Just done a demo. of PMC Twenty5.26 and Harbeth SHL5+ speakers

I don't know about F8, Fact 12 are extremely good, belying their diminutive dimensions - if you were looking at new 25-26 then secondhand F12s might be not far off same cost -IF they come available ( I have seen ex-dems down to £8k). But certainly try 20-26 first.

Noticed that pmc are using the same tweeter inthe 25 line from entry level 21 to top level 26.

Righto HH, yes it does doesn't it just .............

sucked in with what they did fantastically  well I suppose and with only Easter to demo. etc, etc,etc.

Well, I'm glad you were able to get a home demo. Imagine if you'd bought them after liking them in the shop. 

Any chance to audition Dynaudio's new Contour series where you live ? At Acoustica's show earlier this year, I thought these are rather impressive speakers, even though the room wasn't set-up terribly well. 

Why are you looking at buying new speakers? Maybe you're happier with S400's than you think. You're very close to wasting a lot of money.

If you are considering the Harbeth, I would suggest giving the SHL5+ a second chance, in your room, instead of the M40.2. The latter may have more bass and go deeper but the SHL5+ is often more easier to get right than the 40.2. I only have experience with the 40.1 and it sounds a bit heavy, slow and warmer/thicker next to the SHL5. I would expect the 40.2 to sound quite similar to the 40.1. The SHL5+ is not only more versatile with placement but will likely sound leaner and faster than the 40.2. Best if you can try both speakers or any other speaker in consideration in your own room and decide for yourself.

My only recent-ish experience with PMC is the Fact.8. The sibilance is also very much apparent in these models, pronounced and edgy highs are apparently a PMC thing. After 15mins already I had enough. The S600 were too soft for me, never heard the S400's.

However, it's all very personal. There are so many factors and characteristics that are in play when selecting speakers, it's almost impossible to suggest a suitable speaker. I mean, when I look at my initial requirements and see what kind of speakers I finally selected and bought, it's miles apart. Turned out that some characteristics I didn't think about initially proved to be crucial in my final choice.

I learned also that when something irritates me in the shop's demo system, it will still irritate me in my house. There's no use in trying something at home if you don't like it in the shop. The character of the speaker will not change at home, so don't bother.             

CRACKIE

You are not alone with your observation of treble problems with PMC speakers, myself and others have heard the same thing you complained about with their tweeters.

When you listen to really refined sounding tweeters you become more aware of  the shortcoming of lesser designs.

I would suggest listening to Dynaudio speakers and hear what a exceptionally refined tweeter can sound like, also try Focal, Proac, and B&W to hear some of the finest sounding tweeters available. 

I didn'tbnotice any sibilance when I was auditioning different PMCs a year ago - it could be a mismatch between something else in the system and PMC - or possibly in my case age might have its advantages...!

I've been running in a pair of PMC Twenty 26 for the last two weeks. I was quite concerned about the harshness of the tweeters at first. There were some female vocals I couldn't listen to. Now, with about 60 hours use, that is no longer the case. The tweeters have mellowed and I'm really loving these speakers.

I recently auditioned the PMC twenty5 21s and 23s and could not get over the 'hardness' of the treble which made the speakers sound very much 'in your face'. Very detailed but definitely not relaxing (this was my second audition of the twenty5 23s). In the end I went for the ATC AMC 11s which has a soft dome speaker and was every bit as detailed but with a far more Relaxed ' presentation.

Maybe the ATC SMC40s are worth a look

Thank you all for your advice. Listening to the PMC's again today before they get boxed up and returned. Love what they do well, a very engaging listen, punchy deep bass, almost the perfect speaker for rock music - except the obvious issues I am having. Man can they make UB40 such an engaging listen.

Spent hours going over old naim forum and other internet sites looking to narrow down a few speakers to try next. I think ProAc D48R or the new D30S or ATC SMC40 are next up as short list speakers that will perhaps suit my needs better and in my budget. 

Sorry if I sound indecisive etc. but there are pretty much only 2-3 genuine Hi Fi dealers in my city, and they all carry a limited range. However most speakers can be ordered in if I want a pair. Hence in home demo. opportunities are very scarce to organise.

You're lucky with 2-3 dealers in your hometown. I live in a 300.000+ citizen city, and there's just one.  Around 10 brands of speakers, but that's enough to do a first selection. 

Yes, a home demo can be a pain to organise. But again, don't do a home demo if you are already convinced by the speaker in the shop.  

All of my Naim stuff I bought in one go in a city about 35km from my hometown, my speakers from a shop 80km away. Visited 10 shops or so, with the one furthest away was a 90min drive. I tried 4 speakers from 3 brands at home. Of which two I wasn't convinced in the shop already, and a home demo didn't change that. Useless exercise. 

Spending serious money should be fun, don't let it become a pain. 

If you get sibilant sound from 25.26 then there's obviously some imbalance elsewhere in your system. I've heard this speaker few times and there's not a slightest hint of sibilance when paired with correct setup. I've also owned two pairs of PMC speakers with my Naim setup (GB1i and 20.23) and no signs of sibilance there either. Usually if you get sibilant sound and everything seems to be ok with the system, you can experiment with cabling, speaker positioning and acoustic treatments. I've noticed that cabling has much to do with sibilance and with correct choice of interconnect and speaker cables, you can do a lot. 

Hi Streamz, 3 dealers in my city, next city with any serious hi fi shops are 2,700 km away........

