Does anyone use NAC 272 without XPS?

Mayor West posted:

Forgive me if it's already been done but what's the consensus of 272/XPSDR/250DR against 272/300DR?

Source first logic would suggest the former. There are some with large speakers who may find the 300 option better, so there is a horses for courses element to it. 

I also agree with the approach of not auditioning things beyond my budget:  Three reasons...

1   This isn't my only use for elective spending, and this could take funds better used elsewhere.
2   It would make me less satisfied with what I currently have
3   I don't consider it morally appropriate to get a dealer to set up a demo for something I have no intention of buying (but trade shows are a different matter).

On the other hand the last bit of equipment I bought I didn't even audition at all, and it's been a fantastic success - it was a s/h NAP300 recently re-capped and upgraded to DR spec all for £4k (I'd been considering a NAP250DR at £3k6, so the 300(DR) for just a bit more was too good to miss).

Hungryhalibut posted:

Mayor West posted:

Forgive me if it's already been done but what's the consensus of 272/XPSDR/250DR against 272/300DR?

Source first logic would suggest the former. There are some with large speakers who may find the 300 option better, so there is a horses for courses element to it. 

I think I'd agree but for a different reason; I don't always agree with Source First at any cost however...

The 250DR is a damn good power amp and unless (as HH says) the speakers are exceptionally difficult to drive, it will match the sonic quality of the 272/XPSDR producing a nicely balanced system.  Without the XPSDR the 272 would be a step down from the 300 and it would be the limiting factor, you then won't see as much benefit from the 300DR (over the 250DR) as a result of this.

With the XPS DR on the 272, then the 300DR becomes the icing on the cake providing that bit more control and finesse, by no means a 'must have' upgrade, but worthwhile none the less:  The 272+XPSDR can easily live with a 300DR.

Huge posted

The 250DR is a damn good power amp and unless (as HH says) the speakers are exceptionally difficult to drive, it will match the sonic quality of the 272/XPSDR producing a nicely balanced system.  Without the XPSDR the 272 would be a step down from the 300 and it would be the limiting factor, you then won't see as much benefit from the 300DR (over the 250DR) as a result of this.

With the XPS DR on the 272, then the 300DR becomes the icing on the cake providing that bit more control and finesse, by no means a 'must have' upgrade, but worthwhile none the less:  The 272+XPSDR can easily live with a 300DR.

Agree, but judging from my experience on Thursday when auditioning this setup with ProAc K6s, whilst the 250DR sounded exceptionally good, the 300DR was a complete step up in terms of grip, control and detail. You really do tend to get what you pay for, and I definitely do not, certainly in this instance, subscribe to the 'source first' approach, purely on the basis of what my ears tell me. Were an improved 272 to come along eventually (I have my doubts that it would be a single box replacement) that may make full use of the 555PS and 300DR's capabilities, then happy days, a bonus! Until then if my chosen system is regarded as unbalanced in terms of source, well I can live with that.

source first still applies, your ears deceive you 

I tried my vinyl into 282/HCDR/250DR and then same song, same vinyl into 272/250DR.

To my ears, 300 DR cannot make up for 272 to 282/HCDR.

282/HCDR is just so much better than bare 272. 

Sorry everyone, I report what I hear.

and then source first

When I first heard Dave, it was with 172/250.2/Dynaudio C2

then I asked dealer to switch to Hugo TT.

Bad language came to my mouth, the drop in quality was shocking. 

No amplifier can turn a Hugo TT into a Dave. Not a 552, not a 300 DR.

Mayor West posted:

Forgive me if it's already been done but what's the consensus of 272/XPSDR/250DR against 272/300DR?

