Why I returned to S-400s (this is long, please do something else if you have spare time)

Posted by: Massimo Bertola on 11 March 2017

Well, just to introduce the proper climate for such an uninteresting topic (please leave now, reader, if you think you know how this is going to end), my friend Dr Mark, who will be staying with us for a few days in April, has expressed the hope to still find the Ovators here when he arrives.

More seriously, I am eager to share the reasons for this choice of mine, because they equally divide between acutely sensible and unbelievably silly, and it will be up to the reader's acuteness to tell which is which.

In casual order (but who can say if chance rules when thoughts can only come to the threshold of the conscious mind one at a time and some form of hierarchy obviously takes place?):

– I cannot stand plain parallelepipeds; after 80 years or so of speaker design, is there a real necessity to design a squared coffin just because it's cheaper, then fill it with costly (?) drivers and wrap it with specious motivations (we designed them using Naim amps) ? What's more – as I have learned in 64 years of attentive aestheticism – everything (including discs and sopranos) sound exactly how it looks, and I always know, when I am facing a parallelepiped, that I'll get that sound. This made me exclude ProAc, Kudos, Spendor, some Focal, Monitor Audio, sadly Credos, and an infinite numbers of others.

– The same for semi-parallelepipeds: like when makers add a slope or a voluptuous curve to suggest that they have gotten rid of stationary waves while cunningly adding to the beauty. Like, say, Apertura, or Wilson Benesch, or some Thiel or B&Ws or Usher; or Cantons, which make such a wide range of models to flag almost all the quoted categories. Not to mention, last, the most dishonest concept of all history of loudspeakers: Sonus Faber and its medicine man claim that imitating the shape of a violin will make a loudspeaker sound musically. Absurd, mystifying.

– All loudspeakers referring to musical or, worse, Operatic terms. So, let's take Norma and Pavarotti and Cremona and Liuto and Callas and so on and let's fill a container to the brim, destination hyper-space.

– Speakers whose enclosure costs more than the sum of all drivers, claiming the use of aerospace, hi-tech medicine, military-grade materials as resolutive (hey, knowing that I am listening to something whose assemblage technique comes from the way they assembled weapons used to make tabula rasa of mid-eastern villages populated with women and children gives me a real thrill..) for the (usually) unprecedented performance of the design. So, thanks Wilson, Magico, YGAcoustics, you can continue your personal triangular war to sell the costliest speaker on Earth but I won't be in the audience.

– Harbeth. I swear to that guy I sometimes quote improperly and uselessly, I did everything I could to like them. I tried, and I tried and I tried, but I can't get no... You know the tune. Harbeth claims the best midrange on Earth, but then try to have tight, tuneful bass or the sound moving a few mm outside the speakers. Alan Shaw has my unconditioned admiration when he explains the reasons behind his design, and even more when he posts that he has spent a Sunday taking long walks in Lindfield, taking beautiful pics of that idyllic village and ending the day with a pint at the local pub. He's a very smart guy, but I need some adrenaline once in a while.

– Stand mounts. It is enough for me to take a look at the System Pics thread of any audio forum on the Planet Earth and the will to live abandons me a little. This will not justify the unforgivable acquiescence with which many (too many) owners of audio choose what their wives choose (the mere facts that choosing a loudspeaker is much more difficult than choosing a wife [and, anyway, it's much less often done while being drunk] should establish some hierarchy after all), but it is a given fact that stands for small speakers are among the ugliest things ever invented. It took Naim to design a graceful foot for the N-Sat. For that, it took Naim to design a stand mount so graceful, curvaceous, elegant to be able to make the LS3/5A and its absurd history, comparable to the one of the dinosaur being revived from a mosquito in Jurassic Park, disappear forever. And yet, the LS3/5A is still around while the prettiest small speaker ever made is discontinued. If I hadn't bought five pairs of them I sometimes would almost believe they never existed. The world is a strange place. Before someone at Naim patiently remind me that they were discontinued because they didn't sell enough, well think of me: two of the five pairs I bought new.

