Why I returned to S-400s (this is long, please do something else if you have spare time)

Posted by: Massimo Bertola on 11 March 2017

Well, just to introduce the proper climate for such an uninteresting topic (please leave now, reader, if you think you know how this is going to end), my friend Dr Mark, who will be staying with us for a few days in April, has expressed the hope to still find the Ovators here when he arrives.

More seriously, I am eager to share the reasons for this choice of mine, because they equally divide between acutely sensible and unbelievably silly, and it will be up to the reader's acuteness to tell which is which.

In casual order (but who can say if chance rules when thoughts can only come to the threshold of the conscious mind one at a time and some form of hierarchy obviously takes place?):

– I cannot stand plain parallelepipeds; after 80 years or so of speaker design, is there a real necessity to design a squared coffin just because it's cheaper, then fill it with costly (?) drivers and wrap it with specious motivations (we designed them using Naim amps) ? What's more – as I have learned in 64 years of attentive aestheticism – everything (including discs and sopranos) sound exactly how it looks, and I always know, when I am facing a parallelepiped, that I'll get that sound. This made me exclude ProAc, Kudos, Spendor, some Focal, Monitor Audio, sadly Credos, and an infinite numbers of others.

– The same for semi-parallelepipeds: like when makers add a slope or a voluptuous curve to suggest that they have gotten rid of stationary waves while cunningly adding to the beauty. Like, say, Apertura, or Wilson Benesch, or some Thiel or B&Ws or Usher; or Cantons, which make such a wide range of models to flag almost all the quoted categories. Not to mention, last, the most dishonest concept of all history of loudspeakers: Sonus Faber and its medicine man claim that imitating the shape of a violin will make a loudspeaker sound musically. Absurd, mystifying.

– All loudspeakers referring to musical or, worse, Operatic terms. So, let's take Norma and Pavarotti and Cremona and Liuto and Callas and so on and let's fill a container to the brim, destination hyper-space.

– Speakers whose enclosure costs more than the sum of all drivers, claiming the use of aerospace, hi-tech medicine, military-grade materials as resolutive (hey, knowing that I am listening to something whose assemblage technique comes from the way they assembled weapons used to make tabula rasa of mid-eastern villages populated with women and children gives me a real thrill..) for the (usually) unprecedented performance of the design. So, thanks Wilson, Magico, YGAcoustics, you can continue your personal triangular war to sell the costliest speaker on Earth but I won't be in the audience.

– Harbeth. I swear to that guy I sometimes quote improperly and uselessly, I did everything I could to like them. I tried, and I tried and I tried, but I can't get no... You know the tune. Harbeth claims the best midrange on Earth, but then try to have tight, tuneful bass or the sound moving a few mm outside the speakers. Alan Shaw has my unconditioned admiration when he explains the reasons behind his design, and even more when he posts that he has spent a Sunday taking long walks in Lindfield, taking beautiful pics of that idyllic village and ending the day with a pint at the local pub. He's a very smart guy, but I need some adrenaline once in a while.

– Stand mounts. It is enough for me to take a look at the System Pics thread of any audio forum on the Planet Earth and the will to live abandons me a little. This will not justify the unforgivable acquiescence with which many (too many) owners of audio choose what their wives choose (the mere facts that choosing a loudspeaker is much more difficult than choosing a wife [and, anyway, it's much less often done while being drunk] should establish some hierarchy after all), but it is a given fact that stands for small speakers are among the ugliest things ever invented. It took Naim to design a graceful foot for the N-Sat. For that, it took Naim to design a stand mount so graceful, curvaceous, elegant to be able to make the LS3/5A and its absurd history, comparable to the one of the dinosaur being revived from a mosquito in Jurassic Park, disappear forever. And yet, the LS3/5A is still around while the prettiest small speaker ever made is discontinued. If I hadn't bought five pairs of them I sometimes would almost believe they never existed. The world is a strange place. Before someone at Naim patiently remind me that they were discontinued because they didn't sell enough, well think of me: two of the five pairs I bought new.

