Labour ?

I suppose it depends upon what you think is 'effective opposition'. If it's scoring effective blows on the government and its ministers in parliamentary debate and PM's questions, I think it is it generally regarded as below par.

I don't dispute that under Corbyn the membership of the Labour party has grown, and that's a positive thing. But what really matters is the LP's prospects for obtaining power i.e. being elected to form a government.  I think I saw in my newspaper that the latest opinion polls show the Labour party as 17 percentage points behind the Tories.  Some ground to make up there, I think.  

MDS posted:

I suppose it depends upon what you think is 'effective opposition'. If it's scoring effective blows on the government and its ministers in parliamentary debate and PM's questions, I think it is it generally regarded as below par.

I don't dispute that under Corbyn the membership of the Labour party has grown, and that's a positive thing. But what really matters is the LP's prospects for obtaining power i.e. being elected to form a government.  I think I saw in my newspaper that the latest opinion polls show the Labour party as 17 percentage points behind the Tories.  Some ground to make up there, I think.  

Which Newspaper did you read that In?
I often hear people say that the LP is unelectable or rather that is what some papers choose to print, which is nonsense as anyone is "electable" if they stand for election.

Richard 2000 posted:

MDS posted:

I suppose it depends upon what you think is 'effective opposition'. If it's scoring effective blows on the government and its ministers in parliamentary debate and PM's questions, I think it is it generally regarded as below par.

I don't dispute that under Corbyn the membership of the Labour party has grown, and that's a positive thing. But what really matters is the LP's prospects for obtaining power i.e. being elected to form a government.  I think I saw in my newspaper that the latest opinion polls show the Labour party as 17 percentage points behind the Tories.  Some ground to make up there, I think.  

Which Newspaper did you read that In?
I often hear people say that the LP is unelectable or rather that is what some papers choose to print, which is nonsense as anyone is "electable" if they stand for election.

I think was The Indpendent's i paper.

MDS posted:

Richard 2000 posted:

MDS posted:

I suppose it depends upon what you think is 'effective opposition'. If it's scoring effective blows on the government and its ministers in parliamentary debate and PM's questions, I think it is it generally regarded as below par.

I don't dispute that under Corbyn the membership of the Labour party has grown, and that's a positive thing. But what really matters is the LP's prospects for obtaining power i.e. being elected to form a government.  I think I saw in my newspaper that the latest opinion polls show the Labour party as 17 percentage points behind the Tories.  Some ground to make up there, I think.  

Which Newspaper did you read that In?
I often hear people say that the LP is unelectable or rather that is what some papers choose to print, which is nonsense as anyone is "electable" if they stand for election.

I think was The Indpendent's i paper.

Unelectable is another way of saying, they have no prospect of wining any election ...??

MDS posted:

Richard 2000 posted:

 

 

Which Newspaper did you read that In?
I often hear people say that the LP is unelectable or rather that is what some papers choose to print, which is nonsense as anyone is "electable" if they stand for election.

I think was The Indpendent's i paper.

The i is no longer part of the Independent.  

I think Richard is in denial. The Labour Party, in its current state would not stand a chance in hell of winning a general election.

The size of the LP Membership is irellevent. The only thing that matters is how many voters will vote Labour in each constituency.

Unless Corbin pulls his finger out, I don't see anything changing soon. And I don't see Corbin changing his laid-back, almost-disinterested manor, anytime soon.

Don Atkinson posted:

Unless Corbin pulls his finger out, I don't see anything changing soon. And I don't see Corbin changing his laid-back, almost-disinterested manor, anytime soon.

Don, you can't put it all on Corbyn... he can't lead, when the rest refuse to follow.  Immediately following the referendum, what did the PLP do: concentrate on the Conservatives and the mess they had made; no they were more interested in stabbing Corbyn in the back...

I'm not saying he's a good leader or that Labour have nothing to worry about, but anyone who suggests just replacing Corbyn will solve the problems has their head in the sand.

'Jeremy' has not said anything yet that makes me think he actually wants to be our next PM.

C.

Eloise, I agree there is more to labour's problems than just Corbyn. But likewise, if labour MPs simply started following Corbyn, their prospects of winning an election would remain less than slight.

Don Atkinson posted:

Eloise, I agree there is more to labour's problems than just Corbyn. But likewise, if labour MPs simply started following Corbyn, their prospects of winning an election would remain less than slight.

Do you disagree (generally) with his policies or with his personality Don?

Eloise posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Eloise, I agree there is more to labour's problems than just Corbyn. But likewise, if labour MPs simply started following Corbyn, their prospects of winning an election would remain less than slight.

Do you disagree (generally) with his policies or with his personality Don?

Both.

The point I think many people are missing is that we need a shift away from the current view perpetuated by our media (who just want to print controversial stories to sell papers) that politics is something that only takes place in Westminster.
JC is trying to create a grass roots movement of political activity at community level and I believe are largely succeeding with more and more people who had previously been apathetic now taking an interest and becoming involved particularly amongst younger people. My own local CLP used to be a boring undemocratic meeting place for a handful of right wing leaning autocrats, since JC became leader the CLP like many others has swelled in active and diverse membership and is now a vibrant place for political discourse and community activity.
We need to see ordinary people taking control of the political agenda and meaningful political change will always in  my view be driven from the bottom up. This is what the PLP autocrats who think that they own the LP fear, because it is they with their snouts in the troughs who stand to lose most and will cling to their self interests through all manner of skullduggery and with their allies in the media who love a good political soap opera would rather destroy the LP prospects of gaining "power" in Westminster in order to serve their own interests.
Yes, there is a battle going on within the LP which need not be happening when it should be focusing on challenging the current government. Yes that battle may take time but I believe with the LP membership determining the direction of the LP which is as it should be in a "democratic" organisation, that ultimately the battle will and must be won otherwise we will continue to have a political system without dynamic and political parties whose only differences are in name. Whatever your political views, this will only serve to further fuel disenchantment and apathy amongst the population leaving those crooked self interested Westminster politicians to their own ends.
I would much prefer a diverse political system containing "unelectable" political parties made up of activists challenging the status quo, rather than the current bland you can vote for any any colour you like as long as we all have the same "electable" policies multi party choice but no choice system. 