– Now, the difficult part: previous Naim speakers. I have had many, if not most of them. I have owned two pairs of SBLs, one of Arivas, I have tried here the Allae (screaming), the Credos (unfortunately belonging to the parallelepiped type, and sounding too much ProAc-style), I have had five pairs of Sats the last of which is here and won't go anywhere (they have great qualities, but lack some important others), and two pairs of Ovator S-400. I have heard (and quickly laboured to forget) the NBL, and my only encounter with the DBL was in the carpentry of Naim where a pair was playing driven by an olive Nait2. Playing is perhaps too much; they seemed to talk, in a sort of tuneful and mannered way. In the end, the SBL is a masterpiece of its time, but it's not its time anymore and I don't belong to the Cult Of Vinyl. I adore the mess one has to pass through for the setup, I like the silicone and the pads thing, I love everything about them but they look like little robots and we are in 2017. I also liked the IBLs, but never had the nerve to buy some – I mean, would you date Björk lightheartedly? So, one morning I simply found myself with a brand new, triple boxed, immaculate Luxman L590 AX II that had took me exactly three days (hey, you, who believe that you must give months to a piece of equipment for it to reveal its true nature, have you ever tried to conduct an orchestra and have milliseconds to decide if an instrument, or a section of instruments, is playing the right notes, is in tune, goes together and is playing the way then composer intended?) to decide it was not for me. So I went to my dealer, who is sufficiently greedy to promote the costlier things and let the really good ones gather dust in a corner until the proper buyer appears, who still had a gorgeous pair of Rosewood S-400s unemployed, so to speak. And told him straight: my Luxman for your Ovators. I knew I was perhaps losing something, but it's Spring here, and I am convinced that these are the only speakers I could reasonably have. Plus, they are beautiful, and I am very happy that Naim was the only one able to make a quadrangular coffin look like a really cool (or posh, like HH would say) piece of furniture. So, who cares?

Best

Max

 

 

Posted on: 14 March 2017 by Adam Zielinski

Amen

Posted on: 14 March 2017 by Massimo Bertola

I've been asked about my 400s' toe-in; I measured it, Haim noted a discordance and I corrected it. Dark Bear once used to suggest trying changes in mm to find the perfect spot for the speakers. Now we discover Columbus's egg – the person's perfect spot has no sense and is not possible. I've read of soupiness and of Halleluja-ness; I like to post but I hate to cross the line. Maybe it's time to call it a day. For me, the subject is close. What's more, I fear falling back into perennial dissatisfaction and regulation paranoia and itch to change like the plague.

I had begun saying, basically, I have tried again with the 400s and I'm satisfied. That's it. But thinking of it, it was like coming to Caesar's funeral to praise him. There's no 400s anymore, after all. My three Naim units are all discontinued in the versions I have. Even if I had posted enthusiastically about 272/250DR I'd be late. Shall we close the thread and go to have a walk in the sun?

M

(Richard, I'm glad my Björk thing made you smile, I hoped it did)

Posted on: 15 March 2017 by Marksnaim
Richard Dane posted:

Thank you Max.  What a lovely post to read after a fairly chilly day baby-sitting a Bentley at the Acoustica show.

I also liked the IBLs, but never had the nerve to buy some – I mean, would you date Björk lightheartedly?

Very nicely put. It made me smile. Many an IBL admirer would be nodding their head at this...

Much head nodding here. Even though I've moved the main system on to Isobariks I'll not be selling my IBLs. They will end up in a second system.

Posted on: 15 March 2017 by Innocent Bystander
Ardbeg10y posted:

Why is this precise / sweet spot so important? In my living room, I don't want to have a clear point where all the sound concentrates and should give the feeling that you are on the location of the mic in the recording (and put the same designer chair as many people have). I just want good music in all of my room and one of the reasons why I (theoritically) like Ovators is that they have wide-dispertion and therefore should be less prone to fail creating a stereo image or so. For 4 part Jazz I could imagine that this is important, but for orchestras etc, what is the relevance of knowing the location of the piccolo?

One potential issue with wide dispersion speakers can be the negative effect of increased early reflections from side walls, depending of course on the room. But certainly, unless you only wish to listen aLone and confined to the same spot, a larger good sounding area is desirable.

I actually often move my speakers in my room, and their non ideal position allowing use of projector screen they sound best when not sat in the prime listening position, while when positioned for the latter they don't sound so good in some other pars of the room - but actually that is quite reasonable, even if it does mean walking them about from time to time. The penalty for an awkward room, but gets around the tricky acoustics and dual room use.

 

incidentally, I think the piccolo player thinks it is pretty important to know the location of his instrument, especially  when the score is just coming up to his bit: its a small enough instrument to lose!

Posted on: 15 March 2017 by Quad 33

Dear Max.

Thank you for your erudite thoughts on the S400's. I too have a pair which I bought for some of the very reasons you have articulated. I also understand totally why you do not wish to go down a "rabbit hole" of justification and the "fear of falling back into perennial dissatisfaction and regulation paranoia and itch to change like the plague". Please just enjoy the music your system is now producing and stay well.

Best Regards Graham

Posted on: 15 March 2017 by Massimo Bertola

Thanks Graham,

I appreciate wishes of health and simplicity hugely these days.

Max

Posted on: 15 March 2017 by nigelb

Max,

Call an end to the thread if you wish, but I certainly enjoyed the read as, apparently, did several others. Please don't let a tiny minority put you off from posting again.