I listened to these two options quite bit at my dealers, with easy to drive speakers. I thought the 272/300 was a bit of an untamed beast, great fun for loud party music, but ultimately lacking in refinement that the 272/XPS/250 had. In the end, I didn't buy either as I preferred an NDX based system for much the same cost/box count, but it was fun listening to them. If you're interested, I opened a thread about it at the time: https://forums.naimaudio.com/topic/is-the-272-a-mullet

FWIW - I am "slumming" with the 272/XP5 XS/250DR - I ran the 272 naked for the first 6 or so months that I had it. I just can't afford a XPS or XPS DR and a decent deal came up on an audio auction site for the XP5 XS, so I gave that a spin. It really seemed to "blacken" the background - I can only imagine what the better PS would do, but it just ain't in the cards. When I bought the original pairing, the guy also had the XPSDR at a very good price (he was selling because he had twins on the way and SWMBO had decreed "it will be so"), but I simply couldn't swing it financially - had to sell a guitar as it was to pull off what I did.

But I did not feel like I was getting poor sound running without a PS for the time I did not have it. I definitely don't think a 272 is a 282 (as some have bandied about on the forum) but it is a great product with good VFM.

Anyway, if you want to step into it and not spend as much, I thought the XP5 XS was a worthwhile upgrade for less money.

analogmusic posted:

 

...
To my ears, 300 DR cannot make up for 272 to 282/HCDR.
...

 

I don't believe anyone claimed it could, this is comparing apples and onions.

analogmusic posted:

 

...
282/HCDR is just so much better than bare 272.
...

I should hope so: Comparing a £5k8 dedicated preamp combo to half of a £3k4 streamer/preamp (so comparing £5k8 to £1k7)... Not a valid comparison!

what I am saying is what Richard Dane described as the hierarchy, each component cannot make up for information loss that came before it.

a preamp cannot make up for loss at source... and a power amp cannot make up for loss at preamp or at source or both !

That's why in ChrisSU thread "is 272 a mullet?" he finally chose NDX/282/200 instead of 272/300DR.

I would add 555PS to 272 rather than any upgrade from 250 to 300.

S3 posted:

The 272 is very accomplished "bare". For me a XPS2 (non DR) gave it additional refinement and, to my ears, circa 80% of what the XPS DR added to it (I tried both at home). Is a power supply required? I'd say no. However, if you can afford it then it's certainly worth considering as it does improve things. I didn't feel it improved it enough to justify the £3k+ that the XPS DR costs even pre-owned so I went for a used XPS2. I can always DR it later and still save over £1000.

I have to agree, the improvement is there but is it worth £3k+.. not so sure

But it also applies that each successive component can mask information that was retained by a previous component.

Good speakers can't reveal detail lost by a poor amplifier, no matter how good the source components.  It's a balance.

analogmusic posted:

source first still applies, your ears deceive you 

I tried my vinyl into 282/HCDR/250DR and then same song, same vinyl into 272/250DR.

To my ears, 300 DR cannot make up for 272 to 282/HCDR.

282/HCDR is just so much better than bare 272. 

Sorry everyone, I report what I hear.

and then source first

When I first heard Dave, it was with 172/250.2/Dynaudio C2

then I asked dealer to switch to Hugo TT.

Bad language came to my mouth, the drop in quality was shocking. 

No amplifier can turn a Hugo TT into a Dave. Not a 552, not a 300 DR.

I would go further saying 250DR is a lot wasted with 272.

With 282/HCDR is spot-on 

Agree the 272 is good value, but non as good as the separate 202 and any naim streamer.

not my quote but after numerous listenings a dealer that had a full 500 series Ovator S-800s for years this is his opinion on the N272/555PS/500DR/Sopra 3 vs 552/500.......

"You can get very close if not match that combo with Core->Naim DAC->N272/555PS. Same with CD555/2*555PS->N272/555PS. Then there’s vinyl. I think if you had vinyl sources and top CD player it may be different. No matter how good the 552 is there’s something effortless about the N272 with even XPS2DR that I thought only the 552 did. But the cables between the N272 and the 500 come into play."

Antonio1 posted:

 

...
Agree the 272 is good value, but non as good as the separate 202 and any naim streamer.

