Naim no more?

There are obviously very many alternatives out there, but this is a Naim forum, and so it is understandable that the majority of people will be keen to keep you in the Naim fold, and possibly for good reason.

I would simply suggest that you consider the likes of BMC, Burmeister, Gryphon, Vitus, MBL or Lindemann as being worthy alternatives to listen to and compare with Naim if possible. Some of these might be outside your price range, and you may well end up preferring the Naim 'sound' anyway, but then you will have the satisfaction and assurance of knowing that you have at least tried out the alternatives.  

You're also quite near to Tom Tom audio, James generally has a wide range of used Naim gear (and others) it's possible to get top quality serviced (class A or factory) items reasonable cost, with a decent PX. At least you know that long term it'll make music, some other great sounding gear can fail to deliver the same musical satisfaction. Whatever you do enjoy the journey, it's easy to let the cash burn a hole in your pocket quickly!

Another worthy brand to consider if you have any dealers locally is Moon Audio.

272 maybe? good value at 282 level with xpsdr

Michael hi,

Your current system is let down (relatively) by your amp configuration.  Now I can't agree with your assertion that Naim is focused either on the Uniti range or super expensive which I presume you mean Statement.  I think their range of products is all encompassing and the the 282 far from being long in the tooth is a superb music maker and whilst maybe optimised with a SC sounds very sweet with either a HC or even powered by a 200.  But equally the 272 and similar demonstrates that they are developing new products to meet the changing markets.

I can't comment upon the other brands you mention at least from a position of familiarity but I would really suggest a home demo of the 282/hc/250.  With the latter in the DR mode to my ears it's a superb combination and I would anticipate really open up the LP12/SBL combo you really like.

As to speakers even if they were available I'd forget the Ovatars - it's easy to join the Naim make crap speakers bandwagon which just isn't true , but the one comparative demo I had several years ago of the  S400s vs Neat vs Kudos had me putting them a distant 3rd.  But why not sort out the amplification first? I just think with better electronics you could well discover music coming from those SBLs which hitherto you just wouldn't have realised.

Good luck.

Regards,

Lindsay

Michael,

Even ageing SBLs will be more than capable of ruthlessly revealing the limits of a 112/150.

May I suggest that you listen to a 272/XPSDR & active ATC SCM40 speakers as a starting point?  It would be a worthy benchmark for any other option that you wish to consider.

Hope this helps, FT

michael17 posted:

I've been Naim customer for 30 years and am just embarking on my final upgrade.

I'm starting with nac112/nap150/hicap into SBLs. I love the musicality of the Naim sound. I've enjoyed years of good music from this system but I realise it has flaws that do grate somewhat. Stereo imaging is blurred and one dimensional. There's also a bit of hardness to the treble, which may just be the SBL crossovers failing. Despite the addition of a MicroRendu and Hugo my basic and old LP12 still sounds more fulsome and musical - there was always felt to be a certain synergy in the Naim/SBL/LP12 combination that I would not want to loose.

In the past I would have unhesitatingly just brought a 282/250 and at least started the quest for new speakers by listening to some s400s (now no more). Sticking with Naim at least gave some assurance of a definite upgrade rather than an expensive sideways move. But I get the feeling that Naim may now just be focussed on the lower cost, lifestyle lines and super expensive gear?

The 282 looks very long in the tooth, is over complicated with so many inputs, all the monitoring circuitry and of course I'd have to get a Supercap to fully realise the amp's potential. And that would be £12,000 before worrying about speakers.

So I've been looking at other options for my shortlist and similar products from Ayre, Burmester, Lavardin, Bryston, Devialet look to be worth a listen. As do ATC40As with a suitable preamp. I've always been disappointed with the Linn, Musical Fidelity or the Chord amps I've heard.

So am I embarking on a fool's errand that just leads back to Naim or are there other options I should consider? Have others trod a similar path?    How likely are Naim to come up with a simpler preamp with a 282 / 252 level of sound quality in the near future?

 

Sensible post by Hmack and I've nothing much to add here except for your thoughts on the NAC 282 in bold. Before I bought the NAC 282 I had the same thoughts and once commented on the redundant 2nd row buttons on the front panel of the unit. The design may be outdated but it is the sound quality that counts. This does not only apply to the NAC 282 but the NAC 252 and NAC 552 which are from the same era.

Plenty of alternatives out there and you may not need to go high-end to "outperform" the Naim. Who knows you might prefer Rega or Exposure over Naim.

