Adding DAC to Naim NDX

Adam Zielinski posted:

daveyu posted:

Doesn't an external power supply only benefit the dac and if I add a Naim dac then to get the best out of this requires a ps to be added to that, not a route i wish to take

Absolutely not - it doesn't. See my post above. I wrote that if `i cpuld on;y add add one box to my NDX it would an nDAC not a power supply to the NDX.

I think part of the question was, does nDAC require an external PS to get the best out of it - if the answer is absolutely not, then one wonders why people do - but I suspect the question or answer got confused somewhere?

Innocent Bystander posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

daveyu posted:

Doesn't an external power supply only benefit the dac and if I add a Naim dac then to get the best out of this requires a ps to be added to that, not a route i wish to take

Absolutely not - it doesn't. See my post above. I wrote that if `i cpuld on;y add add one box to my NDX it would an nDAC not a power supply to the NDX.

I think part of the question was, does nDAC require an external PS to get the best out of it - if the answer is absolutely not, then one wonders why people do add one - but I suspect the question or answer got confused somewhere?

I kept my nDAC after moving to NDS. I had it on the smaller system in the study. I now have it updated to v.4.11.8 and playing bare on USB keys next to NDS/555DR for comparison purposes. It is amazingly good and AAMF, not very very far from NDS/555DR even if it lacks chest and drive of an external PSU. 

Chag -

daveyu posted:

Doesn't an external power supply only benefit the dac and if I add a Naim dac then to get the best out of this requires a ps to be added to that, not a route i wish to take

I do not think that a Naim DAC requires a PSU although it might profit from one, of course. No matter what I think: have you the possibility of visiting a Naim dealer? There you can test NDS and Naim DAC (with and without PSU) in a controlled environment and make up your mind. You might for instance find out that a SL Cable between the Naim DAC and your preamp brings more improvements than a PSU on the DAC or the other way round or that you prefer the NDS to the DAC etc. I think that, at the level of NDS, Naim DAC, Hugo, etc. (with and without PSUs) you'll have to let your ears decide or exclude some possibilities on the basis of grounds that matter to you. As I mentiones above, I would not, for instance, implement a streamer based solution even if it would sound marginally better than a DAC based solution. But that's me. Just put forward the criteria that matter to you and go ahead. For instance, you seem to strive for a minimal number of boxes (this is a very good guideline!) and perhaps for an all-Naim solution. In this case, try NDX + Naim DAC. You do not like a system with redundant components (also a very good guideline)? Then try replacing your NDX with a NDS. You'll need a PSU for it but you can get rid of the NDX. And if you do not like the idea of buying a device that requires an external PSU, try a non-Naim streamer or DAC.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

daveyu posted:

Doesn't an external power supply only benefit the dac and if I add a Naim dac then to get the best out of this requires a ps to be added to that, not a route i wish to take

Absolutely not - it doesn't. See my post above. I wrote that if I could only add add one box to my NDX it would an nDAC not a power supply to the NDX.

I think part of the question was, does nDAC require an external PS to get the best out of it - if the answer is absolutely not, then one wonders why people do - but I suspect the question or answer got confused somewhere?

I did understand the question, but since it was a leading question, with a negative presumption, I chose to ignore it.
A less leading question would be:

'If I have an NDX + nDAC, do I need to add an external PSU?'

In case of OP, since he only has space for one box - the answer is no. It's not necessary.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

daveyu posted:

Doesn't an external power supply only benefit the dac and if I add a Naim dac then to get the best out of this requires a ps to be added to that, not a route i wish to take

Absolutely not - it doesn't. See my post above. I wrote that if `i cpuld on;y add add one box to my NDX it would an nDAC not a power supply to the NDX.

I think part of the question was, does nDAC require an external PS to get the best out of it - if the answer is absolutely not, then one wonders why people do add one - but I suspect the question or answer got confused somewhere?

