Labour ?

MDS posted:

Eloise posted:

MDS posted:

Eloise posted:

The big fear / disappointment is that Theresa May has a "business as usual" attitude, not seeming to accept any responsibility or accepting that perhaps the people think her approach must change.

A lot of the Tory party are rallying around her, pinning the blame on (albeit highly placed / paid) "functionaries".  A typical blame game situation.

Will the government last ... the big fear is it will!

If that's really what she thinks, it would shows a continuing weakness, and such an approach simply won't work anyway. However, TM is an intelligent lady of some experience and I suspect (and hope) that what we are seeing is the only face she knows how to display while she does some hard thinking in private and with a few trustees before we see a new approach.  If not the new Conservative government won't last long. It could be killed from within, not just by the strengthened opposition.   

From what I'm reading, the problem is she is still relying on a small number of people ... if she can get away from those and replace them with people who will give advise however unpalatable and she is willing to accept that advise, then there is hope.  The problem is that as far as I can see in the past she has surrounded herself with "Yes Men" (and women) where - like all good leaders - she needs people to challenge her thinking.

And her two key advisers, who were with her during her days as Home Secretary, have just resigned.  Probably not voluntarily.  Anyway, I think that's a very significant sign of acceptance that things need to change going forward.  

They should find new employment quite easily I believe Jeremy Corbyn has written glowing references for both of them.

Pcd posted:

MDS posted:

Eloise posted:

MDS posted:

Eloise posted:

The big fear / disappointment is that Theresa May has a "business as usual" attitude, not seeming to accept any responsibility or accepting that perhaps the people think her approach must change.

A lot of the Tory party are rallying around her, pinning the blame on (albeit highly placed / paid) "functionaries".  A typical blame game situation.

Will the government last ... the big fear is it will!

If that's really what she thinks, it would shows a continuing weakness, and such an approach simply won't work anyway. However, TM is an intelligent lady of some experience and I suspect (and hope) that what we are seeing is the only face she knows how to display while she does some hard thinking in private and with a few trustees before we see a new approach.  If not the new Conservative government won't last long. It could be killed from within, not just by the strengthened opposition.   

From what I'm reading, the problem is she is still relying on a small number of people ... if she can get away from those and replace them with people who will give advise however unpalatable and she is willing to accept that advise, then there is hope.  The problem is that as far as I can see in the past she has surrounded herself with "Yes Men" (and women) where - like all good leaders - she needs people to challenge her thinking.

And her two key advisers, who were with her during her days as Home Secretary, have just resigned.  Probably not voluntarily.  Anyway, I think that's a very significant sign of acceptance that things need to change going forward.  

They should find new employment quite easily I believe Jeremy Corbyn has written glowing references for both of them.

I wonder if Trump is still recruiting?

Eloise posted:

In reply to MDS above...

Is the resignations a sign she is acknowledging a problem; or simply reacting to threats from within her party and an attempt to cling to power?

Apparently the BBC's sources in the party said there was a private ultimatum that they had to be gone by Monday or there'd be a leadership election. 

Bananahead posted:

wenger2015 posted:

I am of no political persuasion, i am very distrusting of politicians in general and promises they make and break.

But in my humble opinion, the country needs an effective opposition party?

But in my memory, i can not recall a time when the Labour party has been in such a decline. 

Does Mr Corbyn actually know what he is doing and what is best for his party?

Does he still have the support of long term labour members?

Will the labour party ever again become an effective opposition, let alone lead the country again?

With some crucial by elections coming up, it will be interesting to see what happens?

Any thoughts?

And what do you think now?

The need for a more effective opposition is essential, so at least we have a situation now, where it appears Labour may have achieved that necessary requirement.

The Corbyn bashers have been well and truly silenced.

I would much prefer the government to have a majority and not be dependent on DUP, but that said they will now have to tread far more carefully as they go about the business of negotiations on brexit. 

It's also just a matter of time before May gets a vote of no confidence by her fellow Conservatives, unless she is able to re-invent herself somehow and get in touch with the electorates increasing dislike of further austerity,  (although I admire the commitment to get the deficit down, their comes a time when you do have to balance that with giving something back) .

