The Somme

My two grandfathers fought in WW1, one dying of his injuries a few months after Ypres, another gassed (not sure where) and suffering poor health before he died in 1921.

I visited Ypres and the area for the first time in 2015 but only really the museum at Ypres really connected me to the events. I found it hard otherwise to relate the reality of the war with the placid Belgian countryside. For me paying respect is a personal and private thing, I don't find monuments or ceremony very affecting. Music or poetry has more effect.

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning
We will remember them.

People who have known my contributions here over a long term will now I'm vigorously anti-war and a pacifist. I don't think that comes from my family background (my Father also served in Korea, briefly) but from my job and my personal ethics.

Incidentally (hey it is a HiFi Forum) the music that moans and winds in a continuous loop at the Ypres museum is by Tindersticks and is astonishing played at home if you are in the right mood.

Bruce

Hi Bruce, yes, I have listened to the music by Tindersticks. Very haunting, but perhaps once was enough.

You are correct in my view that it is difficult to make a connection with the modern landscape. I have made that connection in my own way through walking in the steps of individuals connected to my family and friends. Using regimental diaries and trench maps it is amazing how closely you can follow them. Understanding the horror, noise, smell and fear is another matter though.

While not a pacifist my experience certainly makes me think long and hard about incidents such as the American strike in Syria last night.

Stu

We stayed in Ypres in 2012, whilst visiting the grave of Sally's great uncle at  Laventie. What struck was just how many graveyards there were, I know masses of soldiers gave the ultimate price, but it does give an additional hint to the numbers.

My grandfather who was in the Logistics corps had (now mine) a series of books, made of bound weekly magazines. I would look and read these when I visited him, the pictures of total destruction stuck in my mind. These were re-visited when looking in the war museum in Ypres, the town was virtually flattened, the daily service at Menin Gate is very moving.

I think that unlike the WWII there isn't as much to actually see, OK some trenches , but if at the sites you have to try and use your imagination to get an impression of what it must have been like.

My father instilled an interest in history in me, particularly of WW1. Not sure why that era, since I don't think any of my ancestors were involved.

My wife and I have visited most of the major WW1 battlefields, in France, and always come away with a renewed horror of war and all that it stands for. Indeed, I abhor war to the extent that I have not spoken to my brother since he first joined the army and have still not spoken to him in the 12 years since he left. 

The UK seems to get very hung up on the Somme, but a trip to Verdun was staggering for the vast scale of losses and a countryside that still bears the scars of the conflict.

Hi Nick,

yes, Verdun retains so much unsanitised battlefield it is actually a dangerous place to visit still. While there are 'tourist' bits to visit it's really easy to go for a walk in the forrest and witness the devastation to the landscape. This is not possible further north where the British sectors where.

Preserved trench systems (e.g. Newfoundland Park at Beaumont Hamel) give an idea for the visitor, but it's difficult to imagine the true horrors. Verdun seems to retain the horror written on the landscape.

Sorry to hear about your brother, it's an emotive topic as Bruce's topic today clearly indicates.

Stu

 'The Somme' covers a large area & it does pay to do some pre-visit research to seek out places of interest & make an itinerary. Unmissable are Thiepval Memorial & the museum at Albert, the rest is dependant on the time you have & what interests you most.

I have five relatives lost at the Somme, brothers & cousins of both my grandfathers.  One was recently found in a previously unknown mass grave associated with Passchendaele & he was ID'd by DNA.  Another is NKG.

Talking of grandfathers - both of mine followed each other around WW-1 (not that they knew each other).  One was in Royal Bucks Hussars, the other The London Regiment, both fought at Gallipoli & the Palestine Campaign & came within a few hundred yards of each other in the Battle for Jerusalem.   One took part in the very last horse charge with swords drawn by british cavalry at the battle of Mughar.   After the battle the other g.father moved in to mop up the remaining resistance & then took over as the garrison to hold the area (after walking all the way from Egypt he took great delight in telling everyone)  

Hi Mike, agree re doing research before going on a trip to the Somme. It seems like ordinary rolling chalk down with monuments and cematarys dotted around at first. I find March is good as you can still see chalky ghosts of the trenches across newly ploughed fields.

Wonderful stories about your grandfathers.