Of course the Naim DAC can benefit from a PSU. But it is certainly not the case that everyone who has a Naim DAC has a PSU on it. Before the Dec. 2015 firmware upgrade the consensus (if one can say so) seemed to be that a non-DR 555 brings perceivable improvements to the Naim DAC. After Dec. 2015 things are perhaps a bit less clear. There are also other options for improving a Naim DAC output other than adding a PSU and there are good alternatives to the Naim DAC. I would not buy a new Naim DAC now and I would  not buy a second hand Naim DAC if I thought that I need a 555 to make it sound right. But still, a second hand Naim DAC is a very good value for money and I would not hesitate buying one.  

Indeed, I would have liked to run or even read on comparison of nDAC v4.11.8 with NDS v4.4 and Hugo.

Chag -

Stefan Vogt posted:

@OP: Naim is likely to work on further refining their DAC architecture. And with the Hugo2 around the corner, I'd not commit at the very moment (though personally I'll stick to my HugoTT, for which the Core is a nice transport, though admittedly without iRadio).

I think it's unlikely Naim will change their DAC architecture anytime soon... they tend do adopt TI converters where the architecture is encapsulated in the chip converter, additionally Naim tend to have adopted programmable oversampling and low pass filtering DSP outside the converter chip using Analog Devices SHARC processors with their own Super Harvard architecture .. however I would expect to see changes from Naim in the transport and streaming architectures.. really significant changes here. Indeed the new Uniti series has a brand new streaming and transport architecture, and I suspect we will see this in possible forthcoming NDX2, NDS2 and perhaps 272-2

I'm holding out for the NDX > Hugo to trump Innuos Zenith > Hugo. However if people say that the NDX doesn't sound as good as the Melco direct to Hugo then the NDX must be a massive waste of cash as the Melco didn't sound great to me > Hugo. Felt it empty and cold/digital sounding. Lacking guts and expression.  

I've recently ebayed a Regen too. As I felt my Innuos Zenith MK11 > Hugo was superior than all. Regen muddled things and messed woth timing.  I go for a natural, together and flowing sound. I feel I've got that with detail in spooky musical spades. Although I still am not completely satisfied but I do have OCD. Confirmed.

2 weeks and I will know for myself about the NDX.

ThatsNotMyNaim posted:

I'm holding out for the NDX > Hugo to trump Innuos Zenith > Hugo. However if people say that the NDX doesn't sound as good as the Melco direct to Hugo then the NDX must be a massive waste of cash as the Melco didn't sound great to me > Hugo. Felt it empty and cold/digital sounding. Lacking guts and expression.  

I've recently ebayed a Regen too. As I felt my Innuos Zenith MK11 > Hugo was superior than all. Regen muddled things and messed woth timing.  I go for a natural, together and flowing sound. I feel I've got that with detail in spooky musical spades. Although I still am not completely satisfied but I do have OCD. Confirmed.

2 weeks and I will know for myself about the NDX.

 

 

Be interested in hearing the findings, I have a feeling Innuous ==> Hugo via USB will sound the best, I'm having doubts myself as to the worth of the NDX

I am not sure who says that.. the Hugo sounds best with SPDIF in my opinion... and the NDX SPDIF works a treat... I find the NDX -> Hugo works really welll. I prefer it to Melco USB -> TT Hugo.. your ears might vary... whichever the NDX is a top quality transport using the reclocking  and signal routing capability of the SHARC processor and precision clock to great effect. Further the NDX output is galvanically isolated and so works optimally with the Hugo.. i.e. It is often best to use only one galvanic  isolation and not two between devices.. especially where magnetically coupled.

Simon

I guess I question what the ndx adds when streaming to a ndx connected to a dac

With regard to electrical input to Hugo from sources, notably computer but potentially any player, due to RF noise, there seem to be varied opinions as to what gives the best isolation and so least effect. Different people have said different devices are more effective, with at least one person reporting  that to their ears Hugo sounds fine with no RF isolation from a computer. At least in part these differences would seem likely to be a combination of differences in the RF noise from different machines, and even differences between individual examples of the same machine. However it is also likely to be affected by how revealing or otherwise different systems may be - and, most notably, the listener's ears: IIUC, ground plane modulation by RF might be perceived by some people as some form of enhancement, seemingly sounding better to them than the pure signal.

