Labour ?

Posted by: wenger2015 on 12 February 2017

I am of no political persuasion, i am very distrusting of politicians in general and promises they make and break.

But in my humble opinion, the country needs an effective opposition party?

But in my memory, i can not recall a time when the Labour party has been in such a decline. 

Does Mr Corbyn actually know what he is doing and what is best for his party?

Does he still have the support of long term labour members?

Will the labour party ever again become an effective opposition, let alone lead the country again?

With some crucial by elections coming up, it will be interesting to see what happens?

Any thoughts?

Posted on: 06 June 2017 by Eloise
The Strat (Fender) posted:

Isn't fit ironic how the Left love spitting venom as they label the Conservatives nasty party.  

Don't worry ... I don't mind being called nasty ... you don't notice the difference though between a comment from a random individual, and the Secretary of State for International Developement?  

As for calling them the Nasty Party ... that was from something Theresa May said.

Posted on: 06 June 2017 by Timmo1341

Feel the love Eloise and ignore the f**k wits. There are quite a few of us who enjoy your erudite and well thought out commentaries. The banal attempts at sarcastic criticism simply serve to amplify your efforts at fair, measured and thoughtful contributions to this debate.

Posted on: 06 June 2017 by wenger2015

Everyone has the right to an opinion, we may agree, we may not, either way..... please keep things respectful... 

Posted on: 06 June 2017 by Eloise
Timmo1341 posted:

Feel the love Eloise and ignore the f**k wits. There are quite a few of us who enjoy your erudite and well thought out commentaries. The banal attempts at sarcastic criticism simply serve to amplify your efforts at fair, measured and thoughtful contributions to this debate.

Thank you.

Posted on: 06 June 2017 by The Strat (Fender)

Well I see it like this.  Over the last few weeks I've read in public forum that the "Tories" are "racist", "homophobic", "nazis", "c-----" , "rich bastards", "scum",     Now of course during an election the heat of the debate rises but generally I don't see that type of rhetoric coming the other way. 

Interestingly,  I.recognise  the Media play a considerable part in this but I think at least this time around the stuff I've seen in my Google Fees from the Mirror,  Guardian and Independent  at least equals the Mail, Telegraph and Express for propaganda.    

Posted on: 07 June 2017 by JamieWednesday

"Well I see it like this.  Over the last few weeks I've read in public forum that the "Tories" are "racist", "homophobic", "nazis", "c-----" , "rich bastards", "scum",     Now of course during an election the heat of the debate rises but generally I don't see that type of rhetoric coming the other way. "

Strat, in my experience that has always been the case, bizarre but there you go.

As for the press, well The Guardian particularly over recent times as become even more the arbiter of playground politics. I still read it because they are right about some things IMO (as are the right wing press) and a little bit of left wing hysteria keeps everyone's feet on the ground by blimey they have been getting very much more silly over recent years. OTH I couldn't read much of The Mail or Express without laughing either.

What I have detected this time is something that does disturb me a little. And that's the relative hard time given to some Government MP's in comparison to some MP's not in Government on mainstream TV. Don't get me wrong, I understand that if you're in Government and failing on an issue then you need to be accountable and subject to 'difficult' questions but it seems, to have gone a bit OTT sometimes.

For example BBC Breakfast just now repeatedly tried to get Damian Green to explain how the third London Bridge attacker was allowed to be in the U.K., only the day after he had been identified publicly. He was not flustered but repeatedly said something along the lines he didn't know yet but everyone's trying to find out in an ongoing investigation which he wans't going to comment on, but the BBC journo wouldn't let it lie and just kept poking until the OSB went down. A little later and Jeremy Corbyn is on, he's just given the opportunity to say all the right things again (as any opposition leader of any party would), without even begining to account for how to actually do all these wonderful things and how the costs are going to be met. And then they ask him how is allotment is doing!

I think if you're going to show balance within two interview half an hour apart, then be balanced. Either do the anodyne One Show stuff for both, or kick 'em both in the nuts.

