Why I returned to S-400s (this is long, please do something else if you have spare time)

Posted by: Massimo Bertola on 11 March 2017

Well, just to introduce the proper climate for such an uninteresting topic (please leave now, reader, if you think you know how this is going to end), my friend Dr Mark, who will be staying with us for a few days in April, has expressed the hope to still find the Ovators here when he arrives.

More seriously, I am eager to share the reasons for this choice of mine, because they equally divide between acutely sensible and unbelievably silly, and it will be up to the reader's acuteness to tell which is which.

In casual order (but who can say if chance rules when thoughts can only come to the threshold of the conscious mind one at a time and some form of hierarchy obviously takes place?):

– I cannot stand plain parallelepipeds; after 80 years or so of speaker design, is there a real necessity to design a squared coffin just because it's cheaper, then fill it with costly (?) drivers and wrap it with specious motivations (we designed them using Naim amps) ? What's more – as I have learned in 64 years of attentive aestheticism – everything (including discs and sopranos) sound exactly how it looks, and I always know, when I am facing a parallelepiped, that I'll get that sound. This made me exclude ProAc, Kudos, Spendor, some Focal, Monitor Audio, sadly Credos, and an infinite numbers of others.

– The same for semi-parallelepipeds: like when makers add a slope or a voluptuous curve to suggest that they have gotten rid of stationary waves while cunningly adding to the beauty. Like, say, Apertura, or Wilson Benesch, or some Thiel or B&Ws or Usher; or Cantons, which make such a wide range of models to flag almost all the quoted categories. Not to mention, last, the most dishonest concept of all history of loudspeakers: Sonus Faber and its medicine man claim that imitating the shape of a violin will make a loudspeaker sound musically. Absurd, mystifying.

– All loudspeakers referring to musical or, worse, Operatic terms. So, let's take Norma and Pavarotti and Cremona and Liuto and Callas and so on and let's fill a container to the brim, destination hyper-space.

– Speakers whose enclosure costs more than the sum of all drivers, claiming the use of aerospace, hi-tech medicine, military-grade materials as resolutive (hey, knowing that I am listening to something whose assemblage technique comes from the way they assembled weapons used to make tabula rasa of mid-eastern villages populated with women and children gives me a real thrill..) for the (usually) unprecedented performance of the design. So, thanks Wilson, Magico, YGAcoustics, you can continue your personal triangular war to sell the costliest speaker on Earth but I won't be in the audience.

– Harbeth. I swear to that guy I sometimes quote improperly and uselessly, I did everything I could to like them. I tried, and I tried and I tried, but I can't get no... You know the tune. Harbeth claims the best midrange on Earth, but then try to have tight, tuneful bass or the sound moving a few mm outside the speakers. Alan Shaw has my unconditioned admiration when he explains the reasons behind his design, and even more when he posts that he has spent a Sunday taking long walks in Lindfield, taking beautiful pics of that idyllic village and ending the day with a pint at the local pub. He's a very smart guy, but I need some adrenaline once in a while.

– Stand mounts. It is enough for me to take a look at the System Pics thread of any audio forum on the Planet Earth and the will to live abandons me a little. This will not justify the unforgivable acquiescence with which many (too many) owners of audio choose what their wives choose (the mere facts that choosing a loudspeaker is much more difficult than choosing a wife [and, anyway, it's much less often done while being drunk] should establish some hierarchy after all), but it is a given fact that stands for small speakers are among the ugliest things ever invented. It took Naim to design a graceful foot for the N-Sat. For that, it took Naim to design a stand mount so graceful, curvaceous, elegant to be able to make the LS3/5A and its absurd history, comparable to the one of the dinosaur being revived from a mosquito in Jurassic Park, disappear forever. And yet, the LS3/5A is still around while the prettiest small speaker ever made is discontinued. If I hadn't bought five pairs of them I sometimes would almost believe they never existed. The world is a strange place. Before someone at Naim patiently remind me that they were discontinued because they didn't sell enough, well think of me: two of the five pairs I bought new.

