From Kudos to Harbeth ......with Naim

Mike-B posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

........... I've never heard a Harbeth speaker and would like to one day. 

I have heard a few over the years & a near neighbour has a pair - don't know model but its a 3 way - on a Cyrus amp.  For me they are nice easy listening,  maybe a bit BBC'ish warm bass & they didn't seem to have much dynamics,  but for the most part they are hard to not like,  don't win prizes in the good looks dept tho'.  

I auditioned Harbeth speakers on two separate occasions. I felt I had to hear them since they get a lot of praise in different places. To cut a long story short, I thought they were rather dull... Actually, I have to cut this story short as I don't have much detailed re-collection of these two demos. Apparently, the Harbeth experience wasn't very memorable, and we moved on... 

They are terribly nice. Extremely nice. Just like the people behind the brand, who are *awfully* nice. 

Now if thats what you want, then they are utterly superb. However, they are without rhythm and timing - indeed, I was heard to mutter to a friend that "the bass line is stuck somewhere on the M4 travelling in this direction" at dinner that evening. Which is a hugely unfair generalising comment, but has a grain of truth in it.

I thought "nice" wasn't really a compliment... The wife enters the lounge and asks: "How does my hair look today?" Husband, listening to his Harbeth speakers, says: "Looks nice." And then the evening turned sour...

Curing the 'slow' bass of BBC type monitor speakers is simple...

1  Block the reflex ports
2  Put them in a room position that favours midrange over bass - i.e. put them where the bass output just above the port is minimised
3  Use an active sub (N.B. integrated correctly - for both time and frequency response)

Problem no longer exists.  You get that wonderful midrange and the speed and timing from the sub; best of both worlds.

And if you want to use digital room correction, that can be applied to the sub only, so it doesn't disturb the more delicate parts of the musical signal that contain the vocals, instrumental timbres and environmental information etc.

Nice can also mean precise but I don't think that is what is meant this time.

jon honeyball posted:

They are terribly nice. Extremely nice. Just like the people behind the brand, who are *awfully* nice. 

Now if thats what you want, then they are utterly superb. However, they are without rhythm and timing - indeed, I was heard to mutter to a friend that "the bass line is stuck somewhere on the M4 travelling in this direction" at dinner that evening. Which is a hugely unfair generalising comment, but has a grain of truth in it.

A hl5 with a 300 isn't so slow... �� I've had different types of bbc- monitors all of my hifi live time (first spendor, than harbeth) and i've heard many speakers and thought "wow" But after some time i noticed that is is impossible to hear music without the strenghs of this type of speakers. Early (HiFi) childhood? 

jon honeyball posted:

They are terribly nice. Extremely nice. Just like the people behind the brand, who are *awfully* nice. 

Now if thats what you want, then they are utterly superb. However, they are without rhythm and timing - indeed, I was heard to mutter to a friend that "the bass line is stuck somewhere on the M4 travelling in this direction" at dinner that evening. Which is a hugely unfair generalising comment, but has a grain of truth in it.

But people like them. That's how Harbeth keep going and by the looks of it, they seem to be doing it successfully. I'm sure your stack of Naim and DBL's sound great but like Harbeth, may not be everyone's cup of tea. 

james n posted:

jon honeyball posted:

They are terribly nice. Extremely nice. Just like the people behind the brand, who are *awfully* nice. 

Now if thats what you want, then they are utterly superb. However, they are without rhythm and timing - indeed, I was heard to mutter to a friend that "the bass line is stuck somewhere on the M4 travelling in this direction" at dinner that evening. Which is a hugely unfair generalising comment, but has a grain of truth in it.

But people like them. That's how Harbeth keep going and by the looks of it, they seem to be doing it successfully. I'm sure your stack of Naim and DBL's sound great but like Harbeth, may not be everyone's cup of tea. 

Where I am originally from, we say "other mothers have beautiful daughters too." (Is there something equivalent in English??) And where I live now, we say "beauty is in the eye of the beholder"... (Actually we have the same one in my home country, as probably in many other place.) I think these two proverbs combined make a lot of sense in the hi-fi world... 

You have chosen good speakers that are a fine match with naim. Too bad we dont get to hear your comparison to harbeth. 

Stover posted:

Coffee and Prokofiev/ Abbado playing this morning. 

IB: Thanks, You are right about what to achieve when bringing my own setup. Since decision to do the Harbeth audition, I have decided to listen to some others available. Norway are not exactly the hi-fi Mecca and there`s not much available within the brands I look for. Harbeth range (not 7es3), Proac D20R and ATC SCM19 at another dealer and maybe PMC . Quite a job to bring my setup to both/ all three of them and stone cold Naim when firing up.

Where I live B&W, Dali, Dynaudio are available, but I`m not tempted.

Yes, I will report back. I read some great reviews on SHL5 plus, there must be something about them and I want to find out. They are mostly described as far from "sleepy".

Dynaudio do some fantastic speaker that can sound fantastic with Naim I would definitely give them a listen if possible. 

Bob the Builder posted:

Dynaudio do some fantastic speaker that can sound fantastic with Naim I would definitely give them a listen if possible. 

He has ordered the Kudos Super 20s.

