Naim no more?

I would look at a used 282, used HiCap DR, and a used 250 DR.  A nice, used, 282, should be easy to find and priced much better than new.

If you want to stream, DEFINITELY listen to 272 and 250DR.

Bart posted:

I would look at a used 282, used HiCap DR, and a used 250 DR.  A nice, used, 282, should be easy to find and priced much better than new.

If you want to stream, DEFINITELY listen to 272 and 250DR.

The OP has a Hugo, so some would argue that with a decent renderer will be able to achieve excellent sound quality, though whethetbhe would consider it better than the 272 only he could decide. MicroRendu has some strong supporters on these forums, butbappears to be very susceptible to setup, so might not have been at its optimum. Given the existence of the Hugo, assuming the OP still has it, investigating something else as renderer, or optimised mR, might be better than going the 272 route, allowing better consideration of the preamp. Core, Melco etc would provide the storage as well as renderer, while obviating the vagaries of streaming files over a network.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Bart posted:

I would look at a used 282, used HiCap DR, and a used 250 DR.  A nice, used, 282, should be easy to find and priced much better than new.

If you want to stream, DEFINITELY listen to 272 and 250DR.

The OP has, or had, a Hugo, so some would argue that with a decent renderer will be able to achieve excellent sound quality, though whethetbhe would consider it better than the 272 only he could decide. MicroRendu has some strong supporters on these forums, butbappears to be very susceptible to setup, so might not have been at its optimum. Given the existence of the Hugo, assuming the OP still has it, investigating something else as renderer, or optimised mR, might be better than going the 272 route, allowing better consideration of the preamp. Core, Melco etc would provide the storage as well as renderer, while obviating the vagaries of streaming files over a network.

Thanks Innocent Bystander, that's been my approach.  I have the Hugo and microrendu running Roon from an imac and am very pleased with this setup.   The system's sound improved greatly with this frontend, but in a way this helped me confirm the short commings I mentioned with the amp / speaker.

Given that the OP has expressed dissatisfaction with flat sound staging I would definitely move away from the SBLs. Revealing they may be, blessed with an ability to construct a holographic soundstage they are not.

Although I find Naim very rewarding, if I was the OP I would be looking to change everything and therefore it makes sense to listen to alternatives. I have a feeling that the OP may be surprised how far performance has come with the current range matched with some speakers that might suit the their tastes better. And of course, there is other good stuff out there too.

As always, what the forum recommends is somewhat of a moot point. The shortlist is really going to come down to what a handful of dealers in driving distance can put together for you're desired budget. I honestly don't believe any of the problems described can be overcome by a change of just electronics or just speakers.

Thanks - I think that's really good advice.  Spending on a 282/250 set up and then relying to 25 year old speakers did seem a bit risky.  And you are of course right aout having to go with what a dealer can demonstrate.

I concur with what FZ said above.

Michael17, another valid point of consideration in your dilemma might be to assess your current "investment" in Naim. Tally-up what your Naim boxes and interconnects are worth on trade-in or the s/h market and compare that value to what other manufacturers offer in that price range. You could find more for your money from others while at the same time reducing racking concerns and eliminating the incessant upgrade chase of PSUs, etc. There's a world of valid hi-fi makers out there to demo beyond Naim, many chock-full of PRaT. You may hit upon one that strikes your fancy. If not, you'll circle back to Naim and be satisfied you've done your due diligence.

There`s no doubt 282 betters a 272. For some reason, in my case anyway, 272 have made a stop to the upgrade thinking... even if I can afford the better. Any NAC or NAP will run over your current amp, so why jump to 282/ SC level?

There are also many alternatives to your old speaker design which (as far as I have understood) need an expensive amp or to be run active to show it`s full potential. Neat, Kudos etc do music as well.

michael17 posted:

Spending on a 282/250 set up and then relying to 25 year old speakers did seem a bit risky. 

Why?

I can't think of an amplifier I'd like to hear more with good sources and my SBLs.

C.

