Does anyone use NAC 272 without XPS?

Huge posted:

GraemeH posted:

Mine is nude and good!...May XPS it soon but it certainly doesn't feel wanting...A very nice machine this 272!

G

Not using the cuddly toy PSU?

Not now.

G

Cloud Sauce posted:

I'm just wondering whether there are any 272 users who use them "naked", i.e. they haven't added an XPS (or XP5 I guess).

Many nice things have been said about the pre-amp / streamer, but I wonder if it's a great £3.5k product, or just a component of a great £7k product?

I use it without an external PSU it is terrific. The unit is great on it's own, I would not consider it essential to add the XPS-DR although it is certainly an avenue you can pursue to wring the most performance out of the unit. However, I tried a non-DR xps on it and it was an unremarkable/negligible improvement. I think the XPS-DR is supposed to be non-trivial, but have not A/B'd it myself.

Timmo1341 posted:

Emre posted:

Till 372 arrives 272 will be king of the hill for me, very good pre and streamer

I think 272/ xpsdr/ 250dr is a better value proposition 

I think the game play by naim is or will be :

272/xps/250 - each piece around 3k total of 10k £ - you may even add sopra 2 to this "set", they push lots of reviews of them together 

372/555/300 - each piece around 7k total of 20k £ - maybe even sopra 3? 

Makes sense to me, while I am waiting for 372 I enjoy 555/300dr with 272 which they sound better for sure but not a VFM proposition of xps/250

 

 

 

 

I think I agree(!), but sometimes you can't boil everything in life down to VFM. Let's face it, if you did there would be no luxury car market, no fine art, in fact very little of luxury or high end anything! Ultimately I think it has to boil down to what you can afford. I fully empathise with HH's 'if I can't afford it I don't audition it' approach.

I passed an hour with statement / nds / 555 with my 4 year old with me, listening trough tidal so it was not the best conditions but i left with a feeling saying my rig is not too bad vs the difference in cost, so listening expensive stuff can make you feel also good, feeling you are doing just fine

Klyde posted:

I'm using a bare 272, and even with the very revealing ATC SCM40's, it certainly doesn't sound broken. I think it's a great £3.5k streamer/pre-amp.

Thats vfm! More than enough for enjoying good music! 

DrPo posted:

One question: from other threads I think the consensus is that a 555 PS might be "too much" for the NDX. From comments in this thread it appears that the 555 PS is providing additional improvements on the 272 beyond what the XPS2(DR) does without an "unbalancing" effect. I find this interesting. Any ideas why? (venturing a wild guess: the 272 being both a streamer and preamp the 555 PS "juice" is more evenly distributed without overwhelming any section of the 272?)

I wouldn't get hung up on that. I found the 555PS 'too much' for the NDX, CDX2 and CDS3, but worked a treat on the NDAC and NDS. However others swear on the benefits of the 555PS on the NDX, CDS3 and CDX2. It is user preference.

The 272 is good, but there is ultimately a compromise in packing so much in a single box.  The lessons learnt from that and other designs are being put into the new designs of the Uniti series, but Naim will ultimately tell you (they have a nice presentation on this I saw at Salisbury) the best performance is achieved by decoupling the units... especially the preamp... hence the Classic series preamps. However if an external PSU adjusts  the performance window of the 272 to an extent you prefer the sound produced then do it.... it just might not be automatically advantageous. 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

DrPo posted:

One question: from other threads I think the consensus is that a 555 PS might be "too much" for the NDX. From comments in this thread it appears that the 555 PS is providing additional improvements on the 272 beyond what the XPS2(DR) does without an "unbalancing" effect. I find this interesting. Any ideas why? (venturing a wild guess: the 272 being both a streamer and preamp the 555 PS "juice" is more evenly distributed without overwhelming any section of the 272?)

I wouldn't get hung up on that. I found the 555PS 'too much' for the NDX, CDX2 and CDS3, but worked a treat on the NDAC and NDS. However others swear on the benefits of the 555PS on the NDX, CDS3 and CDX2. It is user preference.

The 272 is good, but there is ultimately a compromise in packing so much in a single box.  The lessons learnt from that and other designs are being put into the new designs of the Uniti series, but Naim will ultimately tell you (they have a nice presentation on this I saw at Salisbury) the best performance is achieved by decoupling the units... especially the preamp... hence the Classic series preamps. However if an external PSU adjusts  the performance window of the 272 to an extent you prefer the sound produced then do it.... it just might not be automatically advantageous. 

