Labour ?

Norton posted

Maybe she cares more about running the country , setting up a public enquiry and allocating £5 million in immediate aid, rather than posing  for Momentum social media photo opportunities?

I live in London too, but I wonder who's actually stoking the anger?

Is this a serious post? Nobody's stoking the anger, and you know it. There might be a few SWP banners being waved about, but those entryist wankers try and exploit every issue that pops up. Nobody takes them seriously. The anger is real and spontaneous, from people who've lost homes and loved ones, who've been abandoned by their local authority (if not the local community).

It is part of a PM's job to be be seen to lead as 'well as running the country' (which she hasn't done particularly well over the past few months in any case). Responding quickly to disasters and being seen in public is part of that job. Hiding away because "security concerns" (which didn't seem to concern the Queen, an old lady of 91) is not.

You are just making paper-thin excuses for her, but I suspect you already know that, don't you?

May cares about very little, except her party (she is the ultimate party hack) and her ambition. Once she achieved the top spot, we all found out that she was made of absolutely nothing, and that she has no balls (and not just because she's a woman).

Modelling ill-cut but very expensive leather trousers is more her thing. Running the country should be left to those who are  more competent. If you're a Tory I suggest you ditch her before your party loses all credibility.

I fully agree with you. The Maybot should have resigned last week. She is a failed leader. 

Kevin-W posted:

Norton posted

Maybe she cares more about running the country , setting up a public enquiry and allocating £5 million in immediate aid, rather than posing  for Momentum social media photo opportunities?

I live in London too, but I wonder who's actually stoking the anger?

Is this a serious post? Nobody's stoking the anger, and you know it. There might be a few SWP banners being waved about, but those entryist wankers try and exploit every issue that pops up. Nobody takes them seriously. The anger is real and spontaneous, from people who've lost homes and loved ones, who've been abandoned by their local authority (if not the local community).

It is part of a PM's job to be be seen to lead as 'well as running the country' (which she hasn't done particularly well over the past few months in any case). Responding quickly to disasters and being seen in public is part of that job. Hiding away because "security concerns" (which didn't seem to concern the Queen, an old lady of 91) is not.

You are just making paper-thin excuses for her, but I suspect you already know that, don't you?

May cares about very little, except her party (she is the ultimate party hack) and her ambition. Once she achieved the top spot, we all found out that she was made of absolutely nothing, and that she has no balls (and not just because she's a woman).

Modelling ill-cut but very expensive leather trousers is more her thing. Running the country should be left to those who are  more competent. If you're a Tory I suggest you ditch her before your party loses all credibility.

We obviously have different priorities, you care about the cut of her trousers and photo opportunities , I care that she's actually doing stuff like setting up the public enquiry and allocating immediate financial aid.

I'm not a member of any political party but what I see is a mainstream moderate centre-right politician who's clearly made a big  electoral miscalculation, but nonetheless is getting on with the job with a sense of public service and commitment sadly lacking in her (chillaxing) predecessors and adversaries.  

Despite the best efforts of agitators on the left, I can't see how she can be held  responsible for this fire, while she has acted quickly to provide  aid and uncover the truth.

Sorry if that's an unfashionable departure  from the bullying paradigm, but I say what I see, not what a Momentum twitter feed tells me to.

Kevin-W posted:

Norton posted

Maybe she cares more about running the country , setting up a public enquiry and allocating £5 million in immediate aid, rather than posing  for Momentum social media photo opportunities?

I live in London too, but I wonder who's actually stoking the anger?

Is this a serious post? Nobody's stoking the anger, and you know it. There might be a few SWP banners being waved about, but those entryist wankers try and exploit every issue that pops up. Nobody takes them seriously. The anger is real and spontaneous, from people who've lost homes and loved ones, who've been abandoned by their local authority (if not the local community).