Cheers

N

Posted on: 15 March 2017 by sunbeamgls

Late to this particular party, but thanks very much for the OP. It was a long post but is such an easy and enjoyable read. Very well written and gave a real sense of the rational and irrational elements involved in your particular selection process.

Mine is probably equally complex and irrational but, at the same time, very different, which means a very different outcome. My partner still hasn't quite got used to the Twenty.26s. When you enter the room you see them side on - I wonder if there is a word to describe the irrational slightly uncomfortable feeling she gets as she goes through the split second cycle of 'they're falling over, must catch them, oh no they're supposed to be like that' every time she enters the room?

Posted on: 16 March 2017 by Christopher_M
sunbeamgls posted:

I wonder if there is a word to describe the irrational slightly uncomfortable feeling she gets as she goes through the split second cycle of 'they're falling over, must catch them, oh no they're supposed to be like that' every time she enters the room?

Phew.

C.

Posted on: 16 March 2017 by rsch
Adam Zielinski posted:
rsch posted:
Max_B posted:
 

mine are 337195. I use a small amount of toe-in mainly because I love to see the black panel and the two thin lines of the visible strips of the sides... Very elegant. Sounds good too, luckily.

M

How much toe in exactly ?

R.

I also use a small amount of 'toe-in' -
If you imagine a parallel line (with speakers in a full frontal position), the inside spikes are moved by 1 cm away from that line.
That's what works for me, in my room.

I encourage experimentation - best if you get a tape measure and use it when moving speakers - to get the distance and the toe-in precisely the same.
I must have moved my Ovators at least 5 or 6 times until I found a good spot for them.

I have 2-3 mm of toe in either on 600s and 400s

Regards

Roberto

Posted on: 02 April 2017 by MangoMonkey

@Max -

Still liking the ovators?

Also - did you ever get a chance to listen to the Kudos Super 20s? 

Your comment regarding the Harbeths - they do sound very relaxing - and supposedly per alan the antidote to all this gear swapping + Speaker search. But not to be, huh?

Posted on: 23 April 2017 by joerand
DavidDever posted:

They are a remarkably good speaker on other manufacturers' electronics

Ironically, after 5 years of Naim integrateds I finally got a chance to get a pair of S-400s home having just moved to a Plinius integrated in January. Interesting how the Ovators put the Naim signature right back into my system. Good or bad? Still deciding. Love the way they do tight, articulated bass. Sound staging is a little flat and dimensionless and I can't really point to any imaging. Plenty of musicality and while the mids are incredibly clear and resolved, they are also a bit too forward and I feel like some of the life might be sucked out of the vocals. Maybe the BMR unit was asked to handle too wide a range of frequencies. A little bolster from a mid driver might help the singers sound like they have a diaphragm. FWIW - my wife loves the S-400s sound but thinks my Totem Sttafs look nicer in the room.

Posted on: 24 April 2017 by Ardbeg10y

Joerand,

Funny, I have kind of the same observation. If you bring in any Naim component, you'll get something Naimish. Half a year ago I put a Naim AV2 in front of my old Technics amp, which immediately resulted in much better balance and dynamics in music. I found that the Pre-amp is mostly responsible for this, however I'm not an expert here.

It seems - according to the forum tales - that the BMR unit strongly improves when activated. Unfortunately, you need to upgrade to S600's for that. This gives you the opportunity to bring in another Plinius amp too :-)

Posted on: 24 April 2017 by Adam Zielinski

Gents - I beg to differ with regards as to which Ovators....

S400s are great for smaller rooms and are happy being driven either by an integrated (e.g. SN2) or a good pre-power combo (in my case NAP 250DR).  S600s are supposedly much happier in larger settings.

As to their sound signature - my S400s are probably one of the most transparent and fastest speakers I've heard. There is something resembling a sound signature of Quad ESL63s to them. They grately reward when being driven hard
I can appreciate Ovators may not be everyone's cup of tea - but to my ears - they are simply stunning.

Few observations on runnign in and set up: they need an absolute eternity to come on song - I bought an ex-demo set and it took them nearly a month before they loosened up. Almost no toe-in is required and using dedicated NAIM Ovators plugs is very beneficial.

Posted on: 24 April 2017 by Ardbeg10y

Slightly under 50 days, and Ovators will be at my place. Looking forward to that.

Posted on: 24 April 2017 by joerand
Adam Zielinski posted:

S400s are great for smaller rooms and are happy being driven either by an integrated (e.g. SN2) or a good pre-power combo (in my case NAP 250DR).

