhat autocratic maybe.  The Left do make me smile anyone that disagrees with their mantra is a fascist.  

No, anyone who tries to shut down debate and opposition while subverting constitutional conventions using dictatorial language and who promotes a right wing populist agenda is facist (or specifically has facist leaning). 

So all those in the Labour heartlands who think the so called remainers (like myself) should just accept the result and not challenge it anymore are fascists?

The Strat (Fender) posted:

So all those in the Labour heartlands who think the so called remainers (like myself) should just accept the result and not challenge it anymore are fascists?

No, because they are not people in authority who have the ability to shut down debate.  And I didn't say TM is a facist (I know others did) but do you really not see facist tendencies in her rhetoric and behaviour?  

She is certainly not acting in a way which promotes democracy, quite the opposite.  Even her stated aim in calling this election is to shut down debate and dissent and to keep the opposition quiet!

I wouldn't say the things I mentioned were fascist per se either, they were just things which people who do describe the govt as fascist could use as examples.

I'd go more for worryingly authoritarian.

Eloise posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

So all those in the Labour heartlands who think the so called remainers (like myself) should just accept the result and not challenge it anymore are fascists?

 

She is certainly not acting in a way which promotes democracy, quite the opposite.  Even her stated aim in calling this election is to shut down debate and dissent and to keep the opposition quiet!

The aim of calling a GE, is twofold,

1) it's best when ones opponent is lame,  to go in for the kill.

2) in order to achieve a reasonable Brexit outcome,  you have to be in a position of strength, not held up constantly by those who want to interfere with the whole process 

I'm not going to be voting Conservative but I see her reason for going back to the country as simply renewing for 2 reasons.  First if the negotiations get prolonged as they well might she would not want the uncertainty of an election hindering or undermining her position particularly if the EU seek to hit us with a hard BREXIT. Secondly if she doesn't achieve what she's after in terms of immigration numbers then she may well face challenge from the right of her own party.   We are in truly un precedented times. 

The Strat (Fender) posted:

So all those in the Labour heartlands who think the so called remainers (like myself) should just accept the result and not challenge it anymore are fascists?

majority won, get over it.

audio1946 posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

So all those in the Labour heartlands who think the so called remainers (like myself) should just accept the result and not challenge it anymore are fascists?

majority won, get over it.

What?   In a democracy I'm not allowed a point of view?

The Strat (Fender) posted:

audio1946 posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

So all those in the Labour heartlands who think the so called remainers (like myself) should just accept the result and not challenge it anymore are fascists?

majority won, get over it.

What?   In a democracy I'm not allowed a point of view?

The far left and far right both believe in shutting down dissenting opinion... 

As a thought ... are many Labour voters socialist, or is it just that socialist ideals in many cases parallel the desires of many Labour voters?  

The Strat (Fender) posted:

audio1946 posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

So all those in the Labour heartlands who think the so called remainers (like myself) should just accept the result and not challenge it anymore are fascists?

majority won, get over it.

What?   In a democracy I'm not allowed a point of view?

This forum is a hotbed of fascism ...

naim_nymph posted:

The British people ought to vote with their consciouses rather like the French have just done to defeat the rise of Fascism.  Good on them i say, even i'd rather vote in a banker, than a fascist, if push came to shove...

The May party with it's totally undemocratic and diabolical secret Brexit plans, and it would seem now a secret electoral manifesto too with the exception we know it's more or less in line with Le Pen style of beliefs, and especially now  with it's gained UKIP support.

A vote for the Tories is a vote for the Hard as Nails Brexit Con-Kipper Populist Party!

The best use of ones vote in this election is to tactfully vote for any 'moral' standing candidate; Labour, Lib Dem, Green, SNP, or Independent, who has the best chance of winning other than this new and particularly nasty Tory fascist Party. 

Debs

 

 

Where do you get this rubbish from?

Hmm Tory fascist party - I find that rather offensive or at best complete utter tosh - and I have voted for most parties in my time - apart from the  fascist and communist parties.. Thank God most in this country have never had to live under a facist government

Reading the Daily Mail in a mirror?

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Hmm Tory fascist party - I find that rather offensive or at best complete utter tosh - and I have voted for most parties in my time - apart from the  fascist and communist parties.. Thank God most in this country have never had to live under a facist government

Correct Simon.  

audio1946 posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

So all those in the Labour heartlands who think the so called remainers (like myself) should just accept the result and not challenge it anymore are fascists?

majority won, get over it.