– Now, the difficult part: previous Naim speakers. I have had many, if not most of them. I have owned two pairs of SBLs, one of Arivas, I have tried here the Allae (screaming), the Credos (unfortunately belonging to the parallelepiped type, and sounding too much ProAc-style), I have had five pairs of Sats the last of which is here and won't go anywhere (they have great qualities, but lack some important others), and two pairs of Ovator S-400. I have heard (and quickly laboured to forget) the NBL, and my only encounter with the DBL was in the carpentry of Naim where a pair was playing driven by an olive Nait2. Playing is perhaps too much; they seemed to talk, in a sort of tuneful and mannered way. In the end, the SBL is a masterpiece of its time, but it's not its time anymore and I don't belong to the Cult Of Vinyl. I adore the mess one has to pass through for the setup, I like the silicone and the pads thing, I love everything about them but they look like little robots and we are in 2017. I also liked the IBLs, but never had the nerve to buy some – I mean, would you date Björk lightheartedly? So, one morning I simply found myself with a brand new, triple boxed, immaculate Luxman L590 AX II that had took me exactly three days (hey, you, who believe that you must give months to a piece of equipment for it to reveal its true nature, have you ever tried to conduct an orchestra and have milliseconds to decide if an instrument, or a section of instruments, is playing the right notes, is in tune, goes together and is playing the way then composer intended?) to decide it was not for me. So I went to my dealer, who is sufficiently greedy to promote the costlier things and let the really good ones gather dust in a corner until the proper buyer appears, who still had a gorgeous pair of Rosewood S-400s unemployed, so to speak. And told him straight: my Luxman for your Ovators. I knew I was perhaps losing something, but it's Spring here, and I am convinced that these are the only speakers I could reasonably have. Plus, they are beautiful, and I am very happy that Naim was the only one able to make a quadrangular coffin look like a really cool (or posh, like HH would say) piece of furniture. So, who cares?

Best

Max

 

 

Posted on: 11 March 2017 by rsch

Well done Max,

As i already told, despite the huge offering on the market, it's really hard to find a better alternative in this price bracket.

P.s. Incidentally we have now 400s in the same veneer.

Regards

Roberto

Posted on: 11 March 2017 by nigelb

Max, I know very little about the S400s but I wanted to say how much I enjoyed your writing. Posts like yours make this a better place. You have no need to be self-conscious, keep up the good work.

Glad you have arrived in a good place.

N

Posted on: 11 March 2017 by Streamz

Made me smile. And it's good to see that apparently there are more people ten me who exclude brands purely on subjective grounds. 

I mean, when I was in the process of replacing my ProAcs, somebody suggested Usher and Klipsch. "Kliepsj." I just couldn't take that name seriously. Discarded. Usher, well, no explanation needed. Discarded. 

There are more. Schiit, they did it on purpose. Funny for maybe 2 seconds.  Horning, eh, well, that's my dirty mind. 

It's not just stupid names. There was a 42Labs hype going on a couple of years ago. Tin can with some wires. No, no, no, I'd like to pay for quality, which includes casework and internals. Specially at that pricepoint. 

I can go on and on about this sort of thing. 

During typing I just realize that it just doesn't make sense. Naim is just as a unfunny joke. Hm. 

 

 

Posted on: 11 March 2017 by Tabby cat

Max,

Thanks for such a nice reply to my question.

I suppose what your saying with Naim it's a comfortable place to be again backed up by your experience over many years of experiment.

Loved your thoughts about the cabinet enclosures costing more than the components inside with regard to Magico and Wilson.Also your observations about  Sonus Faber and how making a loudspeaker enclosure to mirror a violin will make people think it's a musical instrument.And their operatic names brought a big smile.

