Super Lumina vs HiLine

8-9 months to run in? That is really quite excessive, especially considering that the Vertere cables do not need this kind of running in 

Below a very interesting article about the why & how of cable break-in written by George Cardass, imo one of the true pioneers in high-end audio cables.

The article is pretty neutral written, not a hands down Cardass sales-pitch. He also mentions Bill Low from Audioquest.

Richard

Cable Break-in

There are many factors that make cable break-in necessary and many reasons why the results vary. If you measure a new cable with a voltmeter you will see a standing voltage because good dielectrics make poor conductors. They hold a charge much like a rubbed cat’s fur on a dry day. It takes a while for this charge to equalize in the cable. Better cables often take longer to break-in. The best "air dielectric" techniques, such as PFA tube construction, have large non-conductive surfaces to hold charge, much like the cat on a dry day.

Cables that do not have time to settle, such as musical instrument and microphone cables, often use conductive dielectrics like rubber or carbonized cotton to get around the problem. This dramatically reduces microphonics and settling time, but the other dielectric characteristics of these insulators are poor and they do not qualify sonically for high-end cables. Developing non-destructive techniques for reducing and equalizing the charge in excellent dielectric is a challenge in high end cables.
The high input impedance necessary in audio equipment makes uneven dielectric charge a factor. One reason settling time takes so long is we are linking the charge with mechanical stress/strain relationships. The physical make up of a cable is changed slightly by the charge and visa versa. It is like electrically charging the cat. The physical make up of the cat is changed by the charge. It is "frizzed" and the charge makes it's hair stand on end. "PFA Cats", cables and their dielectric, take longer to loose this charge and reach physical homeostasis.

The better the dielectric's insulation, the longer it takes to settle. A charge can come from simply moving the cable (Piezoelectric effect and simple friction), high voltage testing during manufacture, etc. Cable that has a standing charge is measurably more microphonic and an uneven distribution of the charge causes something akin to structural return loss in a rising impedance system. When I took steps to eliminate these problems, break-in time was reduced and the cable sounded generally better. I know Bill Low at Audioquest has also taken steps to minimize this problem.

Mechanical stress is the root of a lot of the break-in phenomenon and it is not just a factor with cables. As a rule, companies set up audition rooms at high end audio shows a couple of days ahead of time to let them break in. The first day the sound is usually bad and it is very stressful. The last day sounds great. Mechanical stress in speaker cables, speaker cabinets, even the walls of the room, must be relaxed in order for the system to sound its best. This is the same phenomenon we experience in musical instruments. They sound much better after they have been played. Many musicians leave their instruments in front of a stereo that is playing to get them to warm up. This is very effective with a new guitar. Pianos are a stress and strain nightmare. Any change, even in temperature or humidity, will degrade their sound. A precisely tuned stereo system is similar.

You never really get all the way there, you sort of keep halving the distance to zero. Some charge is always retained. It is generally in the MV range in a well settled cable. Triboelectric noise in a cable is a function of stress and retained charge, which a good cable will release with both time and use. How much time and use is dependent on the design of the cable, materials used, treatment of the conductors during manufacture, etc.

There are many small tricks and ways of dealing with the problem. Years ago, I began using PFA tube "air dielectric" construction and the charge on the surface of the tubes became a real issue. I developed a fluid that adds a very slight conductivity to the surface of the dielectric. Treated cables actually have a better measured dissipation factor and the sound of the cables improved substantially. It had been observed in mid eighties that many cables could be improved by wiping them with a anti-static cloth. Getting something to stick to PFA was the real challenge. We now use an anti-static fluid in all our cables and anti-static additives in the final jacketing material. This attention to charge has reduced break-in time and in general made the cable sound substantially better. This is due to the reduction of overall charge in the cable and the equalization of the distributed charge on the surface of conductor jacket.

It seems there are many infinitesimal factors that add up. Overtime you find one leads down a path to another. In short, if a dielectric surface in a cable has a high or uneven charge which dissipates with time or use, triboelectric and other noise in the cable will also reduce with time and use. This is the essence of break-in
A note of caution. Moving a cable will, to some degree, traumatize it. The amount of disturbance is relative to the materials used, the cable's design and the amount of disturbance. Keeping a very low level signal in the cable at all times helps. At a show, where time is short, you never turn the system off. I also believe the use of degaussing sweeps, such as on the Cardas Frequency Sweep and Burn-In Record (side 1, cut 2a) helps.

A small amount of energy is retained in the stored mechanical stress of the cable. As the cable relaxes, a certain amount of the charge is released, like in an electroscope. This is the electromechanical connection.

Many factors relating to a cable's break-in are found in the sonic character or signature of a cable. If we look closely at dielectrics we find a similar situation. The dielectric actually changes slightly as it charges and its dissipation factor is linked to its hardness. In part these changes are evidenced in the standing charge of the cable. A new cable, out of the bag, will have a standing charge when uncoiled. It can have as much as several hundred millivolts. If the cable is left at rest it will soon drop to under one hundred, but it will takes days of use in the system to fall to the teens and it never quite reaches zero. These standing charges appear particularly significant in low level interconnects to preamps with high impedance inputs.