Isn't that precisely the point, Simon - there are no automatic advantages when seeking to upgrade hi-fi. Spending more money does not guarantee better sound to any one individual's ears. Despite what anyone says about 'source first', 'system balance or synergy' or mullets, it really boils down to how any given combination sounds to that individual in his/her home. I wouldn't ever have the effrontery to tell anyone they've wasted their money or bought the wrong product!! Whilst we all have the right to an opinion, and to recount our own experiences, we should not seek to force those views, or to pass judgement, on anyone else. Unfortunately there are one or two (certainly not you!) who seem to feel they are above those rules of behaviour. You know who you are!

Indeed, BTW, thanks for my new word of the day  - effrontery - 

Timmo1341 posted:

Unfortunately there are one or two ....who seem to feel they are above those rules of behaviour. You know who you are!

I only wish I could share your optimism, Timmo!

Chris

Huge posted:

Antonio1 posted:

 

...
Agree the 272 is good value, but non as good as the separate 202 and any naim streamer.

I disagree.  I did a direct comparison between the ND5 XS and the streamer section of the 272:  The 272 won comfortably.

Not mine, I'm afraid.

Any Naim dedicated streamer, any naim equipment tout- curt in the right context does give more along with the multiple possibility to be upgraded. Each step gets stronger and stronger (psu, pl, dac, core) like a giant. But maybe you like the 272 for its sake . Its good a product but ,be warned, it calls for simplicity, good integration of parts, not in the same way as the 'context' expressed above and  the dangerous habit for anyone wasting bigger PSU's and power amp on it , if one has a minimal knowledge of the brand, will inevitably lead to sell it and aiming at the top due to having un-exploited the rest. Or selling the latter.  That's not what it was intended for and not a system.

GraemeH posted:

Huge posted:

GraemeH posted:

Mine is nude and good!...May XPS it soon but it certainly doesn't feel wanting...A very nice machine this 272!

G

Not using the cuddly toy PSU?

Not now.

G

Interesting, I take it you find it better without the PSU?

If you're willing to share, I'd be very interested in the reasons you find it better this way.

I've just re-checked my findings for the system wrt my cuddly toy PSU.  Now the 272 is thoroughly run in, comparing it with and without the PSU, it's a lot less clear than I found when I originally did the comparison  - most interesting, thank you for prompting me to re-do the test.

(BTW, the improvement for the ND5 XS with the PSU was much more obvious!)

Looks like the stuffing has been removed from the cuddly toy 

Bare v Bear...

A loaner 555PS made me reconsider my longer term goal with the 272.

G

OK, re-dressed the cables, then I treated the Bear to a spa treatment (i.e. gave the Burndy a relaxing massage) and did a more complete comparison to the compare the 272 Bare / Bear (I like it Graeme ) 

I do again see where I get gains from the cuddly toy - no difference in PRaT, but improvements in subtle detail and differentiation of instrumental timbres allowing me more insight into many classical pieces, particularly Baroque.

So, the Bear returns to full time occupation!

With my NDX the bear does put muscle & finesse on its presentation,  its not as jaw dropping as the same PSU did to my CDX2,  but all the same positives are still there.   Re caressing & fondling cables:   I take my system & cables out for a clean once a year & always seem to get an improvement with SQ,   but I've yet to do that with only the NDX & its little buddy & have always assumed it to be a collective effect.  Massaging the 'burndy' is something I have never bought into,  the same for directionality,  but whatever.    The last clean was October & that was a complete everything out & component position change.  The little bear has since had a PL Lite inserted,  but what does a power cable do for SQ  - .     OK nothing much else to do so maybe pulling out the NDX, burndy & TXPS & going through the process might do something.     I've pulled TXPS out & removed the burndy.   Its now time to watch the boat race & will caress & fondle the cable until the dark blue victory & report back in an hour or so.   

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

DrPo posted:

One question: from other threads I think the consensus is that a 555 PS might be "too much" for the NDX. From comments in this thread it appears that the 555 PS is providing additional improvements on the 272 beyond what the XPS2(DR) does without an "unbalancing" effect. I find this interesting. Any ideas why? (venturing a wild guess: the 272 being both a streamer and preamp the 555 PS "juice" is more evenly distributed without overwhelming any section of the 272?)

I wouldn't get hung up on that. I found the 555PS 'too much' for the NDX, CDX2 and CDS3, but worked a treat on the NDAC and NDS. However others swear on the benefits of the 555PS on the NDX, CDS3 and CDX2. It is user preference.