– Now, the difficult part: previous Naim speakers. I have had many, if not most of them. I have owned two pairs of SBLs, one of Arivas, I have tried here the Allae (screaming), the Credos (unfortunately belonging to the parallelepiped type, and sounding too much ProAc-style), I have had five pairs of Sats the last of which is here and won't go anywhere (they have great qualities, but lack some important others), and two pairs of Ovator S-400. I have heard (and quickly laboured to forget) the NBL, and my only encounter with the DBL was in the carpentry of Naim where a pair was playing driven by an olive Nait2. Playing is perhaps too much; they seemed to talk, in a sort of tuneful and mannered way. In the end, the SBL is a masterpiece of its time, but it's not its time anymore and I don't belong to the Cult Of Vinyl. I adore the mess one has to pass through for the setup, I like the silicone and the pads thing, I love everything about them but they look like little robots and we are in 2017. I also liked the IBLs, but never had the nerve to buy some – I mean, would you date Björk lightheartedly? So, one morning I simply found myself with a brand new, triple boxed, immaculate Luxman L590 AX II that had took me exactly three days (hey, you, who believe that you must give months to a piece of equipment for it to reveal its true nature, have you ever tried to conduct an orchestra and have milliseconds to decide if an instrument, or a section of instruments, is playing the right notes, is in tune, goes together and is playing the way then composer intended?) to decide it was not for me. So I went to my dealer, who is sufficiently greedy to promote the costlier things and let the really good ones gather dust in a corner until the proper buyer appears, who still had a gorgeous pair of Rosewood S-400s unemployed, so to speak. And told him straight: my Luxman for your Ovators. I knew I was perhaps losing something, but it's Spring here, and I am convinced that these are the only speakers I could reasonably have. Plus, they are beautiful, and I am very happy that Naim was the only one able to make a quadrangular coffin look like a really cool (or posh, like HH would say) piece of furniture. So, who cares?

Best

Max

 

 

Posted on: 13 March 2017 by Fred11

Dear Max.

I also did the S-400 move some weeks ago. I have had SBLs for about 6 years now, and in comes a chance to try out the S-400. They are different, indeed. But I Reading many wise recomendations about positioning, especially from mr Dark Bear. Elevating the front spikes, and giving them room, made everythin fall into Place. With my nac 12, hicap, 160 (With modified internal Cards), my Tiger paw Akulaed LP12 and my ndac it now sounds fabulous. The sound is bigger and fuller than the SBLs, at the same time it retains speed and punch. Low tones on the piano have such a lovely body. The SBLs has a more intense HF. It can sound more eager and PRATty, but playing my lp12 sounds even more engaging with the Ovator, for example playing Bowie, Solange (RNB), Dylan or M. Davis. Not as in Your face, but more engaging and emotional.

When I put the SBLs back after Three weeks my wife, who prefer the SBL because of its retro look and descreet placement up agaings the wall, looked at me and said "the Ovators sounds much better". I agree. It was like something was missing going back to the SBLs. 1/3 of the information was removed from the scene. Allmost anemic (hope I do not offence anybody here). I can not understand that the Ovator did not sell more. It feels like a 6000 pund loudspeaker in sound, finnish and quality. But, like so many has written, it needs carefull placement.

I allways enjoyed Your post, Max. I remember Your first date With the Ovators did not og well, but I am glad to see you two have gotten together on together now.

From another Ovator-fan.

Fred

Posted on: 13 March 2017 by Ardbeg10y

Guys

I have my eyes in direction for Ovators for a year now. I like them for estethical (explained perfectly by Max) and practical reasons.  Practical also, since my 9 year old has damaged my midrange driver of my beloveth BW CM1 when I was explaining him the concept of soundwaves / hertz etc... He just tried to feel the vibrations and my Supernait 1 mercilessly hammered the midrange in full control against his finger. It will be the third repair of my speakers upcoming. So, the practical reason for Ovators is that they have metal grills ...