The interaction of mechanical and electrical stress/strain variables in a cable are integral with the break-in, as well as the resonance of the cable. Many of the variables are lumped into a general category called triboelectric noise. Noise is generated in a cable as a function of the variations between the components of the cable. If a cable is flexed, moved, charged, or changed in any way, it will be a while before it is relaxed again. The symmetry of the cable's construction is a big factor here. Very careful design and execution by the manufacturer helps a lot. Very straight forward designs can be greatly improved with the careful choice of materials and symmetrical construction. Audioquest has built a large and successful high-end cable company around these principals.

The basic rules for the interaction of mechanical and electrical stress/strain variables holds true, regardless of scale or medium. Cables, cats, pianos and rooms all need to relax in order to be at their best. Constant attention to physical and environmental conditions, frequent use and the degaussing of a system help it achieve and maintain a relaxed state.

A note on breaking in box speakers, a process which seems to take forever. When I want to speed up the break-in process, I place the speakers face to face, with one speaker wired out of phase and play a surf CD through them. After about a week, I place them in their normal listening position and continue the process for three more days. After that, I play a degaussing sweep a few times. Then it is just a matter of playing music and giving them time.

Dark Bear thank you.

Well, Lo and behold. Came home tonight and noted the SL cable was indeed touching the floor. I managed to loop it in a way that just got it off the floor. Listened to check if any difference occurred. All that musical emotion that was missing showed up in no uncertain terms. I put the cable back to touching the floor and blandness returned. Reverted to off the floor and  X factor returned.

I have now got to work out a way of getting it to avoid the back wall and ideally other cables as I now suspect it is going to bear fruit.

really quite stunned by the difference it made.

Will feedback what happens when I work out how on earth to give it room to avoid all the aforementioned in such a busy small space.

cheers

Norman

Norman, glad you've sorted the problem.

Good you are getting somewhere more positive with the demo.

It was Paul S of Naim that told me to get my home demo prototype SL cable off the floor when I was getting initial mixed results.

DB.

so SL cable won't work well if it touches the floor?

why is that?

It won't stop me buying it, but I must say this is quite strange. 

Naim have gone to all that trouble to place anti-vibration damping rings on the plugs - then placing it on the floor defeats this. I find all the cables like to be off the floor - The Burndy power cables really flatten the performance when they touch the floor too.

DB.

my NACA5 touches the floor....? is that an issue?

Absolutely. Total disaster. Hang it from the ceiling with sky hooks. 

Dig a hole in the floor so the cables have somewhere to dangle : )

Hi Analoguemusic,

I kind of get it in terms of the whole microphony thing but I was surprised at the difference it made.

The wee instruction booklet that comes with it does state you should avoid other cables etc. That is a pretty tall order given the number of cables looping around behind the average equipment rack.

But after last night it seems that it is sensitive to it's environment. I am going to muck around further tonight trying to work out a way of organising all the various cables and bits to give the SL as clear a path and fewest touch points as possible.

Of course this now begs the question for SL speaker cable owners in terms of what does that mean for SL speaker cables when there really is no option for them having to touch the floor over several metres.

I don't have  an answer to that of course as I don't have any.

Cheers Norman

Ok Thank you Darke Bear and Norman for feedback

I will pay attention to this in my own setup from now on.

Interesting how touching the floor can produce such an impact. Is this true also for SL speaker cables ? (which are normally placed on the floor) or do they need risers to shine ? 

Norman Clature posted:

...Of course this now begs the question for SL speaker cable owners in terms of what does that mean for SL speaker cables when there really is no option for them having to touch the floor over several metres.

I don't have  an answer to that of course as I don't have any.

It is designed differently - it likes being on a hard surface is what I found. The SL speaker cable is soft, saggy and springy and seems designed to absorb and lose vibration - given it is connected to the speakers is is obviously a good idea. The other SL interconnects are hard and seem designed not to store any vibration, but to prevent it mechanically coupling into the wire in the first place - which you can't achieve with speaker leads as they must connect to the speakers.

So it is a set of compromises engineered to get the best results I'd guess.

DB.

analogmusic posted:

my NACA5 touches the floor....? is that an issue?

Attach little magnets along it's length and place these above superconducting dishes to suspend them.  Make sure that the rooms housing the refrigeration plant (i.e. the entire rest of the house) are properly acoustically isolated from the listening room.

Another solution..play Hawkwind's "Levitation" at the start of every listening session.

Just to throw the cat among the pigeons, when I went on the Naim factory tour I noticed during the listening session at the end of the tour they had their speaker cables (SuperLumina) raised off the floor on blocks! I noticed the blocks running behind the kit but don't remember seeing them on the section of cables nearer to the speakers. We were listening to Statement into Sopra 2s.

Ummm....., I wonder. No, no, I'm not going there.

Hi,

did the playing around with cables last night. It did not go well from my point of view. Also noticed the SL lost quite a lot of everything last night regardless of what I did.

