NDS compared to Dave

Innocent Bystander posted:

 

I suspect the only way this would happen [existing owners pairing up to compare the two, in their two systems] would be for a few owners of NDS and Dave to pair up and do the comparison in each others' systems.

And given that few people having spent the kind of money these things cost would relish discovering that the other sounds significantly 'better' to their ears in their system, meaning they had gone for the 'wrong' one, I suspect there would be few takers. So in reality its more likely to be down to individuals doing auditions of both before purchasing either -but if reporting, please cite all equipment used, and the types of music used to evaluate.

you are right, there are few takers for this kind of showdown.

analogmusic posted:

well Naim sources don't sound like Chord sources. Even compared to the all the latest DAC wizardy of Chord, the CD 555 has this magical ability to make any CD sound musical and involving, not sure how Naim achieve this magic...

I have a strong hunch Naim is working on a ND555 

And if it is, I would have to ask "Is it really necessary?" The NDS sounds very good in my system, although it is (as always) dependent on the quality of the source material. I certainly could not justify £20k, being the typical price of a 552 or 500, for a subtle refinement in what is already good enough. 

Clive B posted:

analogmusic posted:

well Naim sources don't sound like Chord sources. Even compared to the all the latest DAC wizardy of Chord, the CD 555 has this magical ability to make any CD sound musical and involving, not sure how Naim achieve this magic...

I have a strong hunch Naim is working on a ND555 

And if it is, I would have to ask "Is it really necessary?" The NDS sounds very good in my system, although it is (as always) dependent on the quality of the source material. I certainly could not justify £20k, being the typical price of a 552 or 500, for a subtle refinement in what is already good enough. 

Maybe it depends whether the difference is subtle or major...  

And the same question about relevance can be applied anywhere on the ladder, whether considering Statement or 500 series or even 300, or indeed NDS vs lower cost streamers, and will be something each individual has to decide defore purchase (maybe before hearing), and each manufacturer has to gauge in terms of anticipated profitability before developing.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Clive B posted:

analogmusic posted:

well Naim sources don't sound like Chord sources. Even compared to the all the latest DAC wizardy of Chord, the CD 555 has this magical ability to make any CD sound musical and involving, not sure how Naim achieve this magic...

I have a strong hunch Naim is working on a ND555 

And if it is, I would have to ask "Is it really necessary?" The NDS sounds very good in my system, although it is (as always) dependent on the quality of the source material. I certainly could not justify £20k, being the typical price of a 552 or 500, for a subtle refinement in what is already good enough. 

Maybe it depends whether the difference is subtle or major...  

And the same question about relevance can be applied anywhere on the ladder, whether considering Statement or 500 series or even 300, or indeed NDS vs lower cost streamers, and will be something each individual has to decide defore purchase (maybe before hearing), and each manufacturer has to gauge in terms of anticipated profitability before developing.

I was responding to AM's speculation that Naim Audio might be working on a ND555. 

Clive B posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

Clive B posted:

analogmusic posted:

well Naim sources don't sound like Chord sources. Even compared to the all the latest DAC wizardy of Chord, the CD 555 has this magical ability to make any CD sound musical and involving, not sure how Naim achieve this magic...

I have a strong hunch Naim is working on a ND555 

And if it is, I would have to ask "Is it really necessary?" The NDS sounds very good in my system, although it is (as always) dependent on the quality of the source material. I certainly could not justify £20k, being the typical price of a 552 or 500, for a subtle refinement in what is already good enough. 

Maybe it depends whether the difference is subtle or major...  

And the same question about relevance can be applied anywhere on the ladder, whether considering Statement or 500 series or even 300, or indeed NDS vs lower cost streamers, and will be something each individual has to decide defore purchase (maybe before hearing), and each manufacturer has to gauge in terms of anticipated profitability before developing.

I was responding to AM's speculation that Naim Audio might be working on a ND555. 

I know! And my post was responding about that, putting the relevance or otherwise of improvement an ND555 might offer into the context of other improvements as you go up the hifi ladder.

Or have I misunderstood your comments about a possible ND555?

not coy at all...

I'll let Gary Shaw or Innocent Bystander post first their impressions of their own Dave, first.

My speculation of ND555 is based on what Linn did to update their KDS with new DAC architecture called Katalyst.