Wishing you a good weekend listening to your 400's

Cheers Ian

Posted on: 11 March 2017 by Ravenswood10

Awful speakers S600s - perhaps that's what I like mine so much. On classical they're fantastic. I don't listen to rock and other so called foot tapping , head banging , ear bleeding stuff so perhaps I've found my sweet spot

Posted on: 11 March 2017 by DavidDever

They are a remarkably good speaker on other manufacturers' electronics–a facet of the development process which is often lost or communicated less-than-effectively–and benefit greatly from proper optimization that might (at first glance) appear at odds with that of traditional Naim loudspeakers.

Posted on: 11 March 2017 by Bart

I listened to S400's only once, for about 20 minutes, at the end of a Super Uniti, in my dealer's listening room.  I didn't like them much, but such are speakers and preferences.  I  DID like the look; I'd be happy to own them looks-wise but they did not scratch the itch I was lookin' to scratch at the time.  

Finding something . . .  anything . . . that we like as much as Max likes his speakers is fun to read about.  Carry on, Max. Cheers!

Posted on: 11 March 2017 by Kiwi cat

Max, loved your write up. My Ovator400s are the end point of my Naim "soup to nuts" system. And despite the humble lavender interconnect and plain A5 speaker cable, they disappear into the music. I can't understand the antipathy towards these speakers from some quarters. They sounded very nice last night with a decorked Barolo. ATB.

Posted on: 11 March 2017 by Willy
Richard Dane posted:

Thank you Max.  What a lovely post to read after a fairly chilly day baby-sitting a Bentley at the Acoustica show.

I also liked the IBLs, but never had the nerve to buy some – I mean, would you date Björk lightheartedly?

Very nicely put. It made me smile. Many an IBL admirer would be nodding their head at this...

Indeed.

Willy.

Posted on: 11 March 2017 by Massimo Bertola

Dear friends,

I am really happy that many of you enjoyed my write up. I have been crossing a strange moment since one month ago, and things of all sorts – mental, emotional, communicative – are changing before my own nose while I live and do my usual things. I like the 400s seriously, they are getting better each day and what I realize most is how they manage to simply sound full, balanced, ready to music but never 'on speed'. I am sorry I gave upon so soon years ago with the first pair; these, anyway, do sound different. I suspect Naim did something in between.

Best

M

 

Posted on: 11 March 2017 by Timmo1341
Kiwi cat posted:

Max, loved your write up. My Ovator400s are the end point of my Naim "soup to nuts" system. And despite the humble lavender interconnect and plain A5 speaker cable, they disappear into the music. I can't understand the antipathy towards these speakers from some quarters. They sounded very nice last night with a decorked Barolo. ATB.

Not antipathy, just don't like the sound or looks as much as other speakers, but totally appreciate why others might choose them. As ever, "chacun â son gout"!

Posted on: 11 March 2017 by Tony2011

Forgive me  but this this thread is  getting a little "soupy". 

Posted on: 12 March 2017 by Massimo Bertola

Tony2011,

I had to google soupy and I am not sure I understand what you mean. If you think it's been dragging itself for too long, we can ask Richard to move it to Padded Cell or to create a new forum, Speakers' (Amen) Corner, where we'll only discuss discontinued models in total and happy uselessness.

Or else, what did you mean?

Ciao, Max

Posted on: 12 March 2017 by nigelb
Max_B posted:

Tony2011,

I had to google soupy and I am not sure I understand what you mean. If you think it's been dragging itself for too long, we can ask Richard to move it to Padded Cell or to create a new forum, Speakers' (Amen) Corner, where we'll only discuss discontinued models in total and happy uselessness.

Or else, what did you mean?

Ciao, Max

No need to move the thread IMO, several of us appear to be enjoying it!

Posted on: 12 March 2017 by Ardbeg10y

Indeed. High Fidelity has many meanings.

Posted on: 12 March 2017 by GraemeH
Max_B posted:

Tony2011,

I had to google soupy and I am not sure I understand what you mean. If you think it's been dragging itself for too long, we can ask Richard to move it to Padded Cell or to create a new forum, Speakers' (Amen) Corner, where we'll only discuss discontinued models in total and happy uselessness.

Or else, what did you mean?