Posted on: 07 June 2017 by Timmo1341
JamieWednesday posted:

"Well I see it like this.  Over the last few weeks I've read in public forum that the "Tories" are "racist", "homophobic", "nazis", "c-----" , "rich bastards", "scum",     Now of course during an election the heat of the debate rises but generally I don't see that type of rhetoric coming the other way. "

Strat, in my experience that has always been the case, bizarre but there you go.

As for the press, well The Guardian particularly over recent times as become even more the arbiter of playground politics. I still read it because they are right about some things IMO (as are the right wing press) and a little bit of left wing hysteria keeps everyone's feet on the ground by blimey they have been getting very much more silly over recent years. OTH I couldn't read much of The Mail or Express without laughing either.

What I have detected this time is something that does disturb me a little. And that's the relative hard time given to some Government MP's in comparison to some MP's not in Government on mainstream TV. Don't get me wrong, I understand that if you're in Government and failing on an issue then you need to be accountable and subject to 'difficult' questions but it seems, to have gone a bit OTT sometimes.

For example BBC Breakfast just now repeatedly tried to get Damian Green to explain how the third London Bridge attacker was allowed to be in the U.K., only the day after he had been identified publicly. He was not flustered but repeatedly said something along the lines he didn't know yet but everyone's trying to find out in an ongoing investigation which he wans't going to comment on, but the BBC journo wouldn't let it lie and just kept poking until the OSB went down. A little later and Jeremy Corbyn is on, he's just given the opportunity to say all the right things again (as any opposition leader of any party would), without even begining to account for how to actually do all these wonderful things and how the costs are going to be met. And then they ask him how is allotment is doing!

I think if you're going to show balance within two interview half an hour apart, then be balanced. Either do the anodyne One Show stuff for both, or kick 'em both in the nuts.

As you've taken a few minutes of your life to express your opinion on this forum which has, let's face it, very limited exposure, I very much hope you've done the 'right thing' and made your complaint formally to the BBC Trust?

Posted on: 07 June 2017 by Timmo1341
wenger2015 posted:

Everyone has the right to an opinion, we may agree, we may not, either way..... please keep things respectful... 

You're no fun at all, Wenger!! Got to have a little cut and thrust to keep it interesting, those with too thin a skin need to log off and go to bed with another cup of Ovaltine.

Posted on: 07 June 2017 by wenger2015
Timmo1341 posted:
wenger2015 posted:

Everyone has the right to an opinion, we may agree, we may not, either way..... please keep things respectful... 

You're no fun at all, Wenger!! Got to have a little cut and thrust to keep it interesting, those with too thin a skin need to log off and go to bed with another cup of Ovaltine.

I enjoy the strong opinions, and the banter, and compared to some business people I deal with on a day to day basis, the forum for me, serves as a little lighthearted relive from it all.

But this thread has already been removed once for over the top comments by some. so I prefer to keep it going.

That said, let's crack on....

Ps I'm more a woods rum man, then ovaltine..

Posted on: 07 June 2017 by Timmo1341
wenger2015 posted:
Timmo1341 posted:
wenger2015 posted:

Everyone has the right to an opinion, we may agree, we may not, either way..... please keep things respectful... 

You're no fun at all, Wenger!! Got to have a little cut and thrust to keep it interesting, those with too thin a skin need to log off and go to bed with another cup of Ovaltine.

I enjoy the strong opinions, and the banter, and compared to some business people I deal with on a day to day basis, the forum for me, serves as a little lighthearted relive from it all.

But this thread has already been removed once for over the top comments by some. so I prefer to keep it going.

That said, let's crack on....

Ps I'm more a woods rum man, then ovaltine..

Have you tried the Cornish "Dead Man's Fingers' rum? Rum isn't normally my tipple, but this is to die for!! Apologies for thread diversion.

Posted on: 07 June 2017 by wenger2015
Timmo1341 posted:
wenger2015 posted:
Timmo1341 posted:
wenger2015 posted:

Everyone has the right to an opinion, we may agree, we may not, either way..... please keep things respectful... 

You're no fun at all, Wenger!! Got to have a little cut and thrust to keep it interesting, those with too thin a skin need to log off and go to bed with another cup of Ovaltine.

