Does anyone use NAC 272 without XPS?

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Hi Ali, but no one should be surprised about this (though one man's glare is another man's focus) . The N272 and N172 are great sources. They offer convenience, value for money and much of the Naim DNA.. but they are ultimately going to be limited when compared to decoupled separates - and talk to Naim at Salisbury and they can explain quite specifically why - even if you cant trust your ears. It doesn't take away from the performance, but simply one has to be realistic about  expectations compared to separates. Naim have an interesting presentation on their 'DNA' - and the aim is for component seperation on pure SQ terms. However the aim is to appeal to a wider market at their respective price points  hence the Unitis, hybrids and obviously the Mu-so and Qb. (and I am told by Naim the N272 has been very  successful).  However times move on and development continues with the combined and integrated units, and the more Naim do it the more they learn. One of the big recent challenges has been digital interference from circuity affecting sensitive analogue electronics, and I understand that in the the new Uniti series (when we finally see them in the wild) that much new development in this area has been applied. We may well see some of this trickle up/down/across to new classic series components..... fingers crossed

I think quite a lot was learnt from the reviewing the Uniti and SU when designing the 172, even more was learnt while developing the 172 and then applied in the 272.  Of course more still was learnt then and applied to the new Uniti range.

One of the things I like about Naim is that the're always striving for improvement, in all sectors of the market.

the 272 that I heard is well run in, belongs to a friend who plays it a few hours a day for the last year.

 I'm not saying 272 is bad, but one should add an XPS DR to it.

Yes it means a lot more money, but it is worth it.

analogmusic posted:

the 272 that I heard is well run in, belongs to a friend who plays it a few hours a day for the last year.

 

I'm not saying 272 is bad, but one should add an XPS DR to it.

Yes I'd agree with that, and for so many SQ reasons!

But bare it's still good value in systems that are less revealing than 282 / 250 class amplification; if you use a 250 or above, then the 272 deserves an XPS.

My naked 272 feeds a 250.2 non dr. I've only recently upgraded from a Superuniti and am enjoying it immensely. My questions are:

should i dr the 250 before upgrading the power supply?

would an xps upgrade give less benefit on my 272 with power line and dedicated spur (already have these) than on a totally naked 272

thanks in advance for your advice.

ps I am quite relaxed about just enjoying the music in the meantime.

I have direct experience and extended ownership of; CD3, CDX/XPS, CDS3/555PS, ND5XS, HDX&NDX with NDAC/555PS, Hugo, Hugo TT, 250, 250.2, 135's, 250DR, SN2, 82, 52, 252, 282/SCAP, 202/HCDR...and probably some I have forgotten over the last 25 years.

Ime the 272 is a groundbreaking product for Naim. It sounds so musically coherent and balanced. The price - to me - is irrelevant.

Very enjoyable in fact.

G

I'd DR the 250 first, solely because I don't like the 250.2. 

As to the XPS, you should get more difference as you already have a spur and a Powerline. 

There is something of a tall poppy syndrome around the 272. It's become so popular that it's bound to get slagged off by some, whether justifiably or not. I've had my 272 for nearly two years now and still rate it just as highly as when I first got it. I just stick music on and enjoy it, and don't think about the system at all. Of course it would be better with a 555PS, or course it would be better with a 300. But that's really not the point. 

Hmmm I don't think it's tall poppy syndrome....

I still think the 272 is a tremendous product as it allows you to get a taste of the hi-end Naim sound at a very sensible price, and I really wanted 272 to perform at my 282 level (so that I could buy one too)

But it doesn't, sadly, and I will be keeping my 282 as I already have HCDR.

If I had a 272 though, I would buy an XPS-DR without delay 

Analog, did you perform this A/B test with a PS555/272 and using the same (very good) power amp?

 I didn't get the chance yet to do this with 555.

I'm not particularly motivated to find out either as PS555 is freakin expensive and 282 sounds quite good to me with HCDR.

272 may have older LM317 regulators, and HCDR (and XPS DR) have a superior DR regulator.... the DR does dramatically lower the noise floor (30 times more than LM317 according to Naim), this is quite audible.

 would be nice if anyone from Naim can confirm which regulators bare 272 uses?

Bare (£3k4) it comfortably beats ND5 XS / NAC202 (£4k5)

With an XPS (£7k2 total) on the streaming side it comes very close to NDX / NAC282 + HicapDR (£9k5 total)

OK, it loses a little more on the analogue side here, but for most people buying a 272, it's the streaming side that's important and on the steaming side there will be some who prefer one and some who prefer the other.  Although I haven't heard it, I assume that adding an XPS to the NDX would give it a clear advantage, but that raises it to £13k total.

However once you get to 272 + XPS, that's the end of the road.  A very good position, but an end nevertheless; however that road started at £3k4, whereas the NDX 282 route starts at a LOT higher entry price (unless you're going to have to sell boxes to upgrade).  Horses for courses.