Ciao, Max

I think 'soupy' was inferring sentimental - mawkish even.

G

Posted on: 12 March 2017 by hungryhalibut

Nothing wrong with being sentimental, and even less about trying to discuss and explain decisions in a well thought through way. It makes a refreshing change from the usual 'it's in the manual but I can't be bothered to read it - how do I connect my Hicap?', 'even though you don't want one, get a Chord dac' or 'I don't care if you said you have limited budget, spend £5,000', 'how do I stack my two boxes?' or 'should I leave my equipment on all the time, despite there being a thousand previous posts on exactly the same thing?'  

Posted on: 12 March 2017 by ameden

Hi Max

love the post....and glad you have found speaker nirvana....enjoy !

My best wishes to you and your wife on this beautiful Sunday.

Posted on: 12 March 2017 by Tony2011

Max,

I meant no offence and no need to move your post. I just thought, as Graeme pointed out,  that some of the comments were a little too sentimental, sugary for my palete? That's all.

Enjoy them!

ATB, 

Tony

Posted on: 12 March 2017 by Massimo Bertola

Well I'm glad that this thread was generally welcomed with fun and interest. At the chore of it all, my return to S-400s, which may have enthusiasts and detractors, but in the end turned out being the only visual/sonic/conceptual choices that could make a significant improvement over the Sats. I simply needed more mature speakers, and they had to be Naim. I must have written somewhere that I thought that Naim speakers were what, in my opinion, mostly embodied their concept and sound, and I still think so.

Good Sunday to all,

M

Posted on: 12 March 2017 by Hook

Congratulations Max.  Hope you are enjoying your new system.

ATB.

Hook

Posted on: 13 March 2017 by Massimo Bertola
ameden posted:

Hi Max

love the post....and glad you have found speaker nirvana....enjoy !

My best wishes to you and your wife on this beautiful Sunday.

Thanks!

Max

Posted on: 13 March 2017 by Massimo Bertola
Hook posted:

Congratulations Max.  Hope you are enjoying your new system.

ATB.

Hook

I am, thanks. There must be something different in at least three factors: the S-400s (no-one will confirm or deny this, but I am sure that this second pair my dealer brought, and I brought by him, sounded a little different from my first one, immediately. Even he noticed it. Like if already run-in, or voiced slightly differently); the room/speaker interaction: they are positioned better; my final conclusion that it was the Sats or the S-400s. And since I already had Sats and they were not always 'enough', I gave S-400s a second chance.

I am not saying that they are perfect, but they come after Marten Design Miles II, Marten Monks, SBL, N-Sats, Arivas, Allaes, Credos, rega RS7s, clones of ProAc response 1, PMC Twenty 24, rega Kytes, AR4x, AR14s, Stirling LS3/5A, Sonus Faber Concertos had been auditioned here. It was the Sats or the S-400s, and now it's both. The only two speaker systems that have ever really stirred my curiosity. Heaven, if there's any, will be forgetting about the two extra PSU sockets on the rear of CD and SN, and it's not always easy to ignore the B-side of a lovely creature. But I'll do my best.

Max

Posted on: 13 March 2017 by Massimo Bertola
Tony2011 posted:

Max,

I meant no offence and no need to move your post. I just thought, as Graeme pointed out,  that some of the comments were a little too sentimental, sugary for my palete? That's all.

Enjoy them!

ATB, 

Tony

Understood, thanks. Was palete for palate or for palette? I found it interesting both ways. 

ATB

Max

Posted on: 13 March 2017 by Tony2011
Max_B posted:
Tony2011 posted:

Max,

I meant no offence and no need to move your post. I just thought, as Graeme pointed out,  that some of the comments were a little too sentimental, sugary for my palete? That's all.

Enjoy them!

ATB, 

Tony

Understood, thanks. Was palete for palate or for palette? I found it interesting both ways. 

ATB

Max

Good. Now for the second English lesson. Try dick and deck. A little Australian accent might help. 

PS: avoyd using iPads with predicktive tits. They are a beat ova  noughtmare!