From Kudos to Harbeth ......with Naim

As I posted in MM's thread - very different sound and presentation. Frankly, I'm not mad about either, but prefer the Harbeth mid in particular. It may also depend on what kind  of music you like. Wil he audition at least be able to replicate the rest of your system?

Mike

 A bit stupid to post the question in two threads.

Thanks, classical music, early music, easy pop, rock and jazz. No Naim available, Sugden I think and some others. It will be my chance to find out what model to home audition, if I ever come there.

At the price point of the Kudos S20, I also admire (prefer?) the Kudos S10 on those very expensive Track Audio stands.  

Neat XLS make an interesting alternative, if you can find a pair and have a NAP250DR.

The other speakers that have particularly impressed are the Proac D30R, now the D30RS, I think.  On the end of a NDS/555PSDR, 552DR and NAP300, the D30R sounded very good indeed.

Happy auditioning!  FT 

At the Bristol Show the Harbeth room was not a listening room, more the sleeping room, I would personally keep well away.....

i've recently had the Super 10s (which i prefer to the S20) and the Super HL5+ at home for couple of weeks on the end of my second system which is not dissimilar to yours (NDAC/555DR/252/250DR)

I'm rubbish at HiFi reviewer-speak but if i had to characterise the differences between the two in my room i'd say that the Kudos were a little quicker, snappier and have an amazing high end (although not too bright and shouty), although I found the bass a little overwhelming as practically couldn't have them any further than 40cm from the rear wall and i'm not sure that that gave the rear port enough room to breathe.

The Harbeths were beautifully integrated, have a mid-range to die for and present a slightly less spotlit view of the music  - Harbeths are famed for long term listenability (may be judged as less immediately impressive) and as a P3ESR user i can concur that the Super HL5+ deliver equally well here. In the end i decided to stay with the P3s as i never totally settled with the bass of the S10s and decided that the Super HL5+s were just too visually dominating for the room

Given your musical tastes the Harbeths definitely deserve an audition

I have auditioned the Harbeth SHL5+ twice in the last couple of months.  I love them.  My son summed it up best by saying, "I could curl up on the couch all winter and listen to these." (We have long winters.) This last weekend, I went in for the second listen and was thrown a vexing curve-ball in the form of Graham Audio LS 5/9 monitors. They are Graham's counter to the Harbeth 30.1 monitors.  Choices, choices...

(BTW, I'm running NAP-N272, NAC250DR, Rega Planar 3/Exact, Rega Fono and Oppo BDP-83 SE.  An XPS DR will come after speakers.)  I am able to audition the speakers with the 272, 250 and XPSDR.

Thank you all, great inputs to me.

Actually, I intend to make an audition by Proac D20R also, since I travel that far. They're the only set available for audition in the range.

You really praise Harbeths here and to get rid of the nagging feeling I should listen to them, I suspect there's no way back. Another argument is, speaker audition is a battle and when first started I want to do it properly, find my speakers for some years.

By the way, in my room S20 are easy to get right, bass wise. 30cm from back wall is perfect. It's port design may be easier to handle than rear port on S10?

S

Stover posted:

 A bit stupid to post the question in two threads.

Thanks, classical music, early music, easy pop, rock and jazz. No Naim available, Sugden I think and some others. It will be my chance to find out what model to home audition, if I ever come there.

Worth bearing in mind that the Sugden will to an extent play to the Harbeth's strengths in the mid-range, but also exaggerate its weaknesses - particularly in speed and dynamics compared with Naim.

Michael_B. posted:

Stover posted:

 A bit stupid to post the question in two threads.

Thanks, classical music, early music, easy pop, rock and jazz. No Naim available, Sugden I think and some others. It will be my chance to find out what model to home audition, if I ever come there.

Worth bearing in mind that the Sugden will to an extent play to the Harbeth's strengths in the mid-range, but also exaggerate its weaknesses - particularly in speed and dynamics compared with Naim.

I will try to have that in mind, plan is to sort out which model to home audition.

wenger2015 posted:

At the Bristol Show the Harbeth room was not a listening room, more the sleeping room, I would personally keep well away.....

It's interesting that you had that experience. It may have been down to the type of music being played or the way the room was set up etc. but I had a completely different experience. I spent about 30 minutes in that room, during which time they played some great jazz. I recall Art Blakey and some material by Julie London. I found the whole sound to be very musical; quite realistic. This may be down to the mid-range which others have mentioned.

Stover, given your musical preferences, I would definitely have a listen to the Harbeth speakers. 

The key is to find a speaker that renders music as it's supposed to be. Quiet relaxing music should sound relaxing, while aggressive rock music should sound aggressive. A speaker shouldn't apply its own character to everything. 

I like all sorts of stuff - rock, classical, world, folk, jazz, ambient, chamber and it's hard to find something that makes them all sound like they should. I've never heard a Harbeth speaker and would like to one day. 

Michael_B. posted:

Stover posted:

 A bit stupid to post the question in two threads.

Thanks, classical music, early music, easy pop, rock and jazz. No Naim available, Sugden I think and some others. It will be my chance to find out what model to home audition, if I ever come there.

Worth bearing in mind that the Sugden will to an extent play to the Harbeth's strengths in the mid-range, but also exaggerate its weaknesses - particularly in speed and dynamics compared with Naim.

On drums and classical in particular, get a feel for the Harbeth bass. It doesn't have quite the attack of the Kudos, bit imo superior texture and decay.

Hungryhalibut posted:

........... I've never heard a Harbeth speaker and would like to one day. 

I have heard a few over the years & a near neighbour has a pair - don't know model but its a 3 way - on a Cyrus amp.  For me they are nice easy listening,  maybe a bit BBC'ish warm bass & they didn't seem to have much dynamics,  but for the most part they are hard to not like,  don't win prizes in the good looks dept tho'.  