PS555 internal picture. Compare size of PS555 transformer and also capacitors to the 272 internal PSU.

A bigger transformer has a lower impedance (good for music, more flow, less fatigue, more PRAT), and the much bigger capacitors mean also more refinement, more tight/punchy bass, much bigger soundstage in all directions, more groove, more emotion...

Just go for it ! 

Huge posted:

 

However once you get to 272 + XPS, that's the end of the road.  

well, for the money it is a very good place to be.

this is a Naim supercap, the best PSU that can be connected to 282.

The PS555 seems bigger and better than the Supercap, so I wouldn't like to bet on 282/SCDR winning against 272/555

I am not at all motivated to find out either ... but if I had a 272, I would get a PS555 DR, no doubts about that purchase 

Analog +1. Yes, thanks, that just about sums it up. You get what you pay for. Naim know what they are doing. For me, digital comes first because its practical, not because it sounds the best, and I don't think I have reached the end of the road with the 272. After the 500dr gets here I am (eventually) going to swop the XPS DR out...... 

After this, I'm seriously considering a s/h 555PS!

Has anyone used the non DR version with a 272, the DR upgrade + service cost for the 555PS is about £2k3.

People always complain that the Flatcap is just full of air; you certainly can't say that of the 555PS!   

I first used a bare 272 with a pair of TP MB100 monoblocs and was very pleased with the way it sounded. Then came an unmissable opportunity to change the MB100's for a NAP300. Wow, money well spent.

After a few months I added a XPS-DR to the 272 and it really raised its game. So much more detail and delicate balance.

Six months later another 'unmissable' event and I swapped out the XPS-DR for a 555-DR. Very high expectations and very disappointed. What's going on here? System has great balance but the 555 didn't add much. Much gnashing of teeth, cold sweats, and staring at my depleted bank account.

Hold steady. Have faith. Cross fingers.

Several weeks later...holy cow! Where did all that music come from? Performances are in the room, deep silence where needed, clarity, decay, timbre. All there in fabulous detail. Playing louder than ever before. No hardness, just more performance.

Was it a good investment. You bet. The 272/555-DR/300 is a very fine combo.

actually 272 owners are quite lucky to be able to connect a PS555DR !

The SupercapDR, as good as it is, isn't quite as impressive as a PS555 DR...

intothevoid - maybe the 555dr ps 'bed in period' is not surprising, and could be long, due to the amount of electronics/size of transformer just as with the eg nap500

pjb_4465 posted:

intothevoid - maybe the 555dr ps 'bed in period' is not surprising, and could be long, due to the amount of electronics/size of transformer just as with the eg nap500

It obviously took time to settle down and, just as importantly, for me to 'hear'. 

And it keeps on giving; just this weekend I noticed a marked and welcome jump in soundstage and vocal definition after I tinkered with cable dressing.

To me,one of the BIG reasons that i bought the 272,was the fact that i can add the 555 dr to it if i want,i am demoing the xps dr starting next weekend,but looking at the photo's of the 555,i can see why it does what people claim...and i might hold off for the 555,unless the xps really blows me away.Analog,how about posting a photo of the inside of the XPS DR,i still struggle posting pics.

intothevoid posted:

I first used a bare 272 with a pair of TP MB100 monoblocs and was very pleased with the way it sounded. Then came an unmissable opportunity to change the MB100's for a NAP300. Wow, money well spent.

After a few months I added a XPS-DR to the 272 and it really raised its game. So much more detail and delicate balance.

Six months later another 'unmissable' event and I swapped out the XPS-DR for a 555-DR. Very high expectations and very disappointed. What's going on here? System has great balance but the 555 didn't add much. Much gnashing of teeth, cold sweats, and staring at my depleted bank account.

Hold steady. Have faith. Cross fingers.

Several weeks later...holy cow! Where did all that music come from? Performances are in the room, deep silence where needed, clarity, decay, timbre. All there in fabulous detail. Playing louder than ever before. No hardness, just more performance.

Was it a good investment. You bet. The 272/555-DR/300 is a very fine combo.

 

 

I experienced the same as you......biggest thing I noticed was the bass,timing  and voice extension it gave when I first got mine but when my 300DR sells hello 500DR has a new home.

XPS- DR

analogmusic posted:

XPS- DR

I speak on behalf my own .....when I demoed the N272/XPS-DR with a 250DR and 500 it made some improvement but I then heard the 555PS plugged in and 30secs made up my mind, either I leave it bare or get a 555PS-DR and hense what I did not knocking the XPS-DR 

I'm sure a Nait 2 runs circles around it. Even upside down.

A year ago, the XPS DR was the best thing to get for the N272, and now it is apparently the 555PS.

What's changed?