The 272 is good, but there is ultimately a compromise in packing so much in a single box.  The lessons learnt from that and other designs are being put into the new designs of the Uniti series, but Naim will ultimately tell you (they have a nice presentation on this I saw at Salisbury) the best performance is achieved by decoupling the units... especially the preamp... hence the Classic series preamps. However if an external PSU adjusts  the performance window of the 272 to an extent you prefer the sound produced then do it.... it just might not be automatically advantageous. 

Funny how this topic crops up from time to time.  Some years ago I was considering upgrading to either a SN1 + HiCap or a 202 + 200 + HiCap + NAPSC (at a similar price point) and there was an acrimonious debate ranging on this forum over the merits of these two combination.  Some posters made exactly the same point about the compromise entailed in packing a lot into one box.  Others argued that fewer expensive cases meant more to spend on the internals and that keeping signal paths short was advantageous.  I was almost convinced the pre/power would suit me best, especially as I had an NDac which would render the internal Dac in the SN redundant, but I wanted to make up my own mind and my kind local dealer obliged by lending me a well-run-in set of all of these boxes to play with over the Christmas holiday.  As you can imagine, I took the opportunity to try every possible combination with all my favourite types of music.  I listen to a lot of choral music and it was a recording of the Cambridge Singers performing a capella in the Lady Chapel of Ely Cathedral that finally made me choose the integrated amp.  This was not to say that the pre-power was worse, more that the two combinations offered different presentations.  The 202/200 had an airiness and delicacy that made it easy to pick out individual singers, a conductor's view, if you like.  The reason I preferred (and eventually bought) the SN1 was that with that amp the chorus came together as a group and, more significantly, the acoustic of the wonderful venue for the recording was more convincingly conveyed and gave a stronger sense of actually being in the chapel with the chorus.  I could readily imagine another listener making a different choice.

I am sure Naim would have told me that the 200/202 was simply better, as did at least one dealer in no uncertain terms, but my ears told me differently and I was not alone in making that choice.  Ultimately, whilst engineering considerations are clearly important to designers, if you are fundamentally interested in the musical experience, then ears and personal taste have to be the ultimate arbiter.  It's the purchaser's money after all.

Incidentally, when I was comparing the SN1 and 200/202 I still had my previous amp, a Nait XS and I took the opportunity of comparing my own FlatCap with the HiCap I had borrowed from the dealer on the XS as well as on the SN.  Like some but not all others, I found the HiCap made the XS too frenetic for my taste, impressive perhaps but not realistic, but there was no contest when applied to the SN.  So, I agree with Simon that a PS can be "too much" for some components and some listeners and of course, that preferences will vary.

Roger

I found naked 272 very good ..... and could not understand how a psu could make any difference. Then I bought a sh 555ps and connected it omg it made a huge difference .... the 272 is a win win bit of kit.

Antonio1 posted:

analogmusic posted:

source first still applies, your ears deceive you 

I tried my vinyl into 282/HCDR/250DR and then same song, same vinyl into 272/250DR.

To my ears, 300 DR cannot make up for 272 to 282/HCDR.

282/HCDR is just so much better than bare 272. 

Sorry everyone, I report what I hear.

and then source first

When I first heard Dave, it was with 172/250.2/Dynaudio C2

then I asked dealer to switch to Hugo TT.

Bad language came to my mouth, the drop in quality was shocking. 

No amplifier can turn a Hugo TT into a Dave. Not a 552, not a 300 DR.

I would go further saying 250DR is a lot wasted with 272.

With 282/HCDR is spot-on 

Agree the 272 is good value, but non as good as the separate 202 and any naim streamer.

Then you obviously know better than some Naim staff.  At last year's Acoustica show, when I was considering purchasing a 272, I fell into conversation with a Naim staffer who strongly advocated getting no less than a 300DR as my power amp of choice.  As you can see from my profile after auditioning and discussion with the dealer, I eventually settled for a 250DR.

Incidentally, you clearly have strongly held views on the 272, since you contribute to every thread on the subject.  I would find it interesting to know what gear you have as there is nothing listed on your profile.  Even better, would be some information on the auditions you have undertaken that led you to your views on the 272.  I presume you have directly compared it at least with ND5XS/202 to arrive at your conclusion.

Roger

Mike-B posted:

With my NDX the bear does put muscle & finesse on its presentation,  its not as jaw dropping as the same PSU did to my CDX2,  but all the same positives are still there.   Re caressing & fondling cables:   .....................    & will caress & fondle the cable until the dark blue victory & report back in an hour or so.   