It will be interesting to see if Mrs May has an honest appraisal of what's gone wrong, eats a large slice of humble pie and starts to rectify the situation, considering the fact she remains PM, she is in the perfect position to do so.

I am pleased Corbyn didn't actually win, because becoming Santa Claus achieved his success, actually having to carry out those promises will have only ended badly for him, to achieve his massive giveaway and spend spend spend is unsustainable and would have undone the good work of the Conservatives austerity.

Are we in a better situation post election, definitely.

We have a government that have had a good kick up the backside and hopefully will respond accordingly. 

And we have an opposition party that have a mandate to be heard now, with some respect ,which they previously didn't have..

Old "news" but I just read this...

From a tweet from John Prescott... "Heard from very good source who was there that Rupert Murdoch stormed out of The Times Election Party after seeing the Exit Poll" (followed by "crying with laughter" emoticon)

wenger2015 posted:

Bananahead posted:

wenger2015 posted:

I am of no political persuasion, i am very distrusting of politicians in general and promises they make and break.

But in my humble opinion, the country needs an effective opposition party?

But in my memory, i can not recall a time when the Labour party has been in such a decline. 

Does Mr Corbyn actually know what he is doing and what is best for his party?

Does he still have the support of long term labour members?

Will the labour party ever again become an effective opposition, let alone lead the country again?

With some crucial by elections coming up, it will be interesting to see what happens?

Any thoughts?

And what do you think now?

The need for a more effective opposition is essential, so at least we have a situation now, where it appears Labour may have achieved that necessary requirement.

The Corbyn bashers have been well and truly silenced.

I would much prefer the government to have a majority and not be dependent on DUP, but that said they will now have to tread far more carefully as they go about the business of negotiations on brexit. 

It's also just a matter of time before May gets a vote of no confidence by her fellow Conservatives, unless she is able to re-invent herself somehow and get in touch with the electorates increasing dislike of further austerity,  (although I admire the commitment to get the deficit down, their comes a time when you do have to balance that with giving something back) .

It will be interesting to see if Mrs May has an honest appraisal of what's gone wrong, eats a large slice of humble pie and starts to rectify the situation, considering the fact she remains PM, she is in the perfect position to do so.

I am pleased Corbyn didn't actually win, because becoming Santa Claus achieved his success, actually having to carry out those promises will have only ended badly for him, to achieve his massive giveaway and spend spend spend is unsustainable and would have undone the good work of the Conservatives austerity.

Are we in a better situation post election, definitely.

We have a government that have had a good kick up the backside and hopefully will respond accordingly. 

And we have an opposition party that have a mandate to be heard now, with some respect ,which they previously didn't have..

Oops my text got lost!  I was taken aback by "the good work of the Conservatives austerity" I presume you mean the good work they have done for the NHS, school funding, police numbers, ambulance services, social care, etc, etc?

wenger2015 posted:

Bananahead posted:

wenger2015 posted:

I am of no political persuasion, i am very distrusting of politicians in general and promises they make and break.

But in my humble opinion, the country needs an effective opposition party?

But in my memory, i can not recall a time when the Labour party has been in such a decline. 

Does Mr Corbyn actually know what he is doing and what is best for his party?

Does he still have the support of long term labour members?

Will the labour party ever again become an effective opposition, let alone lead the country again?

With some crucial by elections coming up, it will be interesting to see what happens?

Any thoughts?

And what do you think now?

The need for a more effective opposition is essential, so at least we have a situation now, where it appears Labour may have achieved that necessary requirement.

The Corbyn bashers have been well and truly silenced.

I would much prefer the government to have a majority and not be dependent on DUP, but that said they will now have to tread far more carefully as they go about the business of negotiations on brexit. 

It's also just a matter of time before May gets a vote of no confidence by her fellow Conservatives, unless she is able to re-invent herself somehow and get in touch with the electorates increasing dislike of further austerity,  (although I admire the commitment to get the deficit down, their comes a time when you do have to balance that with giving something back) .

It will be interesting to see if Mrs May has an honest appraisal of what's gone wrong, eats a large slice of humble pie and starts to rectify the situation, considering the fact she remains PM, she is in the perfect position to do so.

