Labour ?

Don Atkinson posted:

Don't forget.

THIS election is purely about BREXIT.

The rest is piffle.

Don, I'm worried you've fallen for the Tory media line.

C.

Christopher_M posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Don't forget.

THIS election is purely about BREXIT.

The rest is piffle.

Don, I'm worried you've fallen for the Tory media line.

C.

No the Tory line is "strong and thoroughly absorbent"

dayjay posted:

At the moment JC would appear to support anything that will get him votes, apart from all those controversial causes he supported before he became labour leader.  Too brave to denounce them but to weak to say he still supports them.   He is a perfect example of the Peter principle 

I think you have JC confused with TM there!

Eloise posted:

dayjay posted:

At the moment JC would appear to support anything that will get him votes, apart from all those controversial causes he supported before he became labour leader.  Too brave to denounce them but to weak to say he still supports them.   He is a perfect example of the Peter principle 

I think you have JC confused with TM there!

I think they are both scrabbling for votes by offering anything that comes to mind. It's pathetic !

IMHO, the past 15 months has seen UK politics descend into a shambles. It's been reduced to little more than a playground squabble, full of lies, deceate  and name-calling.

I certainly think it's a phoney election.   Nothing coherent.    I will vote but not with any conviction.  

The Strat (Fender) posted:

I certainly think it's a phoney election.   Nothing coherent.    I will vote but not with any conviction.  

If you feel that way about the election (and I am inclined to agree that it is a "phony election"), there is of course the option to vote against the person who decided to call the election so opportunistically under the pretence that it is necessary in order for her to be able to negotiate a Brexit deal.   

Hmack posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

I certainly think it's a phoney election.   Nothing coherent.    I will vote but not with any conviction.  

If you feel that way about the election (and I am inclined to agree that it is a "phony election"), there is of course the option to vote against the person who decided to call the election so opportunistically under the pretence that it is necessary in order for her to be able to negotiate a Brexit deal.   

Ah! You mean Theresa U-turn May? Witness:

- I'm supporting Cameron in campaigning to stay in the EU; but now leaving the EU is a good thing and moreover I'll work for a hard Brexit;

- I'll support what the Chancellor announces in the Budget, as cleared with the Cabinet in the run-up to the Budget; but will now make him reverse his plan to increase NICs for the self-employed;

- I'll announce a floor beneath which nobody will have to pay for their care costs; oh no, we always intended that a cap would apply! And of course:

- there is no need for a General Election; and now there is!  

May clearly doesn't know her arse from her elbow, and has been exposed as being pretty inept. Though I'd dearly love Corbyn to win, it's very unlikely to happen, and assuming the Tories are elected, we'll have May leading the Brexit negotiations; the most critical negotiations the UK has undertaken for many years. It's not something that fills me with confidence. At least if there isn't a landslide, which there may be of course, hopefully we would have an effective opposition, which we desperately need. 

Well I can't vote Conservative, Labour or Lib-Dem.   I'm in Buckingham where we are in effect invited to re-elect Mr Speaker.    But I'd never vote Labour because I just don't  hold with the re-distribution of wealth nor the general socialist dogma or hypocrisy.   But as I've said previously none of the options persuade me as there is not a hint of fiscal responsibility amongst any of them.  

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Well I can't vote Conservative, Labour or Lib-Dem.   I'm in Buckingham where we are in effect invited to re-elect Mr Speaker.    But I'd never vote Labour because I just don't  hold with the re-distribution of wealth nor the general socialist dogma or hypocrisy.   But as I've said previously none of the options persuade me as there is not a hint of fiscal responsibility amongst any of them.  

I thought you meant you couldn't  vote for them in good conscience or something like that, but thought I'd check the candidates, and was surprised to find out that you literally can't vote for them!

What a daft system in what's supposed to be a representative democracy. I think I'd vote for Scott Raven as a matter of democratic principle, regardless of whether there was a hope of anyone bar Bercow winning.

Dave***t posted:

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Well I can't vote Conservative, Labour or Lib-Dem.   I'm in Buckingham where we are in effect invited to re-elect Mr Speaker.    But I'd never vote Labour because I just don't  hold with the re-distribution of wealth nor the general socialist dogma or hypocrisy.   But as I've said previously none of the options persuade me as there is not a hint of fiscal responsibility amongst any of them.  

I thought you meant you couldn't  vote for them in good conscience or something like that, but thought I'd check the candidates, and was surprised to find out that you literally can't vote for them!

So why didn't you say that, Strat, when I suggested a few pages ago that spoiling your paper looked like an ethical position for you?