My burndy caressing & redressing has not done anything to SQ that I can detect,  probably because it was still OK after last October's strip out.  However I did take time & massage the cable more than before & for the first time I teased the three internal screened cores into straight runs from end to end,  this enabled an easy less stressed 'feel' to the bend just after the NDX burndy plug.  I need to own up to not being a true burndy believer,  the XPS cable carries power only, x6 rails of 22v 15v & 10v & I don't accept that such a cable is affected by de-stressing & probably doesn't give a hoot about touching walls & floors.   The 555 burndys that carry both power & signal might well be so affected,  & thats probably where this de-stress thing started from, but whatever nice tidy & correctly fitted cables does it for me.  

Good win for Oxford & hats off to Cambridge they lost big time in the first mile but hung on around the Surrey bend & lost nothing on the final 2 miles.   

In my case the differences were between the 272 bare and the 272 supplied by the Bear.

The dressing consisted of easing a bend into the cable so it no longer touches a desk that's behind the HiFi rack, I have no particular indication that it improved the sound, but it's neater that way (engineer's version of OCD).

Peakman posted:

Antonio1 posted:

analogmusic posted:

source first still applies, your ears deceive you 

I tried my vinyl into 282/HCDR/250DR and then same song, same vinyl into 272/250DR.

To my ears, 300 DR cannot make up for 272 to 282/HCDR.

282/HCDR is just so much better than bare 272. 

Sorry everyone, I report what I hear.

and then source first

When I first heard Dave, it was with 172/250.2/Dynaudio C2

then I asked dealer to switch to Hugo TT.

Bad language came to my mouth, the drop in quality was shocking. 

No amplifier can turn a Hugo TT into a Dave. Not a 552, not a 300 DR.

I would go further saying 250DR is a lot wasted with 272.

With 282/HCDR is spot-on 

Agree the 272 is good value, but non as good as the separate 202 and any naim streamer.

Then you obviously know better than some Naim staff.  At last year's Acoustica show, when I was considering purchasing a 272, I fell into conversation with a Naim staffer who strongly advocated getting no less than a 300DR as my power amp of choice.  As you can see from my profile after auditioning and discussion with the dealer, I eventually settled for a 250DR.

Incidentally, you clearly have strongly held views on the 272, since you contribute to every thread on the subject.  I would find it interesting to know what gear you have as there is nothing listed on your profile.  Even better, would be some information on the auditions you have undertaken that led you to your views on the 272.  I presume you have directly compared it at least with ND5XS/202 to arrive at your conclusion.

Roger

You speak for me also, Roger. Language issues notwithstanding, I find the arrogance expressed in some of these posts quite breathtaking! Even were he to evidence an unmatched expertise in all things Naim, his judgemental approach would still be unjustified and unpleasant. Like quite a few others on this forum I have listened carefully to the effects of the 555PS on the NAC 272, powered by the NAP 300DR, and found the sound produced to be quite stunning. Whilst I can accept that another may not hear these effects and interpret them as I do, what I thoroughly resent is a pronouncement that I am, in some way, wrong or misguided!

Huge posted:

GraemeH posted:

Huge posted:

GraemeH posted:

Mine is nude and good!...May XPS it soon but it certainly doesn't feel wanting...A very nice machine this 272!

G

Not using the cuddly toy PSU?

Not now.

G

 

 

(BTW, the improvement for the ND5 XS with the PSU was much more obvious!)

I hope to find this out myself. I had acquired a NDX but sold that off and purchased a ND5/XS 2 for the same money. Adding a PSU to the ND5 and possibly a Flatcap XS to the XS 2. However some reading is leaving me a bit confused about the benefits of FC on XS 2. 

The separation of the preamp from the power supply is key to getting the best performance..... This what I heard when I compared 272 to a 282/HCDR/NAPSC with the same source, 250DR and same speakers, cable.

There was a glare to the music in 272 that is just absent on the 282, the soundstage of 272 is constrained compared to 282, and by comparison on a 282 music floats out of the speakers, it just doesn't on a bare 272. Music also has more engagement on a 282.

For me personally , the minimum for a 272 is XPS DR. 

Peakman posted:

Antonio1 posted:

analogmusic posted:

source first still applies, your ears deceive you 

I tried my vinyl into 282/HCDR/250DR and then same song, same vinyl into 272/250DR.

To my ears, 300 DR cannot make up for 272 to 282/HCDR.

282/HCDR is just so much better than bare 272. 

Sorry everyone, I report what I hear.

and then source first

When I first heard Dave, it was with 172/250.2/Dynaudio C2

then I asked dealer to switch to Hugo TT.

Bad language came to my mouth, the drop in quality was shocking. 