But I didn't compare Dave to NDS, or CD555 - only to Hugo and TT (and posted at the time).

Paul said a Statement level streamer was in development and I think we can safely assume it will appear in a tall box in due course. It will be aimed at people who will buy it because they can. And they will. Some of us mortals might get a shout too - if it sounds like it's worth the extra. I have my doubts but that's never stopped Naim from pleasantly surprising me down the years (sometimes).

Dave J posted:

analogmusic posted:

well Gary Shaw of this forum has compared DAVE to CD555 

He ended up buying the Dave...

He did indeed but he previously used a Hugo and that was better than the 555 too.

Dave is fed by an NDX, streaming locally and from Qobuz (via Synology/BubbleUpNP).

I'd previously used Hugo in the same configuration and it bettered the CD555 to the extent that I ripped all my CDs.

Unfortunately I came into some money and decided to try and hear what the fuss was about Dave. I posted at length my findings of the extended loan period, first between Dave and 555 and then Dave and Hugo (sadly deleted). 

The short of it was that Dave was better in every way than Hugo (though Hugo remains probably the best bang-per-buck bit of kit I've bought over a period of nearly 50 years and only replaced him because I had the dosh and once I'd had Dave for a couple of weeks I couldn't bear the thought of him leaving). And therefore even better than the 555 which sits unused on top of my Hutter stack.

Interconnects for the tests were Chord Sarum SA between sources and 552, digital cable Chord Signatire TA.

Note: I found the optimum mode for Dave into the 552 was as a pre-amplifier (i.e. not in DAC mode) with the volume dialled down to -12db, much in the same way Hugo sounded best dialled down to Violet. 

analogmusic posted:

Don't listen to an NDS, you will end up maxing out your credit card soon afterwards 

Maybe. I listened to an NDS/555PSDR and preferred my nDAC/555PSDR. But then I prefer a 282 to 252 so maybe my ears are unrefined 

 

Paul said a Statement level streamer was in development and I think we can safely assume it will appear in a tall box in due course.

When did Paul say that Harry?

Chag -

At his retirement do, when he was given a large and heavy box...

In a sidebar interview in one of the comics who published a Statement review. IIRC some time in 2015.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Richieroo posted:

What I like about naim is there agonising attention to detail as a result of listening carefully to the results....evaluating and implementing changes that get things so fundamentally right. There dac's  may not be the very latest...but the signal handling before and after is very good. So in comparison to Chord .... I would expect the naim system to sound natural ... but with  less absolute detail... I wonder how good DAVE preamp is....

From what I gather that agonising attention to detail and listening to results is also displayed by Chord (I don't know about others), but maybe any difference is due to either what each perceives as being right, or what is within the limis of the technology they apply - that latter of course advancing from time to to time. 

This might be so, and there are some Chord products I've heard and liked (I own one of their products) but their attention to fundamentals, never mind details, with their room set up at the Indulgence Show last year was atrocious.

Rob Watts says 'what is music?'.  Allegedly.  ....actually he didn't, but who cares

I would agree with Gary Shaw's review of Dave vs Hugo, Dave is better than Hugo in every way (but then at also considerable price increase)

in a nutshell, CD555 has (like all Naim sources) a different presentation, like a live band, front row seats, and I must say it is quite engaging. 

Hugo and Dave are more neutral, and also very engaging to my ears, as they have very engaging ways of playing music, this has been discussed many times before, in various Hugo threads. One thing for sure, Dave compared to Hugo has much superior and bigger soundstage, punchier bass, more refinement, more gentle on the ears (more analog like sound), more easier to understand and enjoy the music, superior transient timing compared to Hugo, and much superior small signal resolution.

Back to Naim vs Chord : Different companies, different sound.

That is why Simon-in-suffolk, enjoys both Hugo and CDX2 in his system.

I would also add, that CDS555 is very much a Naim source, much of the Naim amplifier technology is evident in the CD555, such as the tube like mids (according to some, I am not too familiar with tube sound), so vocals sound lovely on a CD555. CD555 also very much has the Naim PRAT, just like Naim amplifiers. it is very easy to hear the way an instrument is played on a CD555.

But ..... Like Gary Shaw, I did buy a Dave myself. It has USB input (which for me is absolutely crucial), and well I have grown very fond of the Chord sound since I owned the Hugo. 