In response to some comments on the Harbeth being slow, there are few possibilities. Firstly, some Harbeth models may sound "slower" than the rest. For example, the M30/30.1 and older SHL5 sound slower than the Compact 7ES3 and SHL5 Plus. Secondly, the term "slow" is vague as the interpretation may not necessarily suggest that it's a slow speaker in reality. The Harbeth have BBC roots and are inherently smooth sounding speakers. The speakers are not only built but tuned differently when compared to other conventional loudspeakers. The sound of percussion instruments on the Harbeth is pulled back slightly and does not sound as prominent or upfront when compared to other loudspeakers. In comparison, the Harbeth may lack the zing and immediacy and as such, they can appear to be slow to many.

Personally I do not find the SHL5 Plus to sound slow. The transient and speed are all there. They just don't sound as extended in the frequency extremes. The hit of cymbals may not sound as sharp or the thwack of drums may sound slightly smooth. With the percussion pulled back several rows, some people have regarded the Harbeth to be slow when in reality they just sound smoother.

Amplification and system setup are other possible contributions to the perceived "slowness" of the Harbeth.

Loudspeakers, just like amplification and sources are something that's personal. There are few folks who have upgraded from the Dynaudio Confidence C2 to the Harbeth as they found the Harbeth to be superior sounding speakers.

Stover posted:

I found Kudos Super 20  to be great in my room and wondered if anything could better them at the price? The wondering was ongoing..... and after your inputs, doing research during this weekend, based on my experience and finally got input from my wife, I have decided not to bring speaker audition any further. Ordered Kudos Super 20 last night and confirmed this morning.

Based on distance to dealers, many of them won`t give home audition, rear port designs make them stand quite far into the room, and not many models available either. I found this journey would never end so I stopped. I will enjoy music from Super 20 and maybe one day I will step into something better or different and just swap them for some 707, 606 or ...... 

S

Welcome to the S20 club.  The do integrate very easily.  What finish?

Harbeth are good balanced and relaxing speakers with unfortunately little room for improvements upstream wise.

Kudos are very ,very different but I find them rather uninvolving even though they're really transparent and faithful to timbre  shifting tonally on the brighter side of neutral (not easy to tame the treble ,they're quite demanding there )  

Strat: I have ordered Tineo finish. I find it beautiful looking, same as the Titans I had.

About taming the treble. I have been reading reviews and forum comments for hours on the Harbeths this weekend and as with other speakers they get surprisingly and many comments as being harsh or shiny in the top end. This makes me think this is room and system dependent.

As mentioned in posts above, I experienced a small dislike in that area from the Super 20 as well, but with quite small changes in the furniture placement that changed in my room. That immediate respons to environmental changes, makes my confident they will be even better if I fine tune the room. In the end I played "problem tracks" as Jeff Buckley "Grace" and some others with delicate, musical joy.... loud if I wanted to 

S

james n posted:

jon honeyball posted:

They are terribly nice. Extremely nice. Just like the people behind the brand, who are *awfully* nice. 

Now if thats what you want, then they are utterly superb. However, they are without rhythm and timing - indeed, I was heard to mutter to a friend that "the bass line is stuck somewhere on the M4 travelling in this direction" at dinner that evening. Which is a hugely unfair generalising comment, but has a grain of truth in it.

But people like them. That's how Harbeth keep going and by the looks of it, they seem to be doing it successfully. I'm sure your stack of Naim and DBL's sound great but like Harbeth, may not be everyone's cup of tea. 

But I have multiple systems -- my ISO calibrated listening room has ATCs, for example, amongst other things (a full Dolby authorised 7.2.6 Atmos system, for example)

And we test hundreds of audio products each year. I am hardly stuck in my ways.

I agree. Harsh treble is often due to flutter in the room. Room treatment is an important part of the set up. The tweeter in kudos s20 is first class but cant fix the room acoustics. 

speakers are such a mystery that its only in your own room that you can get the full impact of your choice. I recently got the chance to try a pair of ex demo audiovector floor standers. They're just great and that particular room and the arrivas they replace will be up for sale soon.

If you cant try a pair of speakers at home then don't buy them!

sjw posted:

speakers are such a mystery that its only in your own room that you can get the full impact of your choice. I recently got the chance to try a pair of ex demo audiovector floor standers. They're just great and that particular room and the arrivas they replace will be up for sale soon.

If you cant try a pair of speakers at home then don't buy them! on the speakers and room! 

Maybe it depends on the speakers and the room!

I bought IMF TLS50ii speakers many years ago following audition at a dealer, and they sounded great in all 6 rooms I've heard them in since: slightly different, but not enough to be of any concern. Similarly a pair of IMF RSPM speakers sounded great in the 4 rooms I used them in, though in the 4th, an odd-shaped room, the sound was not good at first and I had to do major repositioning of speakers and listening position and replan the room internals before finding a position that workedcwell (aided by REW).

I agree in that it`s also about the speaker in the room, not necessarily the room alone. Speakers have different designs s and they will vary. I had another speaker brand for audition also, I would 've make them work as well, but it would be more demanding. It was easy to hear Kudos integrated better in the first place.

Another thing that turned me a bit off with Harbeths was the dealer. Before I could have a home audition I had to go to them first, to confirm this was a speaker to my liking. This, even if I was willing to pay for them first. Driving 1000km in total, spend the night at a hotel and listen to them in a unknown room, with unknown electronics? Even worse with th Proacs and ATC. No home audition possible