Just done a demo. of PMC Twenty5.26 and Harbeth SHL5+ speakers

Do you know if they had the Devialet SAM profile loaded for the PMC (if it has one yet) that would probably cause the extra bass extension you experienced.  I can't claim to have heard a 300DR or Devialet 440 and while they maybe in the same price range and I'd argue that they probably sound quite different.  I understand that the Devialet is more neutral than Naim, I sure someone will tell that I'm wrong .  

I personally wouldn't risk a speaker purchase without trying on my system unless I was thinking of changing all that as well.  I'm surprised the dealer hasn't offered a home demo, when I bought my S400's I had a series of speakers Revel, Proac, Living Voice and Devore which I was able to trial (this is in NZ so they should in Oz).  I would have most likely bought a different speaker had I not heard them in my environment with my equipment.  What is that you are looking for in a speaker?  I would have thought the Harbeth would have been a sideways move, different sound for sure but not a major step up from the S400, maybe that would come with the 40.2.

Cheers Simon. I'll ask on Monday re. the SAM profile. Australia is a bit different re. home demos. Most places in my experience are not very happy to lend out equipment for demo. However I'll ask as  the dealer seems like someone who I can build a rapport with , so I'll see how I go. Looking for more of the same as the S400, but with more detail, better mid range detail and intimacy, better/ deeper bass reach for rock music, better 3D imaging and soundstage if I can. My budget is at about the PMC Twenty5 .26 level, I looked into Dynaudo C2 (out of my budget) C1 (not enough bass slam/reach for my room), ProAc D48R (impossible to demo.even in store), Harbeth 40.2 (way out of my price range), B&W, Focal same (way out of my budget for the models I would like , 803, Sopora etc. level speaker), ATC has no dealer in my State. 

Also looked into the Vivid Audio B1, but it looked a bit hard to balance out correctly in rooms with the rear firing woofer and the price was above my budget too.

Peter,

You heard what you heard which, from your write up, sounds like an impressive pair of PMCs.

I own 20.24s and have heard 20.26s which were clearer, better in the mid range than mine and   I can only imagine the 25.26s to be even better. Not cheap though. Farnthorpes are selling a pair of the older model for £3k.

Ray

Yeah Ray, unfortunately we also pay an "Australia Tax" for anything that's nice or a luxury. Tyranny of distance and small population also guarantees this. PMC are OK in this regard, it's other brands that smack us hard for the privilege of quality hi fi.

I just missed out on their demo. pair of 20.26 by one week, very attractive price it was too. Oh well, I'll just have to wait and see if I can demo. either their 25.26 at home or bring my S400 to them for a demo.

Thanks for sharing your findings.

The home demo is definitely the best route here. Even if its with the dealer present and for a couple of hours. You're spending serious money so should get decent service.

Also worth asking the dealer to move the speakers around a little in their dem room, relatively small movements can emphasise or de-emphasise bass at the listening position.

An interesting choice of speakers to audition - pretty much at the extremes of 'flavour' - one being laid back in a  jazz delicacy kind of way, the other more dynamic in a lets party kind of way. Perhaps, as you preferred the PMC, it would be worth trying some other speakers similar in character, now knowing which end of the scale you prefer.

Home dem if you can though

It's a lot to spend. I'd insist on a home demonstration. Big speakers with deep bass can be a real challenge and it would be most unfortunate if you bought them, took them home, and found that they were a disaster. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

It's a lot to spend. I'd insist on a home demonstration. Big speakers with deep bass can be a real challenge and it would be most unfortunate if you bought them, took them home, and found that they were a disaster. 

Couldn't agree more with you, HH. My very recent experience with 300DR and the ProAc K6s shows just how wrong it can all go between dealer demo room and the home setting. The combination of the two in my lounge was a total disaster, more bloated, booming bass than ectoplasm in a Ghostbusters movie!! If I'd purchased on the basis of the dealer demo I'd now be almost suicidal. Fortunately the replacement of the 300 by 250DR brought about a miraculous transformation (and saved me money into the bargain!). Home demo an absolute must!