I disagree.  I did a direct comparison between the ND5 XS and the streamer section of the 272:  The 272 won comfortably.

mmmm all this talk is pushing me towards a 555ps when the 500dr arrives back from Naim Towers

ChrisSU posted:

Mayor West posted:

Forgive me if it's already been done but what's the consensus of 272/XPSDR/250DR against 272/300DR?

I listened to these two options quite bit at my dealers, with easy to drive speakers. I thought the 272/300 was a bit of an untamed beast, great fun for loud party music, but ultimately lacking in refinement that the 272/XPS/250 had. In the end, I didn't buy either as I preferred an NDX based system for much the same cost/box count, but it was fun listening to them. If you're interested, I opened a thread about it at the time: https://forums.naimaudio.com/topic/is-the-272-a-mullet

Cheers chris. I knew I'd read something about it somewhere else... I remember following the topic at the time, the outcomes of which were very interesting

greekspec2 posted:

not my quote but after numerous listenings a dealer that had a full 500 series Ovator S-800s for years this is his opinion on the N272/555PS/500DR/Sopra 3 vs 552/500.......

 

"You can get very close if not match that combo with Core->Naim DAC->N272/555PS. Same with CD555/2*555PS->N272/555PS. Then there’s vinyl. I think if you had vinyl sources and top CD player it may be different. No matter how good the 552 is there’s something effortless about the N272 with even XPS2DR that I thought only the 552 did. But the cables between the N272 and the 500 come into play."

Let me guess - he was trying to sell you the 272, and a few super lumina cables. :-)

MangoMonkey posted:

greekspec2 posted:

not my quote but after numerous listenings a dealer that had a full 500 series Ovator S-800s for years this is his opinion on the N272/555PS/500DR/Sopra 3 vs 552/500.......

 

"You can get very close if not match that combo with Core->Naim DAC->N272/555PS. Same with CD555/2*555PS->N272/555PS. Then there’s vinyl. I think if you had vinyl sources and top CD player it may be different. No matter how good the 552 is there’s something effortless about the N272 with even XPS2DR that I thought only the 552 did. But the cables between the N272 and the 500 come into play."

Let me guess - he was trying to sell you the 272, and a few super lumina cables. :-)

can`t sell me something I already have

One question: from other threads I think the consensus is that a 555 PS might be "too much" for the NDX. From comments in this thread it appears that the 555 PS is providing additional improvements on the 272 beyond what the XPS2(DR) does without an "unbalancing" effect. I find this interesting. Any ideas why? (venturing a wild guess: the 272 being both a streamer and preamp the 555 PS "juice" is more evenly distributed without overwhelming any section of the 272?)

maybe because 272 has a better and more recent DAC chip than NDX.

272 also has a floating circuit board... 

analogmusic posted:

maybe because 272 has a better and more recent DAC chip than NDX.

272 also has a floating circuit board... 

good call and other things done to it....hence why everyone is scratching there heads why it sounds so good for the selling price....add a PS and it's really no cheaper than a 282/252

N272/555PS/S-XPS Burndy-$18495usd

NAC282/Supercap-DR-$12690usd

NAC252/Supercap-DR-$19690usd

Or maybe because it's a preamp as well as a streamer, it presents a 'better' load to the 555PS?
Or maybe just a quirk of circuit design?

Other than a bigger transformer and bigger caps, I don't actually know how a 555PS differs from an XPSDR when functioning as an XPS (it has 2 more populated positions in the Burndy socket).

Mine is nude and good!...May XPS it soon but it certainly doesn't feel wanting...A very nice machine this 272!

G

GraemeH posted:

Mine is nude and good!...May XPS it soon but it certainly doesn't feel wanting...A very nice machine this 272!

G

Same here and my 272 partners the bottom end of the range the nap100 and love the sound this delivers.

GraemeH posted:

Mine is nude and good!...May XPS it soon but it certainly doesn't feel wanting...A very nice machine this 272!

G

Not using the cuddly toy PSU?