I am pleased Corbyn didn't actually win, because becoming Santa Claus achieved his success, actually having to carry out those promises will have only ended badly for him, to achieve his massive giveaway and spend spend spend is unsustainable and would have undone the good work of the Conservatives austerity.

Are we in a better situation post election, definitely.

We have a government that have had a good kick up the backside and hopefully will respond accordingly. 

And we have an opposition party that have a mandate to be heard now, with some respect ,which they previously didn't have..

Thats an accurate assesment and you have voiced my feelings.

AndrewG posted:

Oops my text got lost!  I was taken aback by "the good work of the Conservatives austerity" I presume you mean the good work they have done for the NHS, school funding, police numbers, ambulance services, social care, etc, etc?

I think the problem with 'austerity' is that while most financially literate people understand that the country needs to live within its means and have generally supported the government's efforts to get the deficit down, in practice the sacrifices have not been made by everyone.  Most people have been squeezed and seen the public services they rely on squeezed even harder. BUT the richest in society have not felt this squeeze. Indeed they have thrived.  And this has been going on since the banking crash and still there is no end in sight (because the government have regularly put back the date at which it says the deficit will be closed).  I would suggest that most people are simply fed up with it, and many incensed that the burden is carried by the majority while the richest just keep getting richer.  Whether in practice anything can be done about this, the richest being quite skilled at preserving their wealth, I don't know but I think the election result showed that growing numbers of the electorate are prepared to support an alternative approach.     

Romi posted:

wenger2015 posted:

Bananahead posted:

wenger2015 posted:

I am of no political persuasion, i am very distrusting of politicians in general and promises they make and break.

But in my humble opinion, the country needs an effective opposition party?

But in my memory, i can not recall a time when the Labour party has been in such a decline. 

Does Mr Corbyn actually know what he is doing and what is best for his party?

Does he still have the support of long term labour members?

Will the labour party ever again become an effective opposition, let alone lead the country again?

With some crucial by elections coming up, it will be interesting to see what happens?

Any thoughts?

And what do you think now?

The need for a more effective opposition is essential, so at least we have a situation now, where it appears Labour may have achieved that necessary requirement.

The Corbyn bashers have been well and truly silenced.

I would much prefer the government to have a majority and not be dependent on DUP, but that said they will now have to tread far more carefully as they go about the business of negotiations on brexit. 

It's also just a matter of time before May gets a vote of no confidence by her fellow Conservatives, unless she is able to re-invent herself somehow and get in touch with the electorates increasing dislike of further austerity,  (although I admire the commitment to get the deficit down, their comes a time when you do have to balance that with giving something back) .

It will be interesting to see if Mrs May has an honest appraisal of what's gone wrong, eats a large slice of humble pie and starts to rectify the situation, considering the fact she remains PM, she is in the perfect position to do so.

I am pleased Corbyn didn't actually win, because becoming Santa Claus achieved his success, actually having to carry out those promises will have only ended badly for him, to achieve his massive giveaway and spend spend spend is unsustainable and would have undone the good work of the Conservatives austerity.

Are we in a better situation post election, definitely.

We have a government that have had a good kick up the backside and hopefully will respond accordingly. 

And we have an opposition party that have a mandate to be heard now, with some respect ,which they previously didn't have..

Thats an accurate assesment and you have voiced my feelings.

Mine too.

Everyone  needs to calm down. 

MDS posted:

AndrewG posted:

Oops my text got lost!  I was taken aback by "the good work of the Conservatives austerity" I presume you mean the good work they have done for the NHS, school funding, police numbers, ambulance services, social care, etc, etc?

I think the problem with 'austerity' is that while most financially literate people understand that the country needs to live within its means and have generally supported the government's efforts to get the deficit down, in practice the sacrifices have not been made by everyone.  

Well to a certain extent.  Living within your means for a country is not and never has been comparable to balancing the household budget which is what Osbourne continually preached.  Investment in services and infrastructure is as important, maybe more so, in periods of rescission than periods of growth.