Stu

The Major and Mrs Holt books are particularly good for planning trips of this kind. Have extensively toured the Ypres Salient, Artois and Vimy Ridge, The Some, as well as Normandy using these.

Have yet to visit Champagne and Verdun.

I suspect my interest is down to the fact that both my Grandfathers fought and were gassed in WW1... Both survived but suffered ill health until they died in the 1950's.  Sadly I never knew either of them.

Alan, I also fancy a trip to Normandy some time. The Champgne is off the normal tourist trail. Local farmers have really impressive private museums in their barns. Verdun has its own oppressive atmosphere and is a particularly sad place.

I think your experience of following in the footsteps of family members is really common these days, a good thing in my view.

Stu

Normandy is very rewarding,  I did it over about 6 months of weekends when I was based in France.  I have a deep interest in the parachute regiment & the actions around the road bridges over the Orne river and the Caen canal are the icons of D-Day & Normandy.   My father was a sgt training instructor with 2nd Ox & Bucks LI & trained the D-Coy men that went in by glider to initially capture the bridges.     He became frustrated seeing men going off to action & after having completed all the training for many of the newly formed airlanding battalions, was posted to Dover as part of the D-Day invasion decoy.   He volunteered to join the Parachute Regiment & in mid 1944 became a Section Sgt with 10th Batt,  then in September was dropped into Arnhem & was KIA.    If you are looking for a battlefield visit that has so much to offer including one of the best one subject museums anywhere on the planet,  Arnhem has it all.

Hi Mike, I will add Arnhem to my list. I have an ex Para friend who has a grandad buried there. Amazing bravery and endurance from those guys.

Stu

There are some incredible places to visit. Some of the most moving (for me at least) are Langemarke (German) cemetary near Ypres, Notre-Dame De Lorrette (largest French military  cemetary in the world) at Ablain St-Nazaire (Artois), Indian memorial at Neuve Chapelle, Delville Wood memorial (Somme), Newfoundland Memorial park (Somme).

For WW2 - A visit to Oradour Sur Glane Is a must for anyone with an interest - a visit is obligatory for all French school children I believe.

My Mother lost a brother on the first day. He had lied about his age and was only 16.

One of my Great Uncles was an infantry Lieutenant, he went over the top in a minor action in 1917 and was never seen again, no body was ever found.

It's such an indicator of the impact of war that so many people lost a relative in that madness.

There's a beautiful song that I can't sing without breaking down...
"Where have all the flowers gone"

It also reminds us that it's not just that one war (one of my family died in the English Civil War, another one in the American-Canadian war of 1812).  We are incredibly lucky to live in such (relatively) peaceful times.

I have very mixed feelings about the WWI trench warfare and the prospect of visiting the memorial sites.  I suspect that I never will.  Not out of any disrespect to the soldiers who fought, were wounded, died.  It's just the industrial scale of death which WWI imposed upon the individual soldier and the sheer terror it must have imposed on those stuck in the trenches and then ordered out to face machine gun and worse bombarding them which I find incomprehensible.  And all so relatively close to home.  Not some far away land, slightly removed from the conscience.  Without them doing this, where would we all be?  Horrible juxtaposition.

Peter

What is heartwarming is that quite a few Forum members are fully aware of family involved. They are remembered which, for me, is the most important thing.

Stu

When we lived in Belgium we were visited by my mother and father-in-law and took them to Ypres. He mentioned that his grandfather had been killed there in WW1 but had no idea where it happened. We looked at the Mennen Gate to see if he was amongst those that did not have a grave, but we found nothing. My father-in-law on returning to the UK contacted the War Graves Commission and they wrote back confirming when his grandfather was killed and his burial position at Hoog Crater ceremony. So, on All Souls Day, a public holiday in Belgium, my wife and I visited the site and found his grave as advised by the War Grave Commission, the first and only people to visit his grave since his death in 1917.

We lived in Braine L'Alleud and could see the Butte du Lion from our window. This was built to commemorate the Prince of Orange being wounded at the Battle of Waterloo. Next month we are visiting Bayeux which will give us easy access to the British landing sites on D Day. We have already visited the American landing sites. Omaha looked a particularly stupid place to land but I guess they were supposed to have armour to protect them that simply sunk before they could hit the beaches.

