Just done a demo. of PMC Twenty5.26 and Harbeth SHL5+ speakers

Have you not been able to audition ATCs?

crackie posted:

Well, 180 hours on them now. Honestly I think these are going back too. They do nothing wrong and are clearly a classy speaker. Just a bit boring, looking back at the PMC tewnty5.26, they (ProAc D48R) are just not as exciting. Am I expecting too much ? 

I listen to 90% rock and the ProAc's are not doing it for me. Do they need more hours on them or are they clearly not a "rock music" only speaker ? As it stands now, I'll be taking them back soon and going for the PMC Twenty5.26 and try harder to make the sibilance it showed work in my room/system somehow. Because at the dealer they did not show that character at all.

I see that when you auditioned the PMC speakers at your dealer you were using different electronics so it might be easier said than done ?

alanbass1 posted:

Have you not been able to audition ATCs?

+1

At this point, I'd definitely give ATC a try. SCM40 is almost half the price of 25.26 and share a similar sound signature. I come from 20.23 and in comparison to SCM40, the smaller PMC's were destroyed. 

Many suggest a long audition.   Sometimes a length of a couple of years is needed to really know what your ears want. Then a few more after upgrading to hear the wood from the trees.

I mentioned on 16 April that I had about 60 hours on a pair of PMC Twenty 26 speakers and that the sibilance I had found in some female vocals  prior to this had gone. I've got another 100 or so hours on the clock and these PMCs have really come good now. I favour rock music too as well as female vocalists. Give the PMC time and you should be rewarded.

crackie posted:

Well, 180 hours on them now. Honestly I think these are going back too. They do nothing wrong and are clearly a classy speaker. Just a bit boring, looking back at the PMC tewnty5.26, they (ProAc D48R) are just not as exciting. Am I expecting too much ? 

I listen to 90% rock and the ProAc's are not doing it for me. Do they need more hours on them or are they clearly not a "rock music" only speaker ? As it stands now, I'll be taking them back soon and going for the PMC Twenty5.26 and try harder to make the sibilance it showed work in my room/system somehow. Because at the dealer they did not show that character at all.

This may sound odd but perhaps you are looking at speakers that are TOO refined? Rock music tends not to care about accuracy so much but is much more about attack. I think this is why I preferred the Aria 926's over some much more expensive speakers - they were prepared to sound exciting when you turn the music up. Think of it as buying a convertible car - probably much more fun to be had in a Lotus Elite than e.g. a Rolls because it connects you better to the specific thing you are looking for, despite the Rolls costing far more.

TOBYJUG posted:

Many suggest a long audition.   Sometimes a length of a couple of years is needed to really know what your ears want. Then a few more after upgrading to hear the wood from the trees.

Bravo!

Streamz posted:

My only recent-ish experience with PMC is the Fact.8. The sibilance is also very much apparent in these models, pronounced and edgy highs are apparently a PMC thing. After 15mins already I had enough. The S600 were too soft for me, never heard the S400's.

However, it's all very personal. There are so many factors and characteristics that are in play when selecting speakers, it's almost impossible to suggest a suitable speaker. I mean, when I look at my initial requirements and see what kind of speakers I finally selected and bought, it's miles apart. Turned out that some characteristics I didn't think about initially proved to be crucial in my final choice.

I learned also that when something irritates me in the shop's demo system, it will still irritate me in my house. There's no use in trying something at home if you don't like it in the shop. The character of the speaker will not change at home, so don't bother.             

  

Sorry, but I have never encountered such a "PMC thing" even though I have run Fact 3's (same drivers) for several years.  At no time have I suffered from "pronounced or edgy highs", but like all speakers, they do require running in when new.  If I have a criticism of them it is more a slight lack of weight in heavy orchestral music (eg Mahler), but I have found the treble exceptionally sweet.  I don't think this simply indicates insensitivity to such issues on my part as I found the Fact tweeters much more tolerable than the SEAS Crescendo tweeters in the Kudos C20s that I previously owned and ultimately could not live with.

Roger

Hungryhalibut posted:

On 16 April the sibilance of the 26 was driving you mad. Now you are saying that you are going to get them anyway. Are you that desperate to get rid of the 400s that you'll buy something that drives you mad? It really doesn't sound like a wise decision. 

HH, I am looking at an "end game" speaker at about the price of PMC 25.26/ ProAc D48R. 100% happy with my electronics, cables, supports etc. I have had a much longer go with the D48R, the 25.26 was quite rushed in comparison. In hindsight I perhaps was trying  to be ultra critical noting the short time to demo. and and I did not give them a fair go. I was not 100% convinced the speakers had the 200 or so hours on them the dealer said they did, had to trust their word / estimation I guess.

alanbass1 posted:

Have you not been able to audition ATCs?

Nearest dealer is many, many 100's of miles away, no chance of a demo. at home.