Most people have been squeezed and seen the public services they rely on squeezed even harder. BUT the richest in society have not felt this squeeze. Indeed they have thrived.

It may have been only a perception rather than the truth, but the government (and MPs generally) were very good at preaching "we're all in this together" and that government expenditure should be restricted to the essentials while awarding themselves significant pay rises and "living it up" on their expenses.  Individuals were seeing tax cuts at the top end and in corporation tax, while they were feeling the pinch from low wage increases and cuts to i work benefits.  That's not to say the tax cuts weren't justified and perhaps caused increase in investment in the country and therefore increase in tax receipts, but the perception was the less well off were squeezed while the rich were rewarded.

And this has been going on since the banking crash and still there is no end in sight (because the government have regularly put back the date at which it says the deficit will be closed).  I would suggest that most people are simply fed up with it, and many incensed that the burden is carried by the majority while the richest just keep getting richer.  

I suspect most most people just have got fed up and realised that the Conservatives don't care.  Their election campaign was run on a basis of "if you don't vote for us you'll let them in".  They couldn't tell us what they wanted to do in any kind of detail - even flag ship policies like paying for social care was "we will consult after the election".

Labour and Corbyn on the other hand ran a (generally) positive campaign.  "We stand for this"; "We plan to do that" concrete plans.  That they might have been impractical financially was not the point, people wanted positive action.

Whether in practice anything can be done about this, the richest being quite skilled at preserving their wealth, I don't know but I think the election result showed that growing numbers of the electorate are prepared to support an alternative approach.     

+1

Eloise - I think I saw a study a few weeks ago, may have been by the IFS, which showed that the inequality gap was now wider than ever before, and that those at top had an even bigger share of wealth now than the had before the banking crisis. So it's more than just a perception. 

MDS posted:

Eloise - I think I saw a study a few weeks ago, may have been by the IFS, which showed that the inequality gap was now wider than ever before, and that those at top had an even bigger share of wealth now than the had before the banking crisis. So it's more than just a perception. 

I totally agree with you, didn't mean to give the impression I though the inequality gap was only a perception.  

I've seen that the gap is real and growing in my own community.

The "perception" I was meaning was linking cuts in services to being able to give tax cuts to the rich.

I'm going to listen to my hi fi.soothing sounds.high quality Naim sound.

thats my political stance

a little Roger Waters maybe

Simon Lovell posted:

a little Roger Waters maybe

Was that meant to be ironic?

Not sure if Lord Buckethead was happy with his result.

Well its congratulations for a fantastic campaign and electorate gains for Ruth Davidson and Jeremy Corbyn ... commiserations for their moderate to huge losses  for Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon respectively.. although both still have the largest vote share and seats in their domains.

i think most agree May's campaign was appalling, and Corbyn's superb... even things like Corbyn holding most of his rallies in labour strongholds with TV coverage of positive noise and supporters... whilst May was nearly always in marginals or strong non Tory seats where there was always images of protesters and smaller gatherings of supporters.. it had a very powerful effect... something of the Trump stage management about it...

Thankgoodness Nick Timothy and Fiona Cunningham have gone... certainly appears not much love lost there and it looks like political mover the DUP's Arlene Foster will now reverse the planned changes to the triple lock and pension allowances amongst other things in return for 'supply and confidence', however newly empowered Davidson has already flexed her LGBT  muscles over this relationship... and it is a tightrope walk within NI devolved government framework..

But despite all this one of the key messages for me which we heard so little about from either side was about our growing crippling debt which saps ever more  significant funds away from our social security, education and health budgets. The platitudes from Corbyn about improving this I think most would go along with, but we are so debt ridden it's not straightforward... I am afraid taxing the top 5% more who already significantly provide most of the income tax burden  in the U.K. just doesn't doesn't address this... it's a drop in the ocean.. not sufficiently progressive.

And for me I felt that there was a total lack of honesty and transparency from Corbyn on this, and equally bad May just didn't play this card at all, or a best the odd vague half hearted quip about the 'magic money tree'. No wonder so many of our electorate don't seem to not understand this. May and Corbyn should have had a head to head TV debate on this... again May could have played her hand so differently.