My dealer is going to come round and have a look at what could be tweaked but to be honest I am holding up very little hope of wanting to purchase the Super Lumina. He may find a way to change that view. That remains to be seen. 

I am decidedly put off by the environmental considerations required to accommodate it and ensure it works optimally. When spending that kind of money I would want to know I could be sure I wold have a consistent and lasting improvement without fear of undermining its capabilities by not having it perfectly situated in the socket and not touching anything wherever possible.

Naturally this is my specific experience thus far and others will have different experiences. But thus far I am not encouraged.

This would be the first Naim upgrade that I would have ever turned my back on so I am surprised. Maybe that will change post the visit. We shall see.

Cheers

Norman

The hiline also benefits from hanging free, being shorter helps.

Well a about 3 weeks along in this process. A visit from the dealer and a fair bit of cable repositioning which culminated in the Super Lumina being free of all other cables by dint of a fine piece of cotton attached to another cable above that just hoisted it above the cables below. And finally rearranging things so that it is away from the back wall which it was pressed against

Initially not that great. Then a day after my dealer had been around I realised that the cable was sitting several mill out at the NDS end and was full in at the 552 end. Readjusted to about 1 mill out at both ends and hey presto a whole heap of improvement to where it had been up to that point.

So theresult was an improvement in the sound by some margin and musical presentation became what I would say was equivalent with the HiLine but leaving the HiLine sounding somewhat brasher by comparison.

So I decided to take the plunge and purchase it on the basis it would only get better given the rave reviews from so many and the staunch belief of the dealer that it is vastly superior in performance to the HiLine (which I would expect) and once it had run in would produce great leaps forward.

All going well until last few days when the bass became receded and hollow sounding. Somewhat frustrating listening to the Bill Evans trio and not being able to track the wonderous bass lines of Scott Lefaro to any level of satisfaction.

Now I understand the cable could be having run in issues. I also know my NDS is probably still running in since I bought it new in late January.

QUESTION 1: So has anyone had fun with the NDS running in and having big top, middle and low end fluctuations on the way through? And how long did it go on for before it finally settled in to consistently high performance?

QUESTION 2: And how long did Super Lumina owners find that cable took to settle down? It seems to vary from 2-3 weeks to months.

So far without being able to pick apart what is playing up (cable or NDS) now we have set the SL up as well as can be achieved it is really difficult for me to be able to report back and my recommendation to those of others regarding the SuperLumina.

One thing I can reiterate, without any shred of doubt in my mind, is that this cable is very sensitive to how it is deployed - in my opinion even more so than the HiLine. Naim make some recommendations in the small manual for the SL for some very real and good reasons. It is my experience that to get the best out of this cable you would do well to heed them.

Any insights on the questions above would be greatly appreciated.

Kind regards and Happy Easter  

Norman

From experience, the Din-XLR SL took at least 6m to run in and stabilise, SL interconnect was around 2m.  When I bought my stereo pair of Din-XLRs I was disappointed to the extent that I considered ditching them (even at 3k cost) but it was the fact that the dealer demo set I had before had kept my sanity as they were very good.  

You are not alone. I think I borrowed my dealers SL interconnect about 3 times before I had that moment of revelation when I experienced what it can really do. I was like you and pretty happy with the Hiline but I made the jump and was lucky as my SL sounded great out of the box and just got better and better.

Congrats on your SL purchase Norman. 

In my experience a rule of thumb for cable break-in is about a month for the majority of the process. Regardless if it concerns IC, speaker or power cables. After a month the process continues but the changes, and more frustrating, the fluctuations in sound get less both in quantity and quality as things settle down. Another rule of thumb, the longer cables take to break-in, the better the dialectric usually is. 

Cables also get 'stressed' just by moving & handling them. This is no hush hush or witchcraft. Piezoelectric effect and friction within a cable (from moving & handling) increase the standing charge that lives in every cable and can be measured in millivolts. It takes playing time to lower the charge back to the normal 'settled level' of that specific cable. The standing charge never gets to zero. This is why it takes 24hrs or more before your system sounds good again after messing with the cables.

However, the degraded sound of 'stressed cables' often remains unnoticed as it's offset by the improvement that comes from simply un- and plugging the connectors that improves connectivity. Esspecially if the cables were connected for months or longer. 

I do find it odd that the installation of the SL appears to be sooo critical. 

Richard

I'm looking at upgrading my cables as the last part of putting my system together once my speakers have settled in. I was thinking of SL interconnect /speaker cables, however   reading this thread I have to say I'm concerned that in the tight space I have to work in I may not get them performing at their best. Are other cables, like T-Q, equally difficult to get the best from them?

I have had no problem accommodating both SL interconnect and SL speaker cables. Just make sure the cables don't touch other cables (or the floor and hang free of the rack for the SL IC) and you should be fine. Just bear in mind the burn in period and if you home demo them (which I would strongly recommend) make sure you have cables that have been fully run in. That way you will hear them at their best and you will know to be patient if new ones sound off in comparison for a while.