It is part of a PM's job to be be seen to lead as 'well as running the country' (which she hasn't done particularly well over the past few months in any case). Responding quickly to disasters and being seen in public is part of that job. Hiding away because "security concerns" (which didn't seem to concern the Queen, an old lady of 91) is not.

You are just making paper-thin excuses for her, but I suspect you already know that, don't you?

May cares about very little, except her party (she is the ultimate party hack) and her ambition. Once she achieved the top spot, we all found out that she was made of absolutely nothing, and that she has no balls (and not just because she's a woman).

Modelling ill-cut but very expensive leather trousers is more her thing. Running the country should be left to those who are  more competent. If you're a Tory I suggest you ditch her before your party loses all credibility.

Nice friendly response. 

Drewy posted:

Nice friendly response. 

Just seen the Newsnight i/v with May. The woman is an absolute joke. She is totally unfit for office. If the Tory party has an ounce of sense it will ditch this toxic bitch by  Monday.

Well TM wouldn't have been my choice as PM, I think she thought a poor campaign and she can appear aloof.  

But, her job requires her to chair the Cabinet, Cobra, receive almost 24/7 security briefings etc.  In so doing she doesn't go around the Country sitting on train carriage floors looking for the next photo opportunity and acting like some failed old never was rock star.  And when visiting the scene and talking to those involved she might just have been gaining some real insight.  

And for those who believe Mr C is suddenly genuine prime ministerial material I would remind that for much of his tenure as leader he has been unable to keep a shadow cabinet together.   

Timmo1341 posted:

Just seen the Newsnight i/v with May. The woman is an absolute joke. She is totally unfit for office. If the Tory party has an ounce of sense it will ditch this toxic bitch by  Monday.

Why is she a bitch? Believe it or not I'm not her biggest fan but I think calling her a bitch is a bit off. 

My mother in law is a bitch. Long story.....

I know we are all free to express our opinions, but the ability to do so in a dignified and respectful way is surely not to difficult........ Come on guys 'Man up'....

Timmo1341 posted:

Just seen the Newsnight i/v with May. The woman is an absolute joke. She is totally unfit for office. If the Tory party has an ounce of sense it will ditch this toxic bitch by  Monday.

Well if that's your chosen rhetoric I trust you never achieve high office.  

wenger2015 posted:

I know we are all free to express our opinions, but the ability to do so in a dignified and respectful way is surely not to difficult........ Come on guys 'Man up'....

Wenger, if you have just sat through the shameful facade of her interview and are not moved to anger and indignation then I feel sorry for you. 'Bitch' is a mildly pejorative term. If it offends you then I think you need to get out a bit more!

Timmo1341 posted:

wenger2015 posted:

I know we are all free to express our opinions, but the ability to do so in a dignified and respectful way is surely not to difficult........ Come on guys 'Man up'....

Wenger, if you have just sat through the shameful facade of her interview and are not moved to anger and indignation then I feel sorry for you. 'Bitch' is a mildly pejorative term. If it offends you then I think you need to get out a bit more!

You are free to use whatever language you so desire, but if it's deemed offensive by the moderator,  then this thread will be removed.....which would be a shame as I enjoy the diverse views,  and the lighthearted banter.

As for Mrs May,  I respectfully disagree with your view, and my view would be the same, regardless if I was inside the house or outside as you suggest ..

I've just watched the Newsnight interview too.  I thought Emily Maitlis was overly aggressive in pressing TM to agree to assertions that are premature at this stage (and I can forgive the lovely Emily a lot). That said, I still felt TM's response was woefully inadequate. Her words of sympathy lack emotional authenticity. Perhaps that's just her and she has no other 'mode'. But much more seriously, she seemed to stick rigidly to a prepared brief, refusing to answer the questions put to her. This left her looking evasive.  For example, TM was asked to agree that no-one seemed to be in charge in the situation. That view seemed to be shared by increasing numbers of those affected and Maitlis said she had got that impression when she visited the scene herself.  Rather than just ignore the question, which is what she did, surely TM would have done much, much better to say something like: 'Yes, this awful situation looks to have overwhelmed the local authority so I've acted and central government has stepping in to sort things out e.g. we will immediately get money to those affected.'