In many people's opinion, including mine, the majority were wrong. That makes it hard to get over. And triumphalism from the 'winners' doesn't make it any easier. But we are where we are and we need to pull together to get the best possible outcome, rather than bicker like six year olds. 

I think May is behaving rather despotically, and I'd never in a million years vote Tory, but even I agree that the use of fascist to describe the Tories is going a bit far. But..... I'd apply the term to the racists of UKIP, and as the Tories are trying to appeal to the UKIP supporters, they are sailing rather close to the wind on this one. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

I think May is behaving rather despotically, and I'd never in a million years vote Tory, but even I agree that the use of fascist to describe the Tories is going a bit far. But..... I'd apply the term to the racists of UKIP, and as the Tories are trying to appeal to the UKIP supporters, they are sailing rather close to the wind on this one. 

What sort of brainwashing have you been through that justifies you saying that people who do not agree with your failed Socialist 'principles' are any more racist or Fascist than the likes of Stalin, PolPot, Mao Tse Tung or Kim Jong Un? Don't you get it that the people who were historically Fascists were exponents of the word 'Socialism'.

And what makes anyone who voted UKIP any worse than the truly awful racist John McDonnell, a man who praised IRA murderers, and is happy to be associated with Middle East terrorists, or the hideous Nugee who hates white man van and anyone who displays the flag of her own country, England. Then there is Livingstone the anti-Semite and Corbyn has been very shy of disagreeing with him. 

These apparently are your very acceptable faces of Socialism, but hey, they never voted UKIP so they must be good guys. 

I think UKIP originally gathered much of its support from disenfranchised tory and labour voters.. now UKIP appears without a mission I suspect its voters are aligning themselves with new parties rather than parties actively hunting for them - and right now there appears a migration to Tory from both UKIP and Labour... but as I say i think that will only be short lived.

But having said even UKIP are not racists, just like I would not brand Labour racist (because there is a slight whiff of anti-Semitism in places)  - racists are the preserve of the EDL and other such extreme minority parties in my opinion - and there is world of difference between UKIP and the EDL. 

andarkian posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

I think May is behaving rather despotically, and I'd never in a million years vote Tory, but even I agree that the use of fascist to describe the Tories is going a bit far. But..... I'd apply the term to the racists of UKIP, and as the Tories are trying to appeal to the UKIP supporters, they are sailing rather close to the wind on this one. 

What sort of brainwashing have you been through that justifies you saying that people who do not agree with your failed Socialist 'principles' are any more racist or Fascist than the likes of Stalin, PolPot, Mao Tse Tung or Kim Jong Un? Don't you get it that the people who were historically Fascists were exponents of the word 'Socialism'.

And what makes anyone who voted UKIP any worse than the truly awful racist John McDonnell, a man who praised IRA murderers, and is happy to be associated with Middle East terrorists, or the hideous Nugee who hates white man van and anyone who displays the flag of her own country, England. Then there is Livingstone the anti-Semite and Corbyn has been very shy of disagreeing with him. 

These apparently are your very acceptable faces of Socialism, but hey, they never voted UKIP so they must be good guys. 

You don't need to patronise me. I may have an acquired brain injury but I'm not entirely stupid. As has been said, there is a lot in common between the extreme left and the extreme right and I'd never defend Pol Pot. I also have no time for Corbyn, McDonnell or Livingstone. 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I think UKIP originally gathered much of its support from disenfranchised tory and labour voters.. now UKIP appears without a mission I suspect its voters are aligning themselves with new parties rather than parties actively hunting for them - and right now there appears a migration to Tory from both UKIP and Labour... but as I say i think that will only be short lived.

But having said even UKIP are not racists, just like I would not brand Labour racist (because there is a slight whiff of anti-Semitism in places)  - racists arer the preserve of the EDL and other such extreme minority parties in my opinion - and there is world of difference between UKIP and the EDL. 

But never admit that you might even have considered voting UKIP Simon as that is beyond the pale for the Guardianista, Socialist, moral high ground owning, anti-Fascist Fascists, which is what they are, who feel totally empowered in dictating what is right and wrong to the rest of us. Hypocrites the lot of em!