Question. If the Ovators are that good, why are they so cheap? They are s/h cheaper than some designer bag bought on Camps Elyssees.

What is the magic to have them sound good?

How is their bass extention?

Do they prefer to stand in a smaller room or a larger room? (I have 4x3 meters and 11x4.5 available)

Thanks from a potential Ovator owner

Posted on: 13 March 2017 by GraemeH
Ardbeg10y posted:

Guys

I have my eyes in direction for Ovators for a year now. I like them for estethical (explained perfectly by Max) and practical reasons.  Practical also, since my 9 year old has damaged my midrange driver of my beloveth BW CM1 when I was explaining him the concept of soundwaves / hertz etc... He just tried to feel the vibrations and my Supernait 1 mercilessly hammered the midrange in full control against his finger. It will be the third repair of my speakers upcoming. So, the practical reason for Ovators is that they have metal grills ...

Question. If the Ovators are that good, why are they so cheap? They are s/h cheaper than some designer bag bought on Camps Elyssees.

What is the magic to have them sound good?

How is their bass extention?

Do they prefer to stand in a smaller room or a larger room? (I have 4x3 meters and 11x4.5 available)

Thanks from a potential Ovator owner

Hi - I use mine in a 5m x 12m x 3.5m open plan space and with a 250DR.  They visually don't overpower the room and sound glorious top to bottom. Probably about 2.5m apart and just over that to my seat - Bay window behind so no boundary bass 'enhancement' either.

Firing straight ahead, no tilt. 

Hope that helps,

G

Posted on: 13 March 2017 by Adam Zielinski
Ardbeg10y posted:

Guys

I have my eyes in direction for Ovators for a year now. I like them for estethical (explained perfectly by Max) and practical reasons.  Practical also, since my 9 year old has damaged my midrange driver of my beloveth BW CM1 when I was explaining him the concept of soundwaves / hertz etc... He just tried to feel the vibrations and my Supernait 1 mercilessly hammered the midrange in full control against his finger. It will be the third repair of my speakers upcoming. So, the practical reason for Ovators is that they have metal grills ...

Question. If the Ovators are that good, why are they so cheap? They are s/h cheaper than some designer bag bought on Camps Elyssees.

What is the magic to have them sound good?

How is their bass extention?

Do they prefer to stand in a smaller room or a larger room? (I have 4x3 meters and 11x4.5 available)

Thanks from a potential Ovator owner

They are some of the fastest, most detailed speakers I've heard. Suitable for all sorts of rooms - difficult to predict how they will fare in each, as there are so many variables.
In my case they happily reside in space of approximately 18 sqm.

Posted on: 13 March 2017 by Hook
Max_B posted:
Hook posted:

Congratulations Max.  Hope you are enjoying your new system.

ATB.

Hook

I am, thanks. There must be something different in at least three factors: the S-400s (no-one will confirm or deny this, but I am sure that this second pair my dealer brought, and I brought by him, sounded a little different from my first one, immediately. Even he noticed it. Like if already run-in, or voiced slightly differently); the room/speaker interaction: they are positioned better; my final conclusion that it was the Sats or the S-400s. And since I already had Sats and they were not always 'enough', I gave S-400s a second chance.

I am not saying that they are perfect, but they come after Marten Design Miles II, Marten Monks, SBL, N-Sats, Arivas, Allaes, Credos, rega RS7s, clones of ProAc response 1, PMC Twenty 24, rega Kytes, AR4x, AR14s, Stirling LS3/5A, Sonus Faber Concertos had been auditioned here. It was the Sats or the S-400s, and now it's both. The only two speaker systems that have ever really stirred my curiosity. Heaven, if there's any, will be forgetting about the two extra PSU sockets on the rear of CD and SN, and it's not always easy to ignore the B-side of a lovely creature. But I'll do my best.