When labour last left office the cupboard was bare, it only has cans of beans in it now... yet Corbyn was planning a feast again to only then let down his guests no doubt then blaming  the stores for not giving him extended credit.. whilst May seemed to not want to be explain to her guests why they were only still eating beans and did it in a patronising way and served those beans up in a way that turned up the noses of those that normally like them.

Yanis Farouvakis must be scratching his head on this... does the UK really want to go the same path as Greece... they know real austerity now. I am afraid this election to me was a poor one, certainly in England it was the least honest and transparent one I can remember from either side.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Well its congratulations for a fantastic campaign and electorate gains for Ruth Davidson and Jeremy Corbyn ... commiserations for their moderate to huge losses  for Theresa May and Nicola Sturgeon respectively.. although both still have the largest vote share and seats in their domains.

i think most agree May's campaign was appalling, and Corbyn's superb... even things like Corbyn holding most of his rallies in labour strongholds with TV coverage of positive noise and supporters... whilst May was nearly always in marginals or strong non Tory seats where there was always images of protesters and smaller gatherings of supporters.. it had a very powerful effect... something of the Trump stage management about it...

Thankgoodness Nick Timothy and Fiona Cunningham have gone... certainly appears not much love lost there and it looks like political mover the DUP's Arlene Foster will now reverse the planned changes to the triple lock and pension allowances amongst other things in return for 'supply and confidence', however newly empowered Davidson has already flexed her LGBT  muscles over this relationship... and it is a tightrope walk within NI devolved government framework..

But despite all this one of the key messages for me which we heard so little about from either side was about our growing crippling debt which saps ever more  significant funds away from our social security, education and health budgets. The platitudes from Corbyn about improving this I think most would go along with, but we are so debt ridden it's not straightforward... I am afraid taxing the top 5% more who already significantly provide most of the income tax burden  in the U.K. just doesn't doesn't address this... it's a drop in the ocean.. not sufficiently progressive.

And for me I felt that there was a total lack of honesty and transparency from Corbyn on this, and equally bad May just didn't play this card at all, or a best the odd vague half hearted quip about the 'magic money tree'. No wonder so many of our electorate don't seem to not understand this. May and Corbyn should have had a head to head TV debate on this... again May could have played her hand so differently.

When labour last left office the cupboard was bare, it only has cans of beans in it now... yet Corbyn was planning a feast again.. whilst May seemed not want to be explain to her guests why they were only still eating beans and did it in a patronising way and served those beans up in a way that turned up the noses of those that normally like them.

Yanis Farouvakis must be scratching his head on this... does the UK really want to go the same path as Greece... they know real austerity now. I am afraid this election to me was a poor one, certainly in England it was the least honest and transparent one I can remember from either side.

 

Agree with all this.

Also brexit is throwing up all sorts of uncertainties, we don't know how well the economy is going to do when we exit the EU so how do we know we can afford what Corbyn says we can afford. If my job is uncertain I don't promise my family everything I have no certainty I can give them. 

I think schools should teach more on how money works. This country is in so much debt its daft, we're on a knife edge. 

I was listening to the radio the other day and a listener phoned in and said this country is not suffering austerity. After the gasps from the interviewer he went on to explain if you want to know what austerity is you look at Greece. I think he's right.  I think we will see real austerity in this country in the future unless all the political parties grow up. 

Interesting about the radio comment on Greece .. yes I agree we sometimes need to open our eyes beyond our own borders to see how relatively well or poorly positioned we are to many... and for those that are in a worse position than us, look at why...and what predominately caused it.. 

I still think the UK has a post colonial feel to its spending, and in truth I feel that has been one of big challenges since 1944... many feel it can spend and be supported by others.. the truth is we don't have any more an empire to exploit or benavent partner to prop us up.. we have to borrow on the global market.. and if they loose confidence in our prudence  the cost of that borrowing will sky rocket and then we will start to feel real austerity... and I just prey that day doesn't happen as that will mean real hardship to vast swathes of the population.. impacting massively those most reliant on the state.. and that will polarise Britain between the haves and have nots, and despite Corbyn's well meaning intent I suspect the outcome will be the complete opposite... we are not in our own ideological little bubble.