However, all else being equal, apparently Hugo achieves best sound quality through optical input - not something I investigated, but reported by several on this forum and stated by its designer. If running with even one of the best computer renderers like Audirvana optimised with a dedicated USB bus output, the best sound quality through Hugo would therefore seem likely via an isolating converter to optical. 

These comments have been about Hugo, but are clearly applicable to any DAC that is susceptible to RF - and the big question with any DAC is whether and by how much it might be affected, even if it does have some degree of isolation built in, somthat it is possible that additional isolation may benefit some DACs. And of course all streaming/rendering devices are essentially computers, even specialised hifi devices: the amount of RF they inject in the signal to a DAC depending on their design from power supply to isolation of the output, so it is possible that additional isolation may benefit some sources.

Maybe the big questions are what is actually "right", meaning with no RF effect on sound, and which sounds best to the listener, recognising the the answer to the latter may vary from person to person...

A few points, Galvanic isolation is about breaking earth loops and g round paths. When connecting the Hugo to a Naim NAC it's important if you are using an electrical digital transportto have it galvanically isolated so as to avoid earth loops and earth current noise on your Naim. We know how sensitive to ground currents our Naim NACs are.

As far as digital sources on the Hugo, I find SPDIF the best by quite a margin.. if you use a top class digital transport like the NDX/NDS.. it's the source that best provides what I call the Mandelbrot effect... the ability to listen into the recording.. rather than simply listen to the recording... to me this is what the Hugo is all about. If you are not getting this there is probably little point in using a Hugo in a main system.

The next best is Toslink, it's good, but tends to lack detail and insight compared to high quality SPDIF.. but I use for non critical listening to good effect.

i find USB on the Hugo using various sources good and detailed, but it all tends to sound a little bland and dry and doesn't engage me on extended listening.. it doesn't have the organic mouth watering analogue feel of the high quality SPDIF fed by the NDX.

As always having a high quality transport with high transport clock regulation is essential for the renderer to work its best.. otherwise intermodulation frequencies will couple into the renderers digital input electronics and create low level artefacts that our brains need to work at filtering out.. the sound with feel less natural. Toslink, depending on fibre routing, cable and connectors and transceiver can blur the transport clock causing intermodulation errors. With SPDIF use a good quality 75 ohm cable and connector to try and keep reflections to a minimum, albeit the Hugo uses a phono digital input connector  which is an ever so slight compromise to the TT BNC input. The NDX uses a BNC output on the SPDIF which I'm sure helps.

Simon

Yes, when I had Hugo I used it from Mac Mini USB output via Gustard isolator/converter and toslink, having assumed that to be better than optical, only later learning that others say optical sounds better -I never got around to assessing for myself so can't comment further.

Interestingly, even with galvanic isolation there can be a discernible difference if a laptop source is physically completely separated from mains by running on batteries (not something I've tried/heard, but said by Rob Watts, Chord's DAC designer, and also by Analogmusic on this forum). IIRC RW relates it to RF, but I don't know if it depends on the laptop's power supply. I don't know if some have ground connected or if all are electrically isolated from ground, but with potential for RF coupling by induction, and so I don't know if it translates to other sources.

Indeed IB, its worth remembering Galvanic isolation decouples the grounds, and works by effectively disconnecting DC and very low frequency ground references between two circuits. High frequencies such as  radio frequency currents will quite happily traverse a Galvanic isolation (if they didn't nothing would get through the isolator!). These frequencies need to be filtered differently... but they will couple easily.. think of herding cats ...... so as I say prevention is always better than cure with RF interference. BTW laptops tend to be notoriously noisy and quite large radiators.. certainly not generally ideal to have on your lap if switched on

IB, I think this is perhaps where I have managed to negate the effects of an isolator into Hugo as I only really listen seriously when the laptop is running from batteries. 

Just as an aside, I did try optical when I had a Gustard U12 and found I much preferred the coax output. I personally found the optical to sound flat and lifeless, lacking sparkle.