C.

Much like you Strat, my vote will not do much as I live in a constituency that is about the safest Conservative seat in the land (maj. 25,000).   However after the 2018 boundary changes my village will have the new boundary running through the middle (now thats really sensible eh ) then I get moved to one of the marginals with a strong LimpDem following.  

 I'd never vote Labour because I remember last time,  jeez some people have short memories,  then further back to being newly married in 1970's & the winters of discontent, those scars run deep I can tell you & never ever & over my dead body etc.,   And like you I don't  hold with any labour socialist dogma & hypocrisy.  The warning is writ large in their manifesto,  nothing adds up,  it will be tax & more tax & deeper & deeper in debt,  McDonnell must be using Diane Abbot's calculator.  And are we really gonna let Corbyn loose to negotiate brexit,  lord help us    

That said I'm seriously disappointed with the apparent lack of response from the Conservatives,  they had a massive lead in the polls,  but its been seriously eroded away in the last 2 weeks & I don't see/hear any fightback.

That second paragraph sounds like something from the Mail. All scary words and no substance, just like May trots out every day. Why is she not responding - because she's useless, and the more she says, the more people are realising it. No policies, no vision, just more of the same. I don't se how the woman who constantly changes her mind can be more relied on to negotiate Brexit than Corbyn. Supports Remain, then a hard Brexit. No election then an election. No cap then a cap. Lacks a decent political brain - at least that's unchanged. Strong and Stable, Weak and Wobbly. 

So. To sum up Mike and HH above, we're f**cked !

Who said Brexit was a good idea ?

Gawd help us !!

No HH, its the way I feel after living through the 1970's & that labour fiasco,  its not daily mail rhetoric or my politics or me being anti labour,  its just the way I feel after my previous experience with the left wing politics that is now reincarnated as Corbyn & Co.     I like some (some) of the manifesto proposals & I was OK with Blair when he first arrived, in fact I felt quite invigorated,  so I'm not anti labour.  I am simply very anti Corbyn & his ideologists from the small percent of the PLP that support him.  

As for hard brexit,  now that makes you sound like a limpdem sound bite,  what is hard brexit ???  we are leaving the EU,  we can't cherry pick the bits we want to keep.   As for May changing her mind,  & as for 'constantly changing her mind' that is unworthy of you & is is not much more than a left wing sound bite.  I don't agree & cannot see how someone supporting Remain & then moving on to negotiating Brexit as electected party leader is changing her mind,  thank goodness our negotiating team has someone who was a Remainer.

I was at school in the early 70s and remember doing my homework by candlelight when there were daily power cuts, I remember the winter of discontent, and in the early 80s I remember Thatcher destroying the mining industry. But times move on and the current parties are not those of the 70s or 80s. Yes I'm biased as a Labour Party member, but at least their manifesto offers hope, whereas the Conservative manifesto offers almost nothing, just more austerity and shrinking services.

It's not fair to say that my comments on May's U turns are left wing sound bites - they are simply statements of fact. How can we rely on someone who is so inconsistent, and doesn't seem to think things through properly? 

Thanks, Mike-B. "LimpDem". I'm going to steal that.   

I've found the Osborne-edited Evening Standard's comments on the Tories interesting. Ok, there may be a whiff of sour grapes after his sacking by TM, but his assertion that the manifesto needs to be based on more than sound-bites like 'strong & stable', and that the policies like those on care costs haven't been thought through have a ring of truth for me.  I suspect he also reflects worries shared by some Conservative candidates.  Given that TM decided when to fire the starting gun I would have expected the Conservative Party to have been the most prepared and professional but it hasn't looked like that in the past couple of weeks.   I also expected Labour's manifesto and campaign to be a shambles but I've actually been surprised at how well they done (with the exception of the hapless Diane A, of course).   

Mike-B posted:

As for hard brexit,  now that makes you sound like a limpdem sound bite,  what is hard brexit ???  we are leaving the EU,  we can't cherry pick the bits we want to keep.  

Hard Brexit - that is when you have someone in charge who is determined to do not what is best for the country in negotiating strong, stable, close ties with the EU after we leave: offering and assuring that we will cooperate closely on things like tax evasion and security matter in the best interests of everyone; but instead is determined to "stand up" for the UKIP supporters, and quite literally threaten to tear up agreements on cooperation so that she can say the EU and ECJ no longer have any hold over the UK.

As for May changing her mind,  & as for 'constantly changing her mind' that is unworthy of you & is is not much more than a left wing sound bite.  I don't agree & cannot see how someone supporting Remain & then moving on to negotiating Brexit as electected party leader is changing her mind,  thank goodness our negotiating team has someone who was a Remainer.