Goodness knows who is briefing her. Or maybe, like when the Conservative election campaign started to go off the rails, she's simply unable to see it and adapt.

This thread appears to have more Tory apologists present than the Bullingdon Club's annual Christmas bash.

Norton posted:

We obviously have different priorities, you care about the cut of her trousers and photo opportunities , I care that she's actually doing stuff like setting up the public enquiry and allocating immediate financial aid.

I'm not a member of any political party but what I see is a mainstream moderate centre-right politician who's clearly made a big  electoral miscalculation, but nonetheless is getting on with the job with a sense of public service and commitment sadly lacking in her (chillaxing) predecessors and adversaries.  

Despite the best efforts of agitators on the left, I can't see how she can be held  responsible for this fire, while she has acted quickly to provide  aid and uncover the truth.

Sorry if that's an unfashionable departure  from the bullying paradigm, but I say what I see, not what a Momentum twitter feed tells me to.

This is desperate stuff,  Norton. If you're only 'saying what you see', you're obviously either as blind as a bat, or not looking very hard.

Your attempts to completely misrepresent what I actually said are so transparent and so weedy as to be more deserving of pity than contempt; even if they are mildly insulting.

Your effort to paint yourself as some sort of 'unfashionable' resistance to the tyrrany of Twitter is similarly unconvincing;; finally trying to deflect blame onto "the left", "Momentum", Twitter and seeking photo opps is just comical - tragic, in fact.

May was of course not responsible personally for that fire. But she blundered, and blundered catatrophically (not for the first time).

Once again, she misjudged the public mood - which in this case was for those at the top to show some leadership, or at least demonstrate that they were aware what was going on and that they cared about it - and hid away.

Whether or not she was beavering away 'running the country' as you like to put it, is neither here nor there, what she has done is to create a vacuum at a time of crisis, which is unforgiveable.

Why do you continue to make excuses for this toweringly incompetent PM? Theresa May's legacy at the end of this sorry affair (I don't mean the fire or the election, I mean her Premiership) won't be Strong, and it won't be Stable (unless that particular door was shut after the horse had bolted).

Timmo1341 posted:

This thread appears to have more Tory apologists present than the Bullingdon Club's annual Christmas bash.

Oh dear the Left aren't having the debate to themselves.   

The Strat (Fender) posted:

Timmo1341 posted:

This thread appears to have more Tory apologists present than the Bullingdon Club's annual Christmas bash.

Oh dear the Left aren't having the debate to themselves.   

I'd be happy to, if only you were capable.

Kevin-W posted:

Norton posted:

We obviously have different priorities, you care about the cut of her trousers and photo opportunities , I care that she's actually doing stuff like setting up the public enquiry and allocating immediate financial aid.

I'm not a member of any political party but what I see is a mainstream moderate centre-right politician who's clearly made a big  electoral miscalculation, but nonetheless is getting on with the job with a sense of public service and commitment sadly lacking in her (chillaxing) predecessors and adversaries.  

Despite the best efforts of agitators on the left, I can't see how she can be held  responsible for this fire, while she has acted quickly to provide  aid and uncover the truth.

Sorry if that's an unfashionable departure  from the bullying paradigm, but I say what I see, not what a Momentum twitter feed tells me to.

This is desperate stuff,  Norton. If you're only 'saying what you see', you're obviously either as blind as a bat, or not looking very hard.

Your attempts to completely misrepresent what I actually said are so transparent and so weedy as to be more deserving of pity than contempt; even if they are mildly insulting.

Your effort to paint yourself as some sort of 'unfashionable' resistance to the tyrrany of Twitter is similarly unconvincing;; finally trying to deflect blame onto "the left", "Momentum", Twitter and seeking photo opps is just comical - tragic, in fact.