Max

Like you Max, I've tried lots of different speakers in my small, heavily damped listening room (~4x3m). Quite a few sounded fine at shows or in dealer demo rooms, but none sounded better than the 400s once I got them home.

It is possible your first pair had a flaw, or that later models have been quietly improved by Naim. That has certainly been their practice with electronics over the years.  What vintage is your current pair? I bought mine in mid-2011 (s/n 306889).

Hook

PS - Mine sound best with a very small amount of toe-in, but definitley no tilt. Last I heard, BMR drivers liked to kept as level as possible.

Posted on: 13 March 2017 by Massimo Bertola
GraemeH posted:
Ardbeg10y posted:

Guys

Question. If the Ovators are that good, why are they so cheap?

G

 

Graeme,

when the Ovator S-400s were introduced I remember that their website page included indications that they had been made to replace the Allae. In some of the few remaining 'suggested systems' pages that can still be found, they are ideally coupled with the 155/152 combo, or with the Nait XS. They are not ideally matched with a 500 series. The 600s, if I remember correctly, had a Supernait as natural partner. So, perhaps they are not cheap, they are well designed, well built, properly priced and very cleverly marketed – although history has proved that keeping the prices low hasn't paid: Ovators and Sats are extinct while Statements (or, for that, CD555, NAC552, NAP500, SuperLumina...) sell. 

Let's start wondering if the discontinued products were, in part and really, just the ones we now consider 'cheap'...

Max

Posted on: 13 March 2017 by Massimo Bertola
Hook posted:

Like you Max, I've tried lots of different speakers in my small, heavily damped listening room (~4x3m). Quite a few sounded fine at shows or in dealer demo rooms, but none sounded better than the 400s once I got them home.

It is possible your first pair had a flaw, or that later models have been quietly improved by Naim. That has certainly been their practice with electronics over the years.  What vintage is your current pair?  Mine are early 2011 (s/n 306889).

Hook

PS - Mine sound best with a very small amount of toe-in, but definitley no tilt. Last I heard, BMR drivers liked to kept as level as possible.

Hi,

mine are 337195. I use a small amount of toe-in mainly because I love to see the black panel and the two thin lines of the visible strips of the sides... Very elegant. Sounds good too, luckily.

M

Posted on: 13 March 2017 by Christopher_M
Max_B posted:
The 600s, if I remember correctly, had a Supernait as natural partner.

202/ 200.

(Apologies Max, my contribution adds almost nothing to your thread except that a newbie 202/ 200 owner who is looking for new speakers and had previously discounted S-600s as being unsuitable, would now know that Naim think otherwise and might look for a used pair).

Glad the S-400s are good for you.

C.

 

Posted on: 13 March 2017 by Massimo Bertola

Hi C.,

thanks, you're right. (You're not talking about yourself, aren't you..?)

M.

Posted on: 13 March 2017 by Christopher_M
Max_B posted:
 (You're not talking about yourself, aren't you..?)

As an SBL owner, you have got to be kidding!

C.

Posted on: 13 March 2017 by greekspec2

a local dealer here has a pair of S-800 Ovators in Carbon Fiber finish for  sale which are pretty bad ass and I had a good demo with on a full 500 system pushing them

Posted on: 13 March 2017 by Ardbeg10y
GraemeH posted:

Hi - I use mine in a 5m x 12m x 3.5m open plan space and with a 250DR.  They visually don't overpower the room and sound glorious top to bottom. Probably about 2.5m apart and just over that to my seat - Bay window behind so no boundary bass 'enhancement' either.

Firing straight ahead, no tilt. 

Hope that helps,

G

Thanks, G.