No amplifier can turn a Hugo TT into a Dave. Not a 552, not a 300 DR.

I would go further saying 250DR is a lot wasted with 272.

With 282/HCDR is spot-on 

Agree the 272 is good value, but non as good as the separate 202 and any naim streamer.

Then you obviously know better than some Naim staff.  At last year's Acoustica show, when I was considering purchasing a 272, I fell into conversation with a Naim staffer who strongly advocated getting no less than a 300DR as my power amp of choice.  As you can see from my profile after auditioning and discussion with the dealer, I eventually settled for a 250DR.

Incidentally, you clearly have strongly held views on the 272, since you contribute to every thread on the subject.  I would find it interesting to know what gear you have as there is nothing listed on your profile.  Even better, would be some information on the auditions you have undertaken that led you to your views on the 272.  I presume you have directly compared it at least with ND5XS/202 to arrive at your conclusion.

Roger

You speak for me also, Roger. Language issues notwithstanding, I find the arrogance expressed in some of these posts quite breathtaking! Even were he to evidence an unmatched expertise in all things Naim, his judgemental approach would still be unjustified and unpleasant. Like quite a few others on this forum I have listened carefully to the effects of the 555PS on the NAC 272, powered by the NAP 300DR, and found the sound produced to be quite stunning. Whilst I can accept that another may not hear these effects and interpret them as I do, what I thoroughly resent is a pronouncement that I am, in some way, wrong or misguided!

+1. How anyone cannot hear the gifted ability of the recent 272 with a high spec (555) PS and power amp is quite beyond me. The 272 is a recent model, and this matters in the R and D plan. So I guess the fact I am partnering it with the NAP500DR in 2017 makes me stupid :-)

analogmusic posted:

The separation of the preamp from the power supply is key to getting the best performance..... This what I heard when I compared 272 to a 282/HCDR/NAPSC with the same source, 250DR and same speakers, cable.

There was a glare to the music in 272 that is just absent on the 282, the soundstage of 272 is constrained compared to 282, and by comparison on a 282 music floats out of the speakers, it just doesn't on a bare 272. Music also has more engagement on a 282.

For me personally , the minimum for a 272 is XPS DR. 

Hi Ali, but no one should be surprised about this (though one man's glare is another man's focus) . The N272 and N172 are great sources. They offer convenience, value for money and much of the Naim DNA.. but they are ultimately going to be limited when compared to decoupled separates - and talk to Naim at Salisbury and they can explain quite specifically why - even if you cant trust your ears. It doesn't take away from the performance, but simply one has to be realistic about  expectations compared to separates. Naim have an interesting presentation on their 'DNA' - and the aim is for component seperation on pure SQ terms. However the aim is to appeal to a wider market at their respective price points  hence the Unitis, hybrids and obviously the Mu-so and Qb. (and I am told by Naim the N272 has been very  successful).  However times move on and development continues with the combined and integrated units, and the more Naim do it the more they learn. One of the big recent challenges has been digital interference from circuity affecting sensitive analogue electronics, and I understand that in the the new Uniti series (when we finally see them in the wild) that much new development in this area has been applied. We may well see some of this trickle up/down/across to new classic series components..... fingers crossed

analogmusic posted:

The separation of the preamp from the power supply is key to getting the best performance..... This what I heard when I compared 272 to a 282/HCDR/NAPSC with the same source, 250DR and same speakers, cable.

There was a glare to the music in 272 that is just absent on the 282, the soundstage of 272 is constrained compared to 282, and by comparison on a 282 music floats out of the speakers, it just doesn't on a bare 272. Music also has more engagement on a 282.

For me personally , the minimum for a 272 is XPS DR. 

My amp / speaker / room balance is such that it's not prone to glare, so that's not going to be a problem for me; and I'm not bothered by soundstage (or lack thereof), so again no problem, so no faults that compromise musical engagement.  I think system synergy and personal taste  and sensitivities has a part to play here.  For me, the important differences are vocal readability, fine detail and instrumental timbres, and adding an external PSU improves these on the 272.

From my recent experience though, during 'running in' these improve dramatically when running bare and the gains from the external PSU become less noticeable.

analogmusic, when you did the comparison, was the 272 fully run in?
Actually Naim also say that the 272 needs an external PSU to start to get somewhere close to a 282; and even then the 282 + HiCapDR is still noticeably better.

A more pertinent question is "Is the bare 272 better than a ND5 XS / NAC202 combination (without putting a HiCap on the 202)?"
And in my view (or rather to my ears ) the answer is "Yes, substantially".