May was of course not responsible personally for that fire. But she blundered, and blundered catatrophically (not for the first time).

Once again, she misjudged the public mood - which in this case was for those at the top to show some leadership, or at least demonstrate that they were aware what was going on and that they cared about it - and hid away.

Whether or not she was beavering away 'running the country' as you like to put it, is neither here nor there, what she has done is to create a vacuum at a time of crisis, which is unforgiveable.

Why do you continue to make excuses for this toweringly incompetent PM? Theresa May's legacy at the end of this sorry affair (I don't mean the fire or the election, I mean her Premiership) won't be Strong, and it won't be Stable (unless that particular door was shut after the horse had bolted).

I'll avoid responding in kind to your ad hominem attacks, but the facts are that TM has visited the site on multiple occasions to meet both emergency services (given her responsibility as PM to get the professionals' assessment of the situation before acting) and residents. She has ordered a public enquiry, she has allocated  £5 million in immediate aid.   That seems an appropriate response from a PM

As for the protestors,  I strongly suspect that many, perhaps even the majority, are neither Grenfell Tower residents nor have any direct personal connection to the incident, as evidenced by the professionally produced  banners, SWP logos and  presence of known members of the Momentum renta-crowd.

I suspect that we may be about to witness a significant breakdown in civil society in London over the next fortnight, as the left both exploits and creates events in an attempt to undermine democracy in a way we have not seen before in this country.  As a Londoner, I remember the last set of riots and am genuinely more than a little apprehensive.

If as many of you like to point out Jeremy Corbyn is a bumbling old lefty or a vicious Trotskyite who is not capable of running a bath let a lone his own party let a lone a government then that doesn't really say very much for Theresa May or the present Tory Government does it.  I think that when people look at Jeremy Corbyn they see someone who perhaps they do not totally agree with but who is prepared to stand by what they believe and who would rather say I don't know than bullshit and when they look at Theresa May they see someone who would rather lie than say I dont Know and who changes from staunch remain to hard Brexit to achieve her own ambitions.  

I think many thousands of people faced with the reality of a  Hard Brexit by a Tory majority government now regret voting to leave the EU and have in the last election voted accordingly.  

I have a little sympathy here for TM, but only some. Her job is not  to provide instant answers-that is for a Public Enquiry to do its work in due course. It is for the Police and other services to carefully search the tower for the bodies, and perform due process without endangering their own lives. That cannot be done instantly. Everyone wants speedy action but that is not possible. It needs to be done right, and the evidence collated properly as well as due dignity given to grieving families.

It is about perceptions though. She fails to appear warm, caring or even sympathetic. I don't believe she was not shocked but she just did not appear to be, and now she appears scared and has retired behind the pompous, evasive, cold and arrogant shell that so turned off voters.

The whole story also feeds into the class divisions that exist in that Borough. One of the richest boroughs in Europe suffers this terrible tragedy affecting what appears to be a some the poorer residents and the narrative of 'us and them' money and obfuscation is very, very persuasive. Not to say that we don't have inequalities but the Labour election motto and the hard left' class war' narrative are potentially dangerous here. However at least Corbyn turned up, walked the streets and wrapped his arms around people in distress. I could do with him being careful with the politics of this from now on though or social unrest may indeed follow.

He has some responsibilities to respect the due and correct process here and not whip up inappropriate expectations.

Bruce

Jeremy Corbyn certainly hasn't stood by what he thought about the EU.   

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

I have a little sympathy here for TM, but only some. Her job is not  to provide instant answers-that is for a Public Enquiry to do its work in due course. It is for the Police and other services to carefully search the tower for the bodies, and perform due process without endangering their own lives. That cannot be done instantly. Everyone wants speedy action but that is not possible. It needs to be done right, and the evidence collated properly as well as due dignity given to grieving families.