Don Atkinson posted:

Eloise posted:

Don Atkinson posted:

Eloise, I agree there is more to labour's problems than just Corbyn. But likewise, if labour MPs simply started following Corbyn, their prospects of winning an election would remain less than slight.

Do you disagree (generally) with his policies or with his personality Don?

Both.

A bit like Owen Smith who said he supported the policies of JC but asked to be elected because he "isn't Jeremy Corbyn"

wenger2015 posted:

Bruce, Unfortunately I think your analysis is spot on.

The question is I suppose,  is their a suitable candidate to displace Corbyn and unite the party?

I don't think their is  at the moment.

......... the only person I think that would be up to the task is David Milliband , maybe he needs to be persuaded to come back and become the Labour saviour ....im sure he would relish the opportunity ? 

As for the LD, it seems very sad they have been treated like traitors after jumping in bed with the Torys, I believe they did a really good job despite the obvious restrictions they were under.

Maybe a staunch  labour supporter needs to be vocal and tell us what we are missing? 

The Labour Party IS united amongst its fast growing membership and with LP now the third largest political party in Europe that could not happen if the LP was not unified by its vast majority. The problem is the constant coup attempts by the minority which is the tired old Blairite PLP acting against the democratic will of its growing membership. JC has had to be distracted by two failed and pointless leadership challenges in his short tenure. The PLP for better or worse need to accept that the LP is supposed to be democratic and exercise some collective responsibility.

Fast falling membership more like...

Sounds like a typical LP delusion, biggest membership is for nothing when its made up of loony left & worse.   As the LP is now they are unelectable & that is not good for democracy & the country  ....  & I'm a dyed in the wool tory.    Sooner of later sense might prevail,  but if the warning about Mcklusky's involvement has any truth I fear they have a deeper swamp to get into first.

I'm sorry but Labour might have a large membership but so have many organisations.   The fact is is that it's a protest movement but the behaviour at the top of the organisation tells that they are light years from being able to form a coherent government.    The country desperately needs an effective opposition to hold the Government to account.

Regards,

Lindsay

Latest telegraph poll puts labour down again to 25%....

Can it get any worse? 

I have just been watching the News, I can't understand why Ken Livingstone has not been expelled from the Labour Party?

I would suggest the Labour hierarchy have bottled it once again .

What's the point of a 12 month suspension? 

Surely this was the moment to show a position of strength?

These controversial  anti-semitic comments should not be tolerated....

I'm not sure why what he said is so controversial.  Hitler did support the possibility of a Jewish homeland in the early days of his regime.    Or am I missing something,  rather than what he specifically said on that matter is this him being perceived as having said/done other things that show him to be generally anti-semitic.      I'm asking simply because I want to know,  I'm not being controversial. 

The problem is as a politcian, he should know better, it's a view that stirs up racial hatred, it all seems very innocent but the undertones are not good....

Mike-B posted:

I'm not sure why what he said is so controversial.  Hitler did support the possibility of a Jewish homeland in the early days of his regime.    Or am I missing something,  rather than what he specifically said on that matter is this him being perceived as having said/done other things that show him to be generally anti-semitic.      I'm asking simply because I want to know,  I'm not being controversial. 

wenger2015 posted:

The problem is as a politcian, he should know better, it's a view that stirs up racial hatred, it all seems very innocent but the undertones are not good....

As I recall ... the whole issues stemmed from Ken Livingstone standing up in support of a Muslim labour candidate (now MP?) who made a satirical tweet about Israeli policy and America's unquestioning support of Israeli policy.  Now what he said in offering that support was (I believe) factually, if narrowly, correct; but was unwise in terms of the way it could be viewed considering how sensitive the subject is.  It could also be argued that the issue has been blown out of proportion by the publicity and the desire of some to harm Corbyn by proxy.

He was being investigated (and was found "guilty" of) bringing the party into disrepute - he's not been actually found guilty of being anti-semitic* (afaik).  I suspect the issue is more his dogmatic repeating the comments, inability to acknowledge that they could cause offence and refusal to apologise which is the issue, more than the original comment.

I cant say I always agree with Tom Watson - but I do admire his conviction and passion... I think the Labour Party could benefit with him at the top - and I think he would bring some badly needed discipline and focus...

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I cant say I always agree with Tom Watson - but I do admire his conviction and passion... I think the Labour Party could benefit with him at the top - and I think he would bring some badly needed discipline and focus...

Yes, discipline and focus.....the fundamentals of good leadership......... Probably and essential if he was going to be considered.... no demons in the cupboard 

It strongly seems to me that the whole issue and coverage of it has been buried under a mountain of unhelpful hysteria and agendas. For example, many comments I've seen/heard have falsely conflated Zionism and Judaism for dramatic effect.  Plus as Eloise observes, the guilty verdict equivocates between racism (not present in what Livingstone said) and disrepute (abundantly present), but is often being taken to unequivocally mean that he's 'got away' with overt racism.  It also seems conspicuous to me that those making the most noise from non-religious quarters seem to be Blairites or others with an anti-Corbyn agendas - the Telegraph story about Tom Watson's comments took about a sentence and a half before it descended into Corbyn bashing.

I don't think Tom Watson has been exactly helpful here.  I think he's been cynical and opportunist, and has fanned the flames more than tried to sort it all out.