PaulS posted:

I mentioned on 16 April that I had about 60 hours on a pair of PMC Twenty 26 speakers and that the sibilance I had found in some female vocals  prior to this had gone. I've got another 100 or so hours on the clock and these PMCs have really come good now. I favour rock music too as well as female vocalists. Give the PMC time and you should be rewarded.

 

Intersting, I was not 100% convinced with the dealers estimation of run in time. They said 200 hours on the 25.26, but the boxes they were packed in looked mint, the speakers looked (and smelt fresh and in mint condition).  

Penarth Blues posted:

crackie posted:

Well, 180 hours on them now. Honestly I think these are going back too. They do nothing wrong and are clearly a classy speaker. Just a bit boring, looking back at the PMC tewnty5.26, they (ProAc D48R) are just not as exciting. Am I expecting too much ? 

I listen to 90% rock and the ProAc's are not doing it for me. Do they need more hours on them or are they clearly not a "rock music" only speaker ? As it stands now, I'll be taking them back soon and going for the PMC Twenty5.26 and try harder to make the sibilance it showed work in my room/system somehow. Because at the dealer they did not show that character at all.

This may sound odd but perhaps you are looking at speakers that are TOO refined? Rock music tends not to care about accuracy so much but is much more about attack. I think this is why I preferred the Aria 926's over some much more expensive speakers - they were prepared to sound exciting when you turn the music up. Think of it as buying a convertible car - probably much more fun to be had in a Lotus Elite than e.g. a Rolls because it connects you better to the specific thing you are looking for, despite the Rolls costing far more.

This is what I am thinking too. The D48R is a quality,refined, beautifull speaker for sure. Built quality is top shelf and the music flows along so effortlessly, I have had very long sessions with zero fatigue, no matter the volume level. For example, the S400 could get a bit "too much" in the upper mids. after a while in my room/system. However the D48R presentation seems to be a little bit back in it's presentation. The PMC 25.26 was much more imediate and much closer to the performance. Still very undecided if the D48R presentation is what I want/ prefer for rock music. 

Put another 24hours on them. Man these change almost daily in their run in. Today they are fine, more detailed, more punchy, but still very enjoyable with no fatigue. 

On another hi fi forum someone has these and is reporting almost daily changes during the run in process. And he has noticed this up to the 500 hour mark.

I'll given them another 200 hours and see how it goes. As HH mentioned, perhaps a change to the 25.26 would not be wise.

badlands posted:

CRACKIE

You are not alone with your observation of treble problems with PMC speakers, myself and others have heard the same thing you complained about with their tweeters.

When you listen to really refined sounding tweeters you become more aware of  the shortcoming of lesser designs.

Hi, I agree, it's a shame as other than the slightly gritty/resolutionless treble the new PMCs sound good, with a nice tonal balance and none of that mid dip I found with sone earlier  PMC designs.. but that lack of treble resolution just spoils it for me.

crackie posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

On 16 April the sibilance of the 26 was driving you mad. Now you are saying that you are going to get them anyway. Are you that desperate to get rid of the 400s that you'll buy something that drives you mad? It really doesn't sound like a wise decision. 

HH, I am looking at an "end game" speaker at about the price of PMC 25.26/ ProAc D48R. 100% happy with my electronics, cables, supports etc. I have had a much longer go with the D48R, the 25.26 was quite rushed in comparison. In hindsight I perhaps was trying  to be ultra critical noting the short time to demo. and and I did not give them a fair go. I was not 100% convinced the speakers had the 200 or so hours on them the dealer said they did, had to trust their word / estimation I guess.

alanbass1 posted:

Have you not been able to audition ATCs?

Nearest dealer is many, many 100's of miles away, no chance of a demo. at home.

When I got my twenty.23s they were a dealer demo, but nonetheless took about two months to fully open up.  They seemed tight and congested for quite a while, though after a week they were sufficiently good to justify buying them. I never heard any treble issues or this recessed midrange thing that people mentioned, I just thought they were very good speakers on all sorts of music.

I didn't realise that you'd had the 26s for such a short time, and you certainly won't be hearing anything like what they are capable of after a couple of days. I'm supposing you have a room large enough to cope with their deep bass, as this will tend to get deeper as the speakers loosen up. 

Yep this burn in thing is very real IMHO and has almost triped me up. Literally only 24 hours of constant use later and they have gone from OK but not very exciting to wow, I am loving this.

As I said before, on another forum , a guy was seeing up/down run in sound quality with these up to the 500 or so hour mark. I am only half way there with my hours, and mostly very soft background volume levels too. Starting to crank the volume now during run in. 

Glad they are improving. I recently home demoed 20/23 and didn't note any sibiliance or treble harshness. I think the hf unit on the 25 range has been tweaked and have noted in shop demos that the sound more forward / brighter. 

Hope they continue to improve.