It is about perceptions though. She fails to appear warm, caring or even sympathetic. I don't believe she was not shocked but she just did not appear to be....

.......

A crime in our post Diana field of flowers at Kensington Palace society. We have to emote, and we have to be seen to emote. Private thoughts of empathy or saddness are not enough.

Kevin-W posted:

Norton posted:

We obviously have different priorities, you care about the cut of her trousers and photo opportunities , I care that she's actually doing stuff like setting up the public enquiry and allocating immediate financial aid.

I'm not a member of any political party but what I see is a mainstream moderate centre-right politician who's clearly made a big  electoral miscalculation, but nonetheless is getting on with the job with a sense of public service and commitment sadly lacking in her (chillaxing) predecessors and adversaries.  

Despite the best efforts of agitators on the left, I can't see how she can be held  responsible for this fire, while she has acted quickly to provide  aid and uncover the truth.

Sorry if that's an unfashionable departure  from the bullying paradigm, but I say what I see, not what a Momentum twitter feed tells me to.

This is desperate stuff,  Norton. If you're only 'saying what you see', you're obviously either as blind as a bat, or not looking very hard.

Your attempts to completely misrepresent what I actually said are so transparent and so weedy as to be more deserving of pity than contempt; even if they are mildly insulting.

Your effort to paint yourself as some sort of 'unfashionable' resistance to the tyrrany of Twitter is similarly unconvincing;; finally trying to deflect blame onto "the left", "Momentum", Twitter and seeking photo opps is just comical - tragic, in fact.

May was of course not responsible personally for that fire. But she blundered, and blundered catatrophically (not for the first time).

Once again, she misjudged the public mood - which in this case was for those at the top to show some leadership, or at least demonstrate that they were aware what was going on and that they cared about it - and hid away.

Whether or not she was beavering away 'running the country' as you like to put it, is neither here nor there, what she has done is to create a vacuum at a time of crisis, which is unforgiveable.

Why do you continue to make excuses for this toweringly incompetent PM? Theresa May's legacy at the end of this sorry affair (I don't mean the fire or the election, I mean her Premiership) won't be Strong, and it won't be Stable (unless that particular door was shut after the horse had bolted).

You read too much social media and take in too much of what the news channels are putting out. 

JC Set to take to the stage at the Glastonbury festival next week.

The Greenpeace stage always used to have someone political shoe horned in with Billy Bragg.

Bruce Woodhouse posted:

I have a little sympathy here for TM, but only some. Her job is not  to provide instant answers-that is for a Public Enquiry to do its work in due course. It is for the Police and other services to carefully search the tower for the bodies, and perform due process without endangering their own lives. That cannot be done instantly. Everyone wants speedy action but that is not possible. It needs to be done right, and the evidence collated properly as well as due dignity given to grieving families.

It is about perceptions though. She fails to appear warm, caring or even sympathetic. I don't believe she was not shocked but she just did not appear to be, and now she appears scared and has retired behind the pompous, evasive, cold and arrogant shell that so turned off voters.

The whole story also feeds into the class divisions that exist in that Borough. One of the richest boroughs in Europe suffers this terrible tragedy affecting what appears to be a some the poorer residents and the narrative of 'us and them' money and obfuscation is very, very persuasive. Not to say that we don't have inequalities but the Labour election motto and the hard left' class war' narrative are potentially dangerous here. However at least Corbyn turned up, walked the streets and wrapped his arms around people in distress. I could do with him being careful with the politics of this from now on though or social unrest may indeed follow.

He has some responsibilities to respect the due and correct process here and not whip up inappropriate expectations.

Bruce

I agree, Bruce.  Corbyn seemed to be able to relate to the people he met, giving some a hug, whereas TM appeared to remain detached and aloof.  There do seem to be worrying signs of growing social unrest.  As you say, I hope Labour avoid any temptation to add to that by making political capital of the disaster, and I also hope that Corbyn uses his influence with the local population to ensure that protests remain peaceful.