Sorry Patu, disagree. I just packed the PMC's up and hooked my S400 back in the system. Not a hint of sibilance. I tried everything I could in the days I had for the demo. Toe in, firing right ahead, moving them in / out , tried 2x sets of speaker cable,tried later at night, early in the day, after a work out etc. etc. sounded sibilant at all times. Unless the dealer was incorrect in saying they had 100 hours on them I am at a loss on what to do next to make them work in my room.

I loved the upfront sound, punchy & deep bass, and the detail they could drag out of every song I had was breathtaking. However the relentless sibilance was not.

crackie posted:

Hi Streamz, 3 dealers in my city, next city with any serious hi fi shops are 2,700 km away........

Sorry Patu, disagree. I just packed the PMC's up and hooked my S400 back in the system. Not a hint of sibilance. I tried everything I could in the days I had for the demo. Toe in, firing right ahead, moving them in / out , tried 2x sets of speaker cable,tried later at night, early in the day, after a work out etc. etc. sounded sibilant at all times. Unless the dealer was incorrect in saying they had 100 hours on them I am at a loss on what to do next to make them work in my room.

I loved the upfront sound, punchy & deep bass, and the detail they could drag out of every song I had was breathtaking. However the relentless sibilance was not.

Well it sounds you've tried some tweaking. I'm sorry that they didn't work for you. I've loved them in the demos I've heard them in. I'm very sensitive to sibilance also so I know what you're talking about, it's super annoying. I've managed to make my system sound sibilant and tiring by only changing one interconnect cable or power distribution block, so it can really be about small things when you're balancing between the refined detailness and sibilant detailness. S400 is more familiar to me, I've heard it in multiple systems and yes, its highs sound extremely smooth compared to PMC or many other manufacturers. To my taste it's even too smooth, masking some of the details you can hear with more revealing speakers. But it's super fun to listen to, just what you'd expect from Naim.

EDIT:

Do try ATC SCM40 though. If you liked 25.26, it won't disappoint you. Maybe its treble acts differently in your system. Also NAP300 should have plenty of power to drive them. SCM40 is more difficult speaker to drive than 25.26. 

crackie posted:

Hi Streamz, 3 dealers in my city, next city with any serious hi fi shops are 2,700 km away........

Sorry Patu, disagree. I just packed the PMC's up and hooked my S400 back in the system. Not a hint of sibilance. I tried everything I could in the days I had for the demo. Toe in, firing right ahead, moving them in / out , tried 2x sets of speaker cable,tried later at night, early in the day, after a work out etc. etc. sounded sibilant at all times. Unless the dealer was incorrect in saying they had 100 hours on them I am at a loss on what to do next to make them work in my room.

I loved the upfront sound, punchy & deep bass, and the detail they could drag out of every song I had was breathtaking. However the relentless sibilance was not.

Hi Crackie, if you like the sort of PMC performance you may well like the ATCs. The bass is not as extended unattenuated, but I find the ATCs more natural, dynamic and punchy across the audio band. The mids are usually to die for.. it seems to be an ATC speciality, and the trebles are insightful and clean without being overly prominent... you get no added PMC sibilance and grit ( ATC now design and produce their own tweeters without needing to use ferrofluid) .. the designs are very unforgiving, so partner carefully, but at the same time for me they get you closer to the music. Worth a demo, but caution the 40s are HEAVY speakers. I run a pair of 19s now.

Hi Simon,

Yep, these are on my very short list as well as ProAc D48R, Harbeth M40.2 (if I can swing a deal to get the price down). My only concern with the ATC SMC 40 was the 85 db efficiency rating and that they will be in a 5m x 9m room and that my 300DR  "may" run out of puff in party mode.

crackie posted:

Hi Simon,

Yep, these are on my very short list as well as ProAc D48R, Harbeth M40.2 (if I can swing a deal to get the price down). My only concern with the ATC SMC 40 was the 85 db efficiency rating and that they will be in a 5m x 9m room and that my 300DR  "may" run out of puff in party mode.

I run SCM40 with SuperNait2 + HiCap DR. While they most probably would like more power, they play very good with this combo also. SN2 is surprisingly capable integrated but needs the extra juice provided by HCDR to run SCM40 properly. I've also heard these run with 282/250.2 and it clearly improved things. 300DR is most definitely spot on for SCM40. Naim watts are no ordinary watts.  

Righto I'll keep this in mind, thank you. Most of my serious listening sessions are at about 75 to 85db peak on my radioshack SPL meter. 

Update:

Demoing a pair of ProAc D48R at the moment. Only 24 hours on them, but it's looking good so  far. Set up 18 inches from a solid brick wall, put Chord Signature Link set on the bi wire terminals and ditched the supplies links. Much better clarity now, more extended treble too and the mid range has opened much more from just this simple change.

I'll put another 50-100 hours on them and report back.

Well, 180 hours on them now. Honestly I think these are going back too. They do nothing wrong and are clearly a classy speaker. Just a bit boring, looking back at the PMC tewnty5.26, they (ProAc D48R) are just not as exciting. Am I expecting too much ? 

I listen to 90% rock and the ProAc's are not doing it for me. Do they need more hours on them or are they clearly not a "rock music" only speaker ? As it stands now, I'll be taking them back soon and going for the PMC Twenty5.26 and try harder to make the sibilance it showed work in my room/system somehow. Because at the dealer they did not show that character at all.

So maybe you l move to your dealer.

On 16 April the sibilance of the 26 was driving you mad. Now you are saying that you are going to get them anyway. Are you that desperate to get rid of the 400s that you'll buy something that drives you mad? It really doesn't sound like a wise decision.