Tim

I also agree with Tim and HH.. the other thing to note is that  for much musical information and enjoyment you don't need extended bass, as your brain interpolates.. the AES have got some interesting research papers on this. However if you need to significantly feel the bass  and are into large scale pipe organ music, EDM  or heavy dub then you will need to bite the bullet but be prepared for significant room treatments...

I'll go to the dealer next week and see how I go. If the home demo. is off the cards, how do PMC in general go in regards to close listening distances. Mine is about 8 ft to the S400's, but I could stretch that to 9ft if I have to. I am a bit more restricted in both speaker width apart, about 7ft max. measured between the speaker tweeter to tweeter.

It will be in a room 16ft x 29ft but speakers firing from the short wall and in the left half section of the room all open plan as this is all my wife will allow : (  

crackie posted:

Yeah Ray, unfortunately we also pay an "Australia Tax" for anything that's nice or a luxury. Tyranny of distance and small population also guarantees this. PMC are OK in this regard, it's other brands that smack us hard for the privilege of quality hi fi.

I just missed out on their demo. pair of 20.26 by one week, very attractive price it was too. Oh well, I'll just have to wait and see if I can demo. either their 25.26 at home or bring my S400 to them for a demo.

Peter,

We have something called VAT too which was originally touted as a luxury tax. It's just about applied to every purchase and service now though. At least you have a decent cricket team and good weather. I am convinced our damp and dreary winters are the reason why staying inside playing music is so appealing in the UK.

Ray

So your dealer is telling you that a Devialet sounds similar to Naim? Right. 

Any other dealers within reasonable driving distance? 

If you can't persuade the dealer to let you have a home demo, even just for an hour or two as SunbeamGLS suggested, then take your speakers, and your amp if the dealer doesn't have one unless you plan to change to the Devialet some time, so you know how the speakers behave with your amp. Even though not as good as hearing at home, at least by comparison of the two speakers on your amp and thinking about how different your own sound (or not) compared to at home, you will get some idea of now the PMCs might sound at home.

I really love the higher level PMCs, but as the top of the 25 range they are indeed likely to be great as you have found, and your room is large enough to do them justice. PMCs really do do good bass, especially with a good amp.

What a coincidence as I also played the track "With or without you" from U2 when i was comparing the NACA5 to the Chord Epic several days ago. It is one of my favourite tracks from U2. Although not familiar with the particular PMC model you have auditioned, it is not much of a surprise you preferred the PMCs by a large margin as they will be more efficient in bringing out the bass and electric guitar riffs. The bass of the Harbeth SHL5+ is softer and not as punchy or tight as the PMCs, in general. Electric guitars will also have more energy on the PMC, basically more spotlit. 

In my setup, U2 sounded better when the NACA5 was used with the SHL5+ on 282/250DR/Hicap Dr. Not sure if the Devialet 440 sounds like the Naim or if it is a good match with the Harbeth. The Harbeths will sound soft with most amps though the Naim's hard-charging character matches the Harbeth pretty well. Having said that, with U2 i have little doubts the PMC will be a better choice.

Sorry, just to clarify the dealer has Audio Research, Plinius, Rega Isis and Devialet. He reckoned the Devialet was the closest match to my 252/300 that he had in store. Had to go with what he had at the time.

Good news is I can borrow the PMC over Easter. I'll pick them up this Thursday, and will have a good listen over 4 days. Fingers crossed they work in my room with my gear. 

Excellent - it's funny how 'no home demo is possible' changes to borrow them for four days....

Do beware of what you said in your first post about wanting them anyway. Try to avoid swapping between the two sets of speakers. Just use the PMCs for about three days, then put the Ovators back and just use them. That should reveal which you prefer. And don't be wowed by deep impressive bass and hifi nonsense - see which speakers disappear in the room and pull you into the music - that's very likely the pair you want. 