I'd swap SBLs (passive) for ATC SCM11s any day. The SBLs were good (passive) and extremely good (active). But if you are running them passive, there are better, more competent speakers out there -- I have SCM11s and they absolutely rock *and* have midrange neutrality *and* have sweet treble *and*...

see review in hificritic that Colloms did using my pair

JoexNaim posted:

c I don't think there's any better at Class AB amplification than Naim but you might be interested to hear the difference. 

There are too many alternative to class AB amplification  and some much better in the same price range like the Karan KA i180. There would be others but do no need to list here now 

jon honeyball posted:

I'd swap SBLs (passive) for ATC SCM11s any day. The SBLs were good (passive) and extremely good (active). But if you are running them passive, there are better, more competent speakers out there -- I have SCM11s and they absolutely rock *and* have midrange neutrality *and* have sweet treble *and*...

see review in hificritic that Colloms did using my pair

I'll bear the ATC's in mind when the day of reckoning beckons for my NBLs. I rather fancy a smaller speaker, although the Kudos S20 is a fair step in that direction and I've been impressed with how they perform.

joerand posted:

There's a world of valid hi-fi makers out there to demo beyond Naim, many chock-full of PRaT. You may hit upon one that strikes your fancy. If not, you'll circle back to Naim and be satisfied you've done your due diligence.

Quite - taking off the blinkers can be a bit of an eye opener but for others the grass may not be greener on the other side. Still, it's good to take a look and evaluate the options available to you 

Michael,

there are few 'speakers out there designed to be used hard up against a wall. Do you have the space available for a different design that operates in free space? If you want 3D imaging then this is the way to go.

Personally I love the huge soundstage that my SBLs throw, but it is very much 2D. However, this is more than enough to tease out complex musical threads which, for me, is the only musical role of imaging. Your system is a long way from getting the best out of the SBLs.

Just my thoughts...

Stu

Stu

Agreed the 2D soundstage is great.  

Teasing out complext musical threads is part of what I'm after.  I was lucky enough to hear an active Naim system with big B&W speakers and the experience of sitting in front of Miles Davis while he soloed is part of what's driven my desire to upgrade.  It sounds like you have achieved this sort of level with a much better Naim amp & LP12 set up, which provides food for thought.  

My SBLs are about 12 inches from the rear wall, unfortunately they're in a loft where half the area of the ceiling is sloping above the speakers, so that's as far back as they go, but works ok.

Michael,

I think it will boil down to whether you decide to stay with Naim. If you do your Sibbles can go an aweful long way while you improve source and amps.

But if you really do fancy the holographic route then now is the time to start again before you invest more with Naim. How about having a few dems with better Naim electronics vs a visit to a 'round earth' dealer and see which you prefer? My only caveat would be that both styles can be initially impressive but may not lead to long term satisfaction. Know your destination and invest accordingly.

IMHO of course...

Stu

Haven't heard the 112 but did start with a 202/150X combo & have currently got to a 282/HiCAP DR/250DR, which is a massive jump up vs the 202/150X, so can only imagine the jump it should make for you.  I've got to the level where I no longer feel the urge to upgrade black boxes (well possibly a SC DR sometime down the line).  No need for a SCDR on the 282, it works very well on a HCDR.  The DR power supplies & amps are something special & a big jump up vs previous non DR versions.  Not in my own place but I too have heard the 272/XPS combo a number of times & I still feel the 282 & superior (also not a fan of everything in one box as digital/streaming is changing so quickly, they'll end up being outdated quicker then the "old tech" classic pre's).  I'm currently using a Metrum Acoustics DAC with a Simaudio Mind for my digital front & am quite content.

As others have said, second hand will stretch your buck much further (or picking up some of the pieces as previous demo's).  Lots of other great companies out there as well, just need to do some listening to see which "flavor" you like the best.

Just a thought but have you listened to the focal range of speakers? The new range  including  926 and supras are superb with naim amplification . 

I didn't catch your front end, but if it's CD, don't rule out the Rega Isis+Osiris combo or Vitus, or underestimate Naim.... Avoid quick demos with lots of swift A to B...

If you want 3D give Shahinians a try - they're fantastic for Jazz as well as big classical (and much more besides) although the prices have shot up with the fall in value of sterling. In the meantime you may want to try moving your SBLs further apart.