I enjoy the strong opinions, and the banter, and compared to some business people I deal with on a day to day basis, the forum for me, serves as a little lighthearted relive from it all.

But this thread has already been removed once for over the top comments by some. so I prefer to keep it going.

That said, let's crack on....

Ps I'm more a woods rum man, then ovaltine..

Have you tried the Cornish "Dead Man's Fingers' rum? Rum isn't normally my tipple, but this is to die for!! Apologies for thread diversion.

No, I haven't, but I will be heading for St Ives in a few weeks for a break, so will give it a try, thanks for the recommendation.. 

Posted on: 07 June 2017 by Timmo1341
wenger2015 posted:
Timmo1341 posted:
wenger2015 posted:
Timmo1341 posted:
wenger2015 posted:

Everyone has the right to an opinion, we may agree, we may not, either way..... please keep things respectful... 

You're no fun at all, Wenger!! Got to have a little cut and thrust to keep it interesting, those with too thin a skin need to log off and go to bed with another cup of Ovaltine.

I enjoy the strong opinions, and the banter, and compared to some business people I deal with on a day to day basis, the forum for me, serves as a little lighthearted relive from it all.

But this thread has already been removed once for over the top comments by some. so I prefer to keep it going.

That said, let's crack on....

Ps I'm more a woods rum man, then ovaltine..

Have you tried the Cornish "Dead Man's Fingers' rum? Rum isn't normally my tipple, but this is to die for!! Apologies for thread diversion.

No, I haven't, but I will be heading for St Ives in a few weeks for a break, so will give it a try, thanks for the recommendation.. 

Try it at the Rum & Crab Shack, whilst eating a tempura soft shell crab burger - heaven!!

Posted on: 07 June 2017 by Eloise
wenger2015 posted:
No, I haven't, but I will be heading for St Ives in a few weeks for a break, so will give it a try, thanks for the recommendation.. 

Watch out for men with 7 wives...

Posted on: 07 June 2017 by Eloise

Just incase anyone really isn't voting labour just because of the risk of Diane Abbott becoming Home Secretary.  Thats looking increasingly unlikely with her reportedly stepping aside "indefinitely" due to her current ill health.

Posted on: 07 June 2017 by hungryhalibut

I read that she was 'taking a break' due to ill health. I'm sure she is a great constituency MP, but she's been something of an electoral liability. Corbyn has done really well and has improved immeasurably during the last few weeks, whereas May just trots out the same tired soundbites. Let's hope that, if the Tories do win, she has some decent people at the Brexit strong and stable table, because May herself seems unable to move and flex as is so critical in negotiations, and if she continues to spout as she does, she'll only get more and more barriers put up. 

But put May aside -  LABOUR ARE GOING TO WIN!!! 

Posted on: 07 June 2017 by Mike-B

As a person who tends to favour Concervative I own up to agreeing with you HH,  all except that last sentence that is.   I've been very disappointed with the Tory campaign, lack lustre, no joined up thinking ..... It's a long list,  the sound bites have been really tiresome.   JC has been surprising in his efforts but sorry whilst he's a great socialist activist but he's a not very good in the labour leaderership role & no way a PM.    Finally I do have a lot of confidence in the Concervative brexit team,  unlike any & all others from any other party.

Posted on: 07 June 2017 by Eloise
Mike-B posted:

Finally I do have a lot of confidence in the Concervative brexit team,  unlike any & all others from any other party.

You have confidence in David Davis, Boris Johnson and Liam Fox?

Posted on: 07 June 2017 by rodwsmith

The prospect of a Trump/Corbyn meeting, on British soil, in the company of the Queen, as part of a State Visit, is surely so delicious that even dyed-in-the-wool Tories must be tempted...

 

Posted on: 07 June 2017 by Hmack
Hungryhalibut posted:

I read that she was 'taking a break' due to ill health. I'm sure she is a great constituency MP, but she's been something of an electoral liability. Corbyn has done really well and has improved immeasurably during the last few weeks, whereas May just trots out the same tired soundbites. Let's hope that, if the Tories do win, she has some decent people at the Brexit strong and stable table, because May herself seems unable to move and flex as is so critical in negotiations, and if she continues to spout as she does, she'll only get more and more barriers put up. 