I've a house build in the twenties, and it has a bay windows too, just behind the sofa. Currently, I've only BW CM1's in the bookshelves (yes, really) which are next to the french doors at the other side of the room. I have the feeling that this bay windows is having a positive impact on the sound. Don't know why, but the room sounds good when having speakers which have a pretty forward 'pushing' sound - but the room makes it round and enjoyable. Same speakers, different room, no luck. Previously, I had some floorstanders having side speakers too. These speakers did not fire properly in the room, but sound was more hanging around them.

Thanks to others too for this great topic.

Posted on: 14 March 2017 by rsch
Max_B posted:
 

mine are 337195. I use a small amount of toe-in mainly because I love to see the black panel and the two thin lines of the visible strips of the sides... Very elegant. Sounds good too, luckily.

M

How much toe in exactly ?

R.

Posted on: 14 March 2017 by Adam Zielinski
rsch posted:
Max_B posted:
 

mine are 337195. I use a small amount of toe-in mainly because I love to see the black panel and the two thin lines of the visible strips of the sides... Very elegant. Sounds good too, luckily.

M

How much toe in exactly ?

R.

I also use a small amount of 'toe-in' -
If you imagine a parallel line (with speakers in a full frontal position), the inside spikes are moved by 1 cm away from that line.
That's what works for me, in my room.

I encourage experimentation - best if you get a tape measure and use it when moving speakers - to get the distance and the toe-in precisely the same.
I must have moved my Ovators at least 5 or 6 times until I found a good spot for them.

Posted on: 14 March 2017 by Ardbeg10y
Adam Zielinski posted:

I also use a small amount of 'toe-in' -
If you imagine a parallel line (with speakers in a full frontal position), the inside spikes are moved by 1 cm away from that line.
That's what works for me, in my room.

I encourage experimentation - best if you get a tape measure and use it when moving speakers - to get the distance and the toe-in precisely the same.
I must have moved my Ovators at least 5 or 6 times until I found a good spot for them.

Bit off topic ...

By speaker positioning I learned how sensitive human hearing is. I have 2 speakers about 1.8 meters apart and between it a TV in my TV room. There was an very audible unbalance. So I thought that my Nait 5 was broken or needing a service or the balance internally changede. It came out that 1 of the speakers was 1 centimeter closer to the listening position than the other.

This is in my case 0.3% difference in distance - and sound travels by about 300 meters per second ...

... never thought that ears are that good! (and I think I have 'normal' (however well-trained)) ears.

Posted on: 14 March 2017 by Adam Zielinski
Ardbeg10y posted:
Adam Zielinski posted:

I also use a small amount of 'toe-in' -
If you imagine a parallel line (with speakers in a full frontal position), the inside spikes are moved by 1 cm away from that line.
That's what works for me, in my room.

I encourage experimentation - best if you get a tape measure and use it when moving speakers - to get the distance and the toe-in precisely the same.
I must have moved my Ovators at least 5 or 6 times until I found a good spot for them.

Bit off topic ...

By speaker positioning I learned how sensitive human hearing is. I have 2 speakers about 1.8 meters apart and between it a TV in my TV room. There was an very audible unbalance. So I thought that my Nait 5 was broken or needing a service or the balance internally changede. It came out that 1 of the speakers was 1 centimeter closer to the listening position than the other.

This is in my case 0.3% difference in distance - and sound travels by about 300 meters per second ...

... never thought that ears are that good! (and I think I have 'normal' (however well-trained)) ears.

It's not even the absolute position of the speakers. The human ear will compensate for the differences you've described (in an evenly laid out room).


I'm pretty sure it was the uneven reverbations that were causing the perceived difference.

Posted on: 14 March 2017 by Massimo Bertola
rsch posted:
Max_B posted:
 

mine are 337195. I use a small amount of toe-in mainly because I love to see the black panel and the two thin lines of the visible strips of the sides... Very elegant. Sounds good too, luckily.

M

How much toe in exactly ?

R.