That pre-supposes she was a remainer in the first place and not just taking a side for the sake of gaining power.  As for U-turns: what do you call promising not to hold a GE, then doing completely the opposite; what do you call her stance on social care?

Don Atkinson posted:

So. To sum up Mike and HH above, we're f**cked !

 

Unfortunately, Don, your wrong.

Those of us, lucky enough to have the disposable income to afford a Naim based audio system will be, at worst inconvenienced by the impact of another Tory government and the inevitable fallout from a poorly executed exit from the EU.

Some may even benefit from the relaxation of the financial markets that will inevitably result. 

The real victims will be those, less lucky, and mainly younger than us, in minimum wage, zero hour contracts, service sector and care sector roles. They will actually suffer.

So, the amusing spectator sport this thread narrates, that generates eloquent quips and new names for our enemies, is of little consequence other than bragging rights when the election is over, to those that called it correctly.

For some, the result of this General Election is quite literally a matter of life and death,

Paul.

Considering Labours starting position I think kermit the frog and Miss Piggy....apologies Corbyn and Diane Abbott have exceeded my expectations...

The gap in the polls is narrowing, maybe this might just be the greatest comeback since Lazzurus ????

TM needs to learn from Corbyn and start promising a few Special offers in the next few days....the great British public love a freebie....

wenger2015 posted:

... Corbyn and Diane Abbott have exceeded my expectations...

The gap in the polls is narrowing, maybe this might just be the greatest comeback since Lazzurus ????

TM needs to learn from Corbyn ....the great British public love a freebie....

Great to see you're finally on message 

We all love a freebie, as TM and JC know very well.

TM has chosen to offer freebies to Multinational Conglomerates, and billionaires, who do not get to vote, but do control the message from mass media.

JC has chosen to offer the freebies to less influential individuals who do get to vote.

So JC's freebies go to the many, not the few, hence the campaign slogan 

Paul

Vauxhall mkII posted:

wenger2015 posted:

... Corbyn and Diane Abbott have exceeded my expectations...

The gap in the polls is narrowing, maybe this might just be the greatest comeback since Lazzurus ????

TM needs to learn from Corbyn ....the great British public love a freebie....

Great to see you're finally on message 

We all love a freebie, as TM and JC know very well.

TM has chosen to offer freebies to Multinational Conglomerates, and billionaires, who do not get to vote, but do control the message from mass media.

JC has chosen to offer the freebies to less influential individuals who do get to vote.

So JC's freebies go to the many, not the few, hence the campaign slogan 

Paul

Yes, we don't want strong and stable freebies...

Vauxhall mkII posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

So. To sum up Mike and HH above, we're f**cked !

 

Unfortunately, Don, your wrong.

Those of us, lucky enough to have the disposable income to afford a Naim based audio system will be, at worst inconvenienced by the impact of another Tory government and the inevitable fallout from a poorly executed exit from the EU.

Some may even benefit from the relaxation of the financial markets that will inevitably result. 

The real victims will be those, less lucky, and mainly younger than us, in minimum wage, zero hour contracts, service sector and care sector roles. They will actually suffer.

So, the amusing spectator sport this thread narrates, that generates eloquent quips and new names for our enemies, is of little consequence other than bragging rights when the election is over, to those that called it correctly.

For some, the result of this General Election is quite literally a matter of life and death,

Paul.

Ah, Paul. When I said "we" I meant "we" as a "Nation" ie evrybody, including my children and grandchildren, not just those of "us" on this here forum.

Eloise posted:

That pre-supposes she was a remainer in the first place and not just taking a side for the sake of gaining power.  As for U-turns: what do you call promising not to hold a GE, then doing completely the opposite; what do you call her stance on social care?

Why is any change in politics called a U-turn, whereas in business its called a policy change or plan adjustment.   I worked with a 1 year plan that included a half year review to consider any required adjustments to achieve objectives,  then at each end of year plan period we considered any adjustments required for the 3 year plan.  So this to me is all very normal.            

Calling an early GE is a sensible change in the original plan to ensure continuity over 5 years rather than the short 3 years up to 2020 to enable completion of the brexit process & whatever may be left over & longer term after that.                  

The social care proposal is long overdue, it's been a mess for so many years & no one has had the strength/vision/willingness to take on what needs to be done.   Nothing is fixed,  it's a  manifesto proposal to an existing system & as such has to go to green paper,  so hopefully the cross party cooperation system will end up with a mutually workable end result.