You commented on a one-dimensional stereo imaging or presentation of your system. This may be caused by the speakers, amplifier or a bit of both. I do not have experience with the Naim SBL but if talking about amplifiers, you may need to go up to 282/250 if you want 3-dimensional - if sticking with Naim. If outside of Naim, there may be cheaper amps which can give you that.

......Have you considered Luxman Class A integrated? I highly rate my 590ax and it's replacement ax2 has been receiving 'rave' reviews.

Pure Class A gives wonderful warmth and fluidity to the music. I don't think there's any better at Class AB amplification than Naim but you might be interested to hear the difference. 

Class A amplifiers may have a wonderful warm and liquid sound, very 3 dimensional. However, they may not possess the speed and bass articulation of the mid to higher range Naim amps especially with music which has a lot of dynamic transients and fast thumping bass lines. One of the Class A amps that I have owned is the Plinius SA-100 Mk3 with full Class A operation.

I would second the point made by Sat above. Why not consider used Naim equipment? Amplifiers are always a safe bet here, since in most cases (excluding ex-demo, perhaps) they are purchased by the original owner, placed on a shelf, plugged in and never touched again. So cosmetically they should be as new. Internals can always be spruced up with a service if greater than 10 years since the last service. Darran at Class A offers a speedier service turnaround than HQ.

Your budget would then go a lot further and you would retain that LP12-Naim amp-SBL synergy. 

When the time comes to change the SBLs I would recommend having a listen to Kudos S20s. 

If you have the time, you can embark on a mammoth listening spree to try to find out what will do it for you...

 You've named some amps that I might have suggested -I've always wondered what Devialet sounds like, and I know Bryston are very neutral and transparent. But on the other hand if the 'Naim sound' is a key factor you may struggle, and that tends to suggest keeping to Naim amps. This may be the first thing to do, to compare some other amps, then you may know, and either go that root or look at what to do staying with Naim amplification.

re speakers, I am not familiar with the SBLs, but it may well be that other speakers do better soundstaging. Certainly the bigger PMCs are great at wide soundstaging (e.g. SE series, and my, now discontinues EB1s, though the others like Fact 12 aren't as wide), and I am sure other speakers do, too - however some speakers might demand more in terms of amplification than the 150.

You owe it to yourself to at least hear the 272/250DR. You might get a surprise.

G

Also have a listen to a Classe Sigma 2200i Integrated, or Sigma SSP pre with an Amp 2, which I moved to last year after having a similar amp to yours (112x 150x with flatcap 2x). 

Phew!  Thanks for this.  I will certainly give 282/250 a listen I'd not completely dismissed them and the sh option is certainly worth considering.

I have listened to the 272 but wasn't convinced.  Partly being locked into a one box streamer/dac/amp when the technology is moving so fast.  Partly reviews that left me concerned that it would not be much of an improvement in terms of the preamp section on the 112/HC I already have.

Thanks also for the other suggestions.  I will admit to having listened to Devialet & Bryston a few times at shows through some very expensive speakers and being underwhelmed.  I plan to give them a proper listen but they did not grab me the way some Naim demos have in the past.  Both were clearly high quality hifi products but were just missing that crisp, snappy musicality one gets with Naim amps.

Many preamp designers seem to take the view that simplicity is best so I do wonder about that second row of redundant buttons on the 282.  There must be a "cost" in terms of sound quality as well as the cost to the customer buying a feature that's no longer needed.

I don't there is a cost in terms of SQ with the 2nd row because you just mute them.   A search of the forum will reveal considerable debate with regard to the 272s standing as a pre but in my view with an XPS on board it is a fine performer.   But as you already have a DAC I would suggest you will probably reap more reward from a 282 particularly as you have a HC. 

I agree. Unless you want to get into streamed music, the 282/250 is the way to go. No way is the 112/150 up to SBLs.  A much cheaper alternative is an olive 82/250 or 52/supercap/250, or a pair of 135s. Either of these options avoid the need for a phono stage. 

I think you might be under-estimating the 282/250.  One of the alternative makes you say you might consider is Chord.  They make some good stuff and I enjoyed their CPA2200/SPM600 pre/power combo for some years.  I then tried that combo against a 282/HC/250. No contest.  The Naim system sounded like someone had released the handbrake.  I actually purchased a 282/SC/250 (the SC being a bargain ex-demo), and never regretted it.  I came to be a very big fan of the 282 and it took a 552DR to oust it from my system.  Like others, I really think you need to try the 282/250 before you abandon Naim.  