My room is on the smallish side - 14x16 feet, semi-open and I'm using a 200-watt Plinius Hautonga integrated. For the time the Ovators cabinet size is a bit imposing compared to the relatively diminutive Totem Sttafs, but that's a visual adjustment and can work over time. As far as a sonic fit into my room, the Ovators are appropriate. They do a range of volumes well.

Adam Zielinski posted:

As to their sound signature - my S400s are probably one of the most transparent and fastest speakers I've heard.

No doubt. Love the 400s bass articulation. Tight, fast with great resolution and clarity. The vocals are pretty much spelled-out in front of you, but I'm still not sure I need the closed captioning in my face .

Adam Zielinski posted:

Few observations on runnign in and set up: they need an absolute eternity to come on song - I bought an ex-demo set and it took them nearly a month before they loosened up. Almost no toe-in is required

I've got a used pair - seems a given with Ovators at this time. I spent the first two hours toying with placement and toe-in and feel like I'm in a good place. My wife's completely unsolicited comment of "wow, the sound is coming from the middle like the speakers aren't even there" seems to confirm the speakers are in a good place in my room. FWIW, they're toed-in.

As far as an ex-dem set loosening up? I suspect that's more to do with auditory adjustment of the listener than the speakers.

Posted on: 24 April 2017 by Massimo Bertola
DavidDever posted:

They are a remarkably good speaker on other manufacturers' electronics–a facet of the development process which is often lost or communicated less-than-effectively–and benefit greatly from proper optimization that might (at first glance) appear at odds with that of traditional Naim loudspeakers.

I apologize for having fully noticed and read this post so late. I find it interesting because in some of my 'non-Naim' moments I think that I will surely keep the S-400s and might change CD and amp. I too – in a purely instinctive way – think they could be great with other electronics too.

I am still happy to have bought them (although it was not one of my best and most clever bargains). They are beautiful, they blend in the room with supreme elegance and 'nonchalance'. What I love most in them: their midrange. It's at least as integer and rich as they say of Harbeth (I did direct comparisons); what I like least: their top end could be a little more airy and refined. But to me they are one of Naim's smarter designs. It only took me two pairs and five years to be aware of it.

Posted on: 24 April 2017 by Massimo Bertola
Bart posted:

I listened to S400's only once, for about 20 minutes, at the end of a Super Uniti, in my dealer's listening room.  I didn't like them much, but such are speakers and preferences.

Bart,

is it possible that what you didn't like was the SuperUniti? The first time I heard the S-400s was at the last edition of the TopAudio In Milan, I think 2012. They were driven by a UnitiLite (a machine I love, and consider highly) while the SuperUniti is something I once owned, sold in a week and wouldn't want for free if I needed something to amplify my TV. Such are amps and preferences...

Best

Max

 

Posted on: 24 April 2017 by Drewy

The s400s need more than a Superuniti to really open up. I started with a SU with mine and are now being gripped by a 300dr. 

Posted on: 24 April 2017 by Ardbeg10y

I think it is most important to have your source being very good. I had some experiences with either badly recorded or overcompressed music and if your Naim setup is setup correctly, it mercylessly reveals this. Given the comparisons with electrostatic loudspeakers, I'm not surprised that especially Ovators do this.

Max currently has a well balanced setup: the CDX2, SuperNait and Ovators. Just perfect.

I'm sure that if your sources are good, the 300dr will bring them to another level - but at a price.

I've been running on a Nait 5 for some days now, and am happy. My SuperNait is on holiday for a while ...

Posted on: 24 April 2017 by ChrisSU
Drewy posted:

The s400s need more than a Superuniti to really open up. I started with a SU with mine and are now being gripped by a 300dr. 

I guess you could say that about any speaker....

Posted on: 24 April 2017 by Drewy
ChrisSU posted:
Drewy posted:

The s400s need more than a Superuniti to really open up. I started with a SU with mine and are now being gripped by a 300dr. 

I guess you could say that about any speaker....

I guess I could but I'm convinced the Ovators are not ideally suited to the Uniti range. Personal experience.

Posted on: 25 April 2017 by Simon_H

I'm really hoping that the Nova will be an improvement over the Superuniti and will be able to drive my S400 with some authority.  My XS does well but I am left wondering occasionally what would I get by going higher up the tree, SN would be good but is it too small of a step and do I need to go pre-power?  Probably, but back to the Nova I also need to replace my DAC and an all-in-one would achieve that plus reduce box count and give me options for different locations in the room, so is tempting.  The waiting is seems interminable...

Posted on: 26 April 2017 by Christopher_M
Simon_H posted:

I'm really hoping that the Nova will be an improvement over the Superuniti and will be able to drive my S400 with some authority.   My XS does well....

Just as Naim always said, despite doubters.

C.

Posted on: 27 April 2017 by Massimo Bertola

We want names.