Dynamics for me are really key, which perhaps is why I like my speakers, which are probably some of the most dynamic around. I play loads of Bach, which is incredibly rhythmic music. It's odd that sometimes people think speed and dynamics are less important for classical than rock music. 

Any reason why you shouldn't take your amp and source with you, to hear driven as they would be at home? And if it were me I'd also take my speakers, to give a baseline as to sound in the different room, enabling better comparison of the differences between the speakers.

Quite a job in my view to bring along my whole setup. It`s still another room. I would rather aim for SHL5+ and deposit a home audition directly. 

My current speakers Focal Aria 906 stand mounts have really changed after my furniture change. It`s like the music left the back wall and entered the room and no listening fatigue. I could live with them if I did not know better, but with the electronics level in mind, I sense there`s more to get.

When it comes to the looks, thats very subjective, I`m not concerned about that, Harbeths appeal to me.

I'm with you on dynamics Nigel,  even my like of lounge jazz does dynamics, leading edge piano, rim shots, hard edge electric bass are as nothing without realistic dynamics.     Re-reading my post I have maybe been a little kinder to my Harbeth experiences than intended;   I said they are hard not to like, true,  but I'm hard pressed to say what they do thats outstanding other than tonal accuracy & sound stage ability does mean they play a 'tune' very nicely.

If you'll be driving 1,000km to hear them, make sure you wear earplugs in the drive, otherwise your hearing will be shot by the time you get there (assuming highway speeds here).

Right 

Just to lower your worries. My family live in that area and we will celebrate my mothers 90th birthday that weekend. The drive is about 700km one direction, on that tour I can audition speakers, but I need to expand the stay for some 2-3 days. The question is if I should bother spending the time, but so far you folks have made me do the audition. It`s fully possible to use airplane and maybe I will, but due to practical reasons I often bring the car. I`m a 14days on, 28days off guy by work, so visiting friends is also possible. Got it? 

S

Stover posted:

Quite a job in my view to bring along my whole setup. It`s still another room. I would rather aim for SHL5+ and deposit a home audition directly. 

 

I'm not quite sure why its a problem, given that you're planning 700km each way drive - I did it with my amp and a pair of 105x50x44cm 60kg speakers on a similar distance trip - and the dealers were even happy to carry in and upstairs in one location! And I have a hunch your speakers will be an incy bit easier to manhande and fit in...! Yes it is a different room, but without the baseline of your known sound, and your amp driving the speakers, the audition could be totally misleading, whereas acclimatising to the sound of your speakers in the other room will tell you how different the rooms may or may not sound, and help tell you what the differences are between the two speakers even if the rooms are quite different. 

Of course entirely your decision - I'm merely pointing out that it can be a worthwhile thing to do, and in the comtext of choosing speakers, which are so subjective in appeal, the effort might not really be that great.

either way, good luck with the trip.

I am curious about this trip. I have tried quite a few speakers on naim, and kudos s20 are in a leage of their own to my tastes. I think they have it all. 

If harbeth sounds anything like spendor they are warm but flat and dull compard to kudos. But they get a lot of positive feedback from users. Please report when you have tried them! 

Coffee and Prokofiev/ Abbado playing this morning. 

IB: Thanks, You are right about what to achieve when bringing my own setup. Since decision to do the Harbeth audition, I have decided to listen to some others available. Norway are not exactly the hi-fi Mecca and there`s not much available within the brands I look for. Harbeth range (not 7es3), Proac D20R and ATC SCM19 at another dealer and maybe PMC . Quite a job to bring my setup to both/ all three of them and stone cold Naim when firing up.

Where I live B&W, Dali, Dynaudio are available, but I`m not tempted.

Yes, I will report back. I read some great reviews on SHL5 plus, there must be something about them and I want to find out. They are mostly described as far from "sleepy".

It sounds like an exciting trip! Harbeth speakers have an interesting philosophy designing their products. They are extremely transparent monitors and their midrange is to die for. They built most of the drivers in house as well. The only drawback in my view (except from the dated looks) is that the cabinets are disigned thin enough so they can vibrate contributing to the sound. That in my ears gives a sonic signature which although almost magical in the mid and upper frequencies, sounds a little "boxy" and not so well defined on the lower ones. Of course placement is very important as with most monitor speakers. I guess it depends on the kinds of music you like of course. Overall they are great speakers and have great synergy with Naim amps.

That's my view anyway, looking forward to hear your findings! 

Stover posted:

 

IB: Thanks, You are right about what to achieve when bringing my own setup. Since decision to do the Harbeth audition, I have decided to listen to some others available. Norway are not exactly the hi-fi Mecca and there`s not much available within the brands I look for. Harbeth range (not 7es3), Proac D20R and ATC SCM19 at another dealer and maybe PMC . Quite a job to bring my setup to both/ all three of them and stone cold Naim when firing up.

 

If I might suggest, as I think you said you have family not far from dealer(s?), go there the day before and leave amp plugged in and turned on overnight before going to the dealer, so at least not stone cold.

I found Kudos Super 20  to be great in my room and wondered if anything could better them at the price? The wondering was ongoing..... and after your inputs, doing research during this weekend, based on my experience and finally got input from my wife, I have decided not to bring speaker audition any further. Ordered Kudos Super 20 last night and confirmed this morning.

Based on distance to dealers, many of them won`t give home audition, rear port designs make them stand quite far into the room, and not many models available either. I found this journey would never end so I stopped. I will enjoy music from Super 20 and maybe one day I will step into something better or different and just swap them for some 707, 606 or ...... 

S