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Interesting about the radio comment on Greece .. yes I agree we sometimes need to open our eyes beyond our own borders to see how relatively well or poorly positioned we are to many... and for those that are in a worse position than us, look at why...and what predominately caused it.. 

I still think the UK has a post colonial feel to its spending, and in truth I feel that has been one of big challenges since 1944... many feel it can spend and be supported by others.. the truth is we don't have any more an empire to exploit or benavent partner to prop us up.. we have to borrow on the global market.. and if they loose confidence in our prudence  the cost of that borrowing will sky rocket and then we will start to feel real austerity... and I just prey that day doesn't happen as that will mean real hardship to vast swathes of the population.. impacting massively those most reliant on the state.. and that will polarise Britain between the haves and have nots, and despite Corbyn's well meaning intent I suspect the outcome will be the complete opposite... we are not in our own ideological little bubble.

If we hadn't voted for Brexit, NONE of these problems would exist ! Simples

I've just heard this from John Gray and found it helpful:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b08spwl6

Don Atkinson posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Interesting about the radio comment on Greece .. yes I agree we sometimes need to open our eyes beyond our own borders to see how relatively well or poorly positioned we are to many... and for those that are in a worse position than us, look at why...and what predominately caused it.. 

I still think the UK has a post colonial feel to its spending, and in truth I feel that has been one of big challenges since 1944... many feel it can spend and be supported by others.. the truth is we don't have any more an empire to exploit or benavent partner to prop us up.. we have to borrow on the global market.. and if they loose confidence in our prudence  the cost of that borrowing will sky rocket and then we will start to feel real austerity... and I just prey that day doesn't happen as that will mean real hardship to vast swathes of the population.. impacting massively those most reliant on the state.. and that will polarise Britain between the haves and have nots, and despite Corbyn's well meaning intent I suspect the outcome will be the complete opposite... we are not in our own ideological little bubble.

If we hadn't voted for Brexit, NONE of these problems would exist ! Simples

They were there before brexit.

Don Atkinson posted:

If we hadn't voted for Brexit, NONE of these problems would exist ! Simples

But we have, Don, please get over it!

Don Atkinson posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Interesting about the radio comment on Greece .. yes I agree we sometimes need to open our eyes beyond our own borders to see how relatively well or poorly positioned we are to many... and for those that are in a worse position than us, look at why...and what predominately caused it.. 

I still think the UK has a post colonial feel to its spending, and in truth I feel that has been one of big challenges since 1944... many feel it can spend and be supported by others.. the truth is we don't have any more an empire to exploit or benavent partner to prop us up.. we have to borrow on the global market.. and if they loose confidence in our prudence  the cost of that borrowing will sky rocket and then we will start to feel real austerity... and I just prey that day doesn't happen as that will mean real hardship to vast swathes of the population.. impacting massively those most reliant on the state.. and that will polarise Britain between the haves and have nots, and despite Corbyn's well meaning intent I suspect the outcome will be the complete opposite... we are not in our own ideological little bubble.

If we hadn't voted for Brexit, NONE of these problems would exist ! Simples

Do you think so... I am not so sure and it's far from simple........ the EU project itself has perhaps masked some of these systemic issues we have with our own crippling debt. Remember we were in the EU when we just about bankrupt as a country when labour last left office which we still appear to be trying to recover from all these years later.. and of course Greece is in the EU and Euro zone and has had austerity imposed on it by foreign powers.

I think the UK must put its own house in order and get its debt and finance structure in control by pulling it own levers.. and then I hope despite formally leaving the EU we can  still be part of the common market in some form which is of course what we originally voted into... not the EU federal project.

Just like in the U.K. where we are disproportionately reliant on a tiny part of the population for tax revenue, I think the EU is disproportionately reliant on Germany... both are unstable ... I think the EU is in for a bumpy ride in its current form (as is the UK).. probably better we parallel track it for the time being... it's a symbiotic relationship, both  benefit from each other to a certain extent. Once both are reformed and repaired we may rejoin our union in many years to come.. but I think we need space apart to repair the damage we each internally have.