The US had the most difficult beach in Omaha for sure, as evidenced by the casualties. Easy to see why when viewing the terrain... overlooked by an enemy above you with tight interlaced machine gun fire raining down. Nevertheless it was necessary to assult that section of coast to avoid opening up a gap between the US forces on Utah beach to the West and the rest assaulting Gold, Juno and Sword further east.

I went to the Somme last year, a very moving experience. The Thiepval Memorial is a must do pilgrimage, I also thought the Delville Wood memorial and cemetery emotive too. The Newfoundland  Memorial Park, the memorial to the Canadians, near Beaumont Hamel is also worth visiting. The are many other cemeteries to see (sadly) and as previously mentioned the museum in Albert is also worthy of a visit.

I went to Ypres in 2014 another moving experience. The 'Last Post' ceremony at the Menin Gate each evening is an absolute must to witness. We luckily stayed in accommodation that was owned by the president of the Last Post Society and he graciously invited us into the VIP area of the memorial for the ceremony that evening for which we were very grateful and were extremely moved by the proceedings. What is most tragic is to witness the thousands of names inscribed on the the walls of the Menin Gate (and the Thiepval Memorial) of those soldiers who have no known grave and as you walk through the various war grave cemeteries to see so many white Portland stone headstones inscribed only with 'Known Unto God'. What these men (and boys) endured is hard to imagine, 'lambs to the slaughter' in many cases. I also thought the museum at Passchendaele very impressive and would recommend it to be visited along with The Brooding Soldier, The Pool of Peace and Langemark cemetery.

Ken

Southweststokie posted:

I went to the Somme last year, a very moving experience. The Thiepval Memorial is a must do pilgrimage, I also thought the Delville Wood memorial and cemetery emotive too. The Newfoundland  Memorial Park, the memorial to the Canadians, near Beaumont Hamel is also worth visiting. The are many other cemeteries to see (sadly) and as previously mentioned the museum in Albert is also worthy of a visit.

I went to Ypres in 2014 another moving experience. The 'Last Post' ceremony at the Menin Gate each evening is an absolute must to witness. We luckily stayed in accommodation that was owned by the president of the Last Post Society and he graciously invited us into the VIP area of the memorial for the ceremony that evening for which we were very grateful and were extremely moved by the proceedings. What is most tragic is to witness the thousands of names inscribed on the the walls of the Menin Gate (and the Thiepval Memorial) of those soldiers who have no known grave and as you walk through the various war grave cemeteries to see so many white Portland stone headstones inscribed only with 'Known Unto God'. What these men (and boys) endured is hard to imagine, 'lambs to the slaughter' in many cases. I also thought the museum at Passchendaele very impressive and would recommend it to be visited along with The Brooding Soldier, The Pool of Peace and Langemark cemetery.

Ken

Another one to add to the list in Flanders is the cemetery at Tyne Cot, the largest CWGC cemetery on the Western Front, with the remains of almost 12,000 soldiers buried there. Around 70% of the soldiers are unknown.

Ken

Hi Ken, absolutely agree about Tyne Cot. It just blows your mind. It's really hard to get your head around, although the visitors centre is very good.

Stu

20 years ago we spent a few days in France and Belgium visiting the sites of WW1 battlefields and some of the associated Commonwealth War Graves.

My youngest daughter had missed a school history trip and wanted to make good that omission.

My second daughter and her Canadian husband (Shannon) came along just to experience France and Paris. They didn’t seem too interested in the WW1 aspect of the trip, but after we had stopped at a couple of small, roadside cemeteries, they began to experience the significance of the human tragedy and heroism that is war.

We spent a day at Vimy Ridge. They were astonished at how close the opposing trenches were and appalled but amazed at the underground tunnels that led the way to the front line.

Shannon’s Canadian grandfather had been a volunteer WW2 Lancaster bomber pilot who completed two tours of duty before becoming an instructor. Until this trip, Shannon had simply been vaguely aware that his grandfather had “been in the war”. After this trip, he began to grasp the value of freedom and both the risk his grandfather had taken and the price many were willing to pay or had paid to secure this freedom, for themselves and for others.

It helped him develop as a more balanced, mature and caring person.

Wonderful outcome Don.

Stu

If you do downstream on the River Somme from the WW1 battlefields you get to the Baie de Somme, where you can see the  massive concrete defences built in WWII to keep the allies out.  Quite impressive apart from the knowledge that slave labour was used to build the defences.