I can't add a lot to the comments already made, other than to add my experience.

I had a 200/202/HC and listened to both a 272 and 282 when I was considering the upgrade of my pre-amplifier.  For me there was a significant difference in sound quality in favour of the 282 over the 272 and that was enough justification for me to go with the older design.  In terms of the second row of buttons, I never expect to use them and to be honest the sound is superb with them there!

Now that I have added S400's to the equation, I feel that I'm at a place I intend staying for a good while.  Something my wallet is mighty relived about.  

"Long in the tooth", or "timeless"?  IMHO, the Naim NAC design balances function and aesthetics better than anything else I have seen, for my purposes, at any price.  I require separate monitor control, and I use every input/output.  I especially like the buttons -- I can "read" them from across the room better than any alpha-numeric display, or knob position; and I can dim them when they bug me.

Your requirements are as valid as mine, of course.  Let us know what you end up with.  It is a fun hobby, wherever you end up.

Best,

Nick

michael17 posted:

I've been Naim customer for 30 years and am just embarking on my final upgrade.

I'm starting with nac112/nap150/hicap into SBLs.   ........

Michael, with a discontinuity like that there is a huge amount we are not being told!

Chris

michael17 posted:

The 282 looks very long in the tooth, is over complicated with so many inputs, all the monitoring circuitry and of course I'd have to get a Supercap to fully realise the amp's potential. And that would be £12,000 before worrying about speakers.

 

Age of a product design doesn't tell you anything - indeed, the closer to perfection somethingbreaches the harder it can bet to improve, and should it ever reach perfection one would hope it would never change, just maybe get cheapser to produce. (this is not suggesting it is perfection, otherwise the Statement would be a bit of a pointless anachronism...) 

Putting preamps to one side, I went from 150 to 250.2 with SBLs, and the move made it clear to me that the 150 is a bit out of its depth with SBLs. It'll play music through them, of course, but it was a big leap up to the 250. Scale, authority, bass solidity, basically everything was immediately improved.

Definitely try to hear the difference for yourself in the course of auditioning.

Michael,

I think your question implies an inference that hi-fi is a technically complex field and that there is a high rate of development toward some goal of improved sound. Personally, I don't buy into that.  In your case, if SBLs suit your room, stick with them. I would be looking at some second hand kit and have it serviced. If I were you, 52, Supercap, 2 x 250 and SNAXO242 or 2-4 + Power Supply. I'm pretty confident that would improve on anything you have suggested so far. Driving the SBLs in the manner they were designed for (active) is worth the price of admission here.

I would also look at getting a stand on which the equipment can be adequately arranged for air flow and to not induce hum into the SNAXO or phone stage. If I had any budget left, then I'd push it in the turntable's direction - new cartridge, arm, proper setup etc and then get a digital source of some kind...perhaps a Chromecast and Hugo or some CD Player. The digital stuff seems more driven by access to source material than mind bending improvements in sound. Again, I tend to think that D/A conversion is a done deal these days, and so your are listening to subtleties of analogue buffer amp implementation - which are small differences compared to say the engineers finding good tapes to make a digital transfer and lining up the tape deck properly. Happy shopping.

"So I've been looking at other options for my shortlist and similar products from Ayre, Burmester, Lavardin, Bryston, Devialet look to be worth a listen. As do ATC40As with a suitable preamp. I've always been disappointed with the Linn, Musical Fidelity or the Chord amps I've heard."

First of all, that's quite a range in sound signature. But I can imagine that if you don't like Linn, I'm sure you won't get along with Devialet and Lavardin. But still.

For me, a 30 years relation don't make sense, there have been so many developments, brands, technologies etc. I buy my hifi usually for many years, but every time I buy a new setup I look into multiple brands. Which resulted in a brand change every time ;-)

Now, if I were to change a significant part of my system, Spectral would be on top of my list. Fugly as it is, the sound these boxes produced were stunning.  

From the system you have you can make quite some steps in Naim which will bring you closer to heaven. And as you love the sound signature, I wouldn't immediately give up on Naim. But if you do then make sure you first set yourself on a sound signature, before making the change. Every brand has it's own.

For brands to consider... I would exclude Devialet, they sound impressive at first but then to dissapoint in the longer run.

AVM, Audionet, Avant-garde Acoustic.....or perhaps you go in the direction of a more analogue sounds with Tube Amps etc...