Roberto,

it's difficult for me to quantify the amount of toe-in. I'll try to take a pic from my sitting position to show you what I mean.

I can see the front of the 400s from my sitting position, which is 3 mt from the front panels, and barely the sides. My idea is to have exactly the same cm or so of visible side of each speaker 'framing' the front. It may be a more aesthetic than technical approach, but it seems to work acoustically too.

For a more detailed info, here are the distances of the corners of the speakers from the rear wall: inner, 26 cm; outer, 32 cm. Someone with a geometry-gifted mind could easily calculate the amount of ° of my toe-in. So far, I haven't experienced any excess bass. They get better each day, and I sincerely think I have found the right compromise between a 'domestic' and a 'Naimistic' presentation.  

Max

Posted on: 14 March 2017 by Haim Ronen

Max,

Is the left speaker more toed in? I am able to see some of its wooden panel (facing out) while the same panel is invisible on the right speaker. It's probably only my photographer's eye but I feel obliged to report.

H

Posted on: 14 March 2017 by GraemeH
Haim Ronen posted:

Max,

Is the left speaker more toed in? I am able to see some of its wooden panel (facing out) while the same panel is invisible on the right speaker. It's probably only my photographer's eye but I feel obliged to report.

H

Parallax at play Haim. Look how much higher the right speaker sits in the photo.

G

Posted on: 14 March 2017 by Massimo Bertola
GraemeH posted:
Haim Ronen posted:

Max,

Is the left speaker more toed in? I am able to see some of its wooden panel (facing out) while the same panel is invisible on the right speaker. It's probably only my photographer's eye but I feel obliged to report.

H

Parallax at play Haim. Look how much higher the right speaker sits in the photo.

G

A polite way to say that my picture is badly executed... I know, I am not good at it. 

Anyway, Haim is right: I measured again, and although the quotes I gave are approximated by a very few mm, the left speaker's inner corner is 1 cm closer to the rear wall than the right one's. Haim's photographer's eyes are working well.

As a sign of good will – and in homage to my renovation spirit – I'll now go to the living room with a meter and correct the difference. I can't promise I'll be able to report any audible difference. But I have a question: supposing I place the two 400s in exactly the same position relatively to the wall, by mm's; what with my position on the sofa each time I sit down, unless I am immobilized like Hannibal Lecter on the same precise spot each time?

Thanks

M

 

Posted on: 14 March 2017 by Ardbeg10y

Why is this precise / sweet spot so important? In my living room, I don't want to have a clear point where all the sound concentrates and should give the feeling that you are on the location of the mic in the recording (and put the same designer chair as many people have). I just want good music in all of my room and one of the reasons why I (theoritically) like Ovators is that they have wide-dispertion and therefore should be less prone to fail creating a stereo image or so. For 4 part Jazz I could imagine that this is important, but for orchestras etc, what is the relevance of knowing the location of the piccolo?

Maybe I should get Shahinian Arcs ...

Posted on: 14 March 2017 by Adam Zielinski

Max - the good thing with the Ovators is their wide dispertion. So the listening sweet spot is quite wide - definitely good enough for at least a couple, cudling up

Posted on: 14 March 2017 by Ardbeg10y
Adam Zielinski posted:

Max - the good thing with the Ovators is their wide dispertion. So the listening sweet spot is quite wide - definitely good enough for at least a couple, cudling up

Good argument. Will (mis) use it! Thanks.

Posted on: 14 March 2017 by Drewy

The Ovators are the least fussy speakers I've had. Mine are positioned all wrong at the moment pending an extension across the back of my house. They almost face across each other and still manage to sound good. I can sit eating a meal in my kitchen with one speaker on view through the serving hatch and they still get me tapping my feet. It's one of the advantages of the BMR.

I love them, both of them equally, even though I can only see one through the serving hatch. 

Posted on: 14 March 2017 by Ardbeg10y

This topic starts to be too 'alleluia' - if I may say so in Lent.