Personal preferences and that's why it is important to audition carefully.

Hi Ano .... do you use the pre amp side of Dave ........ and does this feed straight into your power amp....?

I posted this elsewhere on the forum, but I didn't find that removing my 282 and feeding Dave into 250 DR with a suitable cable, made the 282 redundant. Far from it.

The rhythmic flow is the music wasn't as good (even if soundstage and bass improve marginally), and I found the Dave into 282 better than dave into power amp directly.

However when I did hear Dave in a demo at a dealer, it was with a 172 preamp, and the NAC N 172 was easily able to show me how good Dave was, compared to Hugo TT.

I have not heard the NDS but an hour ago i got to see and hear the Dave for the first time,at my dealers home.First of all,i think it looks really nice,he has the black one,unfortunately he did not have it hooked up to Naim gear.He was feeding it with a Simaudio cd player,and was using it as a dac into a Simaudio seperate pre and power combo,feeding focal sopra one's.The problem is though,it was also my first time hearing the Sopra one's too,so hard to make any real judgement or comparison.I will say that what i heard was very,very good,and i only listened briefly,maybe 45 minutes.Was it the Dave,or the other gear i was hearing,i am not really sure,but i did come away quite impressed.He has only had the Dave for about a month himself,so has been experimenting with cables,etc. and said better power cords on it do make a positive improvement,he also experimented with Sort cones under it,which he said did not really help anything,he does not have the dedicated base,but made his own out of wood which seemed to work quite well.The sound was very natural,analog like with a big soundstage,and lots of detail,he mentioned that he is going to try it as a pre,directly into an amp soon,i wonder if i can pry it out of his hands for a weekend.I also got a price on a 555dr,brand new,about 12,000 Canadian dollars,ouch!The Dave is 16,500 Canadian,and i can get a xpsdr for 5500 Canadian...what to do?

Easy: feed the Dave from NDS or NDX (or better: wait for the NDX2 with new platform, colour display, and GoogleCast etc.).

The single thing that concerned me about the DAVE is that it gets hand-warm, quite in contrast to my cool Hugo TT.

S.

Stefan Vogt posted:

The single thing that concerned me about the DAVE is that it gets hand-warm, quite in contrast to my cool Hugo TT.

I think that is because it is doing a lot of work!

Not overthinking it I hope,

.

feeling_zen posted:

I wouldn't let it stop me from buying a specific box but it is a shame that the aesthetic style of Chord products is more "mega flash bling wicked mate" than the reserved nature we are used to from most other hi-fi brands of a certain price range. I always feel like the TT and Dave are one very small step away from adding graphic equalizers.

You can get away with the Hugo because it is small. But it is a miniature piece of visual bling with it's glowing colour eye, no mistake.

OTOH, Chord definately go their own way with the styling and I have to respect that.

The Chord design is a real dealbreaker for me. I think the Mojo looks fine but upwards ... the more expensive the uglier. Perhaps the pictures look worse than the real devices, I do not know ... I have never seen them in real.

nbpf posted:

feeling_zen posted:

I wouldn't let it stop me from buying a specific box but it is a shame that the aesthetic style of Chord products is more "mega flash bling wicked mate" than the reserved nature we are used to from most other hi-fi brands of a certain price range. I always feel like the TT and Dave are one very small step away from adding graphic equalizers.

You can get away with the Hugo because it is small. But it is a miniature piece of visual bling with it's glowing colour eye, no mistake.

OTOH, Chord definately go their own way with the styling and I have to respect that.

The Chord design is a real dealbreaker for me. I think the Mojo looks fine but upwards ... the more expensive the uglier. Perhaps the pictures look worse than the real devices, I do not know ... I have never seen them in real.

I actually like the look of silver Dave on its stand,but I think the silver one it's ugly without the stand though less so in black (I have it without the stand in black, and mounted on a presently makeshift stand to tilt the display towarde me it is OK). I did quite like the look of Hugo (in black). I thought the TT was fairly unremarkable visually. To put this in context, I find Naim black boxes nondescript but perfectly acceptable, however I dont like the seemingly industrial appearance of racks of boxes

But the appearance of small things even if ugly is scarcely a reason for not having them if they sound best, which is a little more challenging with bigger things like speakers, that also bybtheir very nature have to be in front of you - though again, I would choose sound over appearance if the sound is significantly better.