I demo'd the Twenty.26 a while ago now and thought it was a fantastic speaker. However, once I got them home they were way to much for the room and had to be returned. My room was much smaller than yours but the listening distance and 16ft short room width room was similar. Firing 26 down the short room width may be pushing it... firing down the long length would be better chance of success, try to persuade wife a new room layout may be required, perhaps she is open to bribery? 

Hungryhalibut posted:

Excellent - it's funny how 'no home demo is possible' changes to borrow them for four days....

Do beware of what you said in your first post about wanting them anyway. Try to avoid swapping between the two sets of speakers. Just use the PMCs for about three days, then put the Ovators back and just use them. That should reveal which you prefer. And don't be wowed by deep impressive bass and hifi nonsense - see which speakers disappear in the room and pull you into the music - that's very likely the pair you want. 

Very good advice. Don't let an A/B itch tempt you not to follow it....

Halloween Man posted:

I demo'd the Twenty.26 a while ago now and thought it was a fantastic speaker. However, once I got them home they were way to much for the room and had to be returned. My room was much smaller than yours but the listening distance and 16ft short room width room was similar. Firing 26 down the short room width may be pushing it... firing down the long length would be better chance of success, try to persuade wife a new room layout may be required, perhaps she is open to bribery? 

It really depends on the room. I have often found the reverse to be true....

Michael_B. posted:

Halloween Man posted:

I demo'd the Twenty.26 a while ago now and thought it was a fantastic speaker. However, once I got them home they were way to much for the room and had to be returned. My room was much smaller than yours but the listening distance and 16ft short room width room was similar. Firing 26 down the short room width may be pushing it... firing down the long length would be better chance of success, try to persuade wife a new room layout may be required, perhaps she is open to bribery? 

It really depends on the room. I have often found the reverse to be true....

Yes, as bass is effectively omnidirectional it radiates both down and across the room from wherever each speaker is placed, so in either case it depends just where the speakers and listening position are sited and on the room size and shape - and as always some playing around with those may be necessary when installing new speakers.

How do the 400s compare to the Harbeths you demoed? If you had to choose between the two which would you choose? Why?

I have 252 -300 and Harbeth shl5's and it's a great match you should hear them in the right context before you make your mind up 

I have super low bass with full control 

Hilz 

Hi MM

400's don't even come close to the engaging listen of the Harbeth's

just my 2 peneth

hilz ��

Innocent Bystander posted:

Michael_B. posted:

Halloween Man posted:

I demo'd the Twenty.26 a while ago now and thought it was a fantastic speaker. However, once I got them home they were way to much for the room and had to be returned. My room was much smaller than yours but the listening distance and 16ft short room width room was similar. Firing 26 down the short room width may be pushing it... firing down the long length would be better chance of success, try to persuade wife a new room layout may be required, perhaps she is open to bribery? 

It really depends on the room. I have often found the reverse to be true....

Yes, as bass is effectively omnidirectional it radiates both down and across the room from wherever each speaker is placed, so in either case it depends just where the speakers and listening position are sited and on the room size and shape - and as always some playing around with those may be necessary when installing new speakers.

Firing down the longest length of the room will give the speakers and listening position more space and therefore may avoid placing these in areas where low frequency levels are high such as front and back wall perimeters.

MM, hard to say. I had a pair of the old SHL5, and TBH I thought the S400 are similar in the midrange. New SHL5+ is a bit differant. I would say it has a bit better bass (deeper and tighter to me) the rest is very similar to the old version. Hard to really say though, different room, electronics etc. set up to mine at the dealer. 

The Harbeth  is a quality speaker for sure, I just thought the PMC was better on the day with the music I like. 

I have recently found that bass and room interaction can be a tricky problem to fix. I have a pair of motive sx1's on home demo and I love most of what they do but sometimes the bass can be too prominent in my room. I really like them and the bass can sound great on well recorded albums but it may depend on what you like to listen to and if the bass is too overpowering to spoil the fun. If I had a larger room they would have been purchased by now. Make sure you spend some time experimenting with positioning (speakers that is)!