But put May aside -  LABOUR ARE GOING TO WIN!!! 

Let's hope so!

A bit too much to hope for I guess, but at least it may not be the landslide victory that May & her cronies expected when she so opportunistically called the election. Our consolation will be that May's own stock with the British electorate has been very deservedly significantly reduced.

May, Hammond, Hunt, Rudd, Fox, Davis & Johnson - what a sorry lot! Almost (but not quite) makes one think that Cameron, Osborne & his lot weren't quite so bad after all. But then when I look back, we also had May, Gove & Letwin. How could that have been much better?

Theresa May penned & revelled in the phrase "The Nasty Party". Unfortunately, when the Tories win the election (sorry HH), I suspect that she & her colleagues will almost certainly fully live up to the tag, in respect of the Brexit negotiations, a lurch to the right with the continued running down of the NHS and the State Education systems, and the general distribution of wealth from the poorest to the richest members of our society.

Still, one can dream, at least for one more day.

Posted on: 07 June 2017 by Hmack
The Strat (Fender) posted:

Isn't fit ironic how the Left love spitting venom as they label the Conservatives nasty party.  

Strat,

That sounds so much like a mirror of the Trump supporters claiming that the Democrats are the real 'baddies', just because they dare to criticise his indiscretions, lies & behavioural defects.  

Posted on: 07 June 2017 by hungryhalibut
Eloise posted:
Mike-B posted:

Finally I do have a lot of confidence in the Concervative brexit team,  unlike any & all others from any other party.

You have confidence in David Davis, Boris Johnson and Liam Fox?

Although Labour are going to win, should people end up voting the Tories back in, it will be interesting to see whether the inept threesome continue in the Brexit role. May voted to remain and when leave won, I'm sure she said to those three, who of course were on the leave side, 'ok, you got us into this mess, now get us out of it'. To give bungling Boris any responsible role is risky, though to his credit he is at least honest (such as the proxy war comment) whereas the other two are simply right wing Tory drones. 

Posted on: 07 June 2017 by Mike-B
Eloise posted:
Mike-B posted:

Finally I do have a lot of confidence in the Concervative brexit team,  unlike any & all others from any other party.

You have confidence in David Davis, Boris Johnson and Liam Fox?

Yes

Posted on: 07 June 2017 by JamieWednesday
Hungryhalibut posted:

 

But put May aside -  LABOUR ARE GOING TO WIN!!! 

None of the bookies agree with you but if you're sure, you can get very good odds on Jeremy Corbyn being P.M. at all of them.

Maybe time to "put your money...etc."

Posted on: 07 June 2017 by Cdb
Mike-B posted:
Eloise posted:
Mike-B posted:

Finally I do have a lot of confidence in the Concervative brexit team,  unlike any & all others from any other party.

You have confidence in David Davis, Boris Johnson and Liam Fox?

Yes

I think you have more confidence than the Tory campaign as dodgy Liam Fox has been completely invisible for the last three weeks and not seen much before that!

One thing I simply do not understand is the 'strong' negotiating position of May - I mean the 'No deal is better than a bad deal' claim. Given the serious economic damage that is predicted if that were to be the case, it's a ridiculous negotiating position - not far removed from saying if you don't give me what I want I'll shoot myself.

Clive

Posted on: 07 June 2017 by Bananahead
JamieWednesday posted:
Hungryhalibut posted:

 

But put May aside -  LABOUR ARE GOING TO WIN!!! 

None of the bookies agree with you but if you're sure, you can get very good odds on Jeremy Corbyn being P.M. at all of them.

Maybe time to "put your money...etc."

"Back in the EU referendum, the betting odds favoured Remain because more money had been placed on it, even though a greater number of individual bets were on Leave.

In the US Presidential election, Clinton was favourite because more money was put on her, but many more people were betting on Trump.

In this general election more money has been placed on the Conservatives, but a shitload more bets are on Labour. "