Downsizing: does it mean downgrading?

I tried various levels of Naim integrateds, PSUs, ICs, Powerlines and the Stageline in dedicated Naim systems. I found an alternative brand integrated with a built-in phono stage that trumped them all. Fewer boxes, fewer ICs and fewer power cords. Empty shelves on my rack and tidier cable dressing as well. Better system SQ for sure! The icing on the cake is I no longer experience "off days". In the end, far less expensive.

I wouldn't hesitate to downsize. My experience with Naim gear is that the simpler system is better as well.

IB, it is nice to see that the primary process in your mind seems to be questioning things. You must be a good scientist.

Can't comment on downsizing. I'm at the other side of the hill.

Joerand,

Are you able to tell us what this brand was?

Best etc.,

Ghetto Yout'.

I sold my big system because it was financed by an enormous loan, which became impossible to finance, simple as that. 

If I parachuted in the current equivalent, which would be NDS, 555PS, 552 and 300 it's bound to be better than my 272/XPS/250. But I have learned my lesson and really don't care. I now owe not a single penny, and that makes so much difference. 

Last night I put on a new album I'd just bought - Nuit Blanche by Francois Coutourier - and sat there awestruck as the music filled the room, totally lifelike and truly beautiful. If three boxes and some secondhand speakers can do that, I don't need more. One needs to know when enough is enough. 

I've said it many times before, but having had a better setup I no longer hanker after one. I actually have enough cash in savings to be able to buy a 552, 300 and NDS, but I'd rather have the security. 

I hope all that makes sense!!

I recently downsized speakers from atc scm40a to scm19a. No regrets whatsoever. My motivation for downsizing was entirely due to room acoustics, sub 60hz bass issue, and my failed attempts to remedy using specialist acoustic panels.

I have suffered some loss in overall sound quality in that scm40a clearly sounded better throughout the spectrum but the bass boom whas overwhelming and spoiling my enjoyment of the music. The SCM19a is not a million miles away, perhaps even a tad better in upper bass, and a perfect match for my room. I now feel I have a balanced system, room included. I have learned the room is as important as any other part of the system.

joerand posted:

I tried various levels of Naim integrateds, PSUs, ICs, Powerlines and the Stageline in dedicated Naim systems. I found an alternative brand integrated with a built-in phono stage that trumped them all. Fewer boxes, fewer ICs and fewer power cords. Empty shelves on my rack and tidier cable dressing as well. Better system SQ for sure! The icing on the cake is I no longer experience "off days". In the end, far less expensive.

I wouldn't hesitate to downsize. My experience with Naim gear is that the simpler system is better as well.

Hi Joe,

Well its fair point and the term perspective comes into mind. I caught the bug many years ago an ended up with LP12/Aro/Karma/32.5/Hi-Cap/250/Isobariks. That was in 1988. 

Then house move saw the briks go and a few replacement speakers, but the I did nothing for many years apart from a CD player and enjoyed what I had. I bought lp's and cd's and raised young kids. didn't read Hi-fi mags either and there were no forums or internet.

2000 saw a new millennium, another house move, divorce and remarry, better job another house move and a bit more money.

Bugger me upgraditus surfaced again. Rather than treat it with antibiotics I gave in to it via 282/272/CDS3/300/Alleas/KDS/Klimax Kontrol/Twin/Solos/C30's. Have to say the upgrade path was enjoyable but also stressful and one gets into a cycle.

Before I went from Naim to Linn and whilst our day room was being constructed I packed my kit up and reinstated my Creek CD60/Nait2CB/Royd Edens and a bloody good time I had with it. Total music and no nagging thoughts. Set my LP12 up too with it and found the whole delightful.

Finished construction saw the full rig back up with more upgrades etc. My point is , provided you mind is right for it then, decent cost effective (and second hand) is no real downgrade in enjoyment and a lasting one at that.

Kind Regards

RR

Well I'm fortunate in that I owe not a single penny on my system - except in repayment to my own building society account!!!!

With regard to downsizing? Before I pressed go for the NAP 250DR i borrowed a SN2 to see how good it was in comparison to the 282/HC200.  Answer: it was very good but not quite that good. However,  I've said many times and will do so again it's as much about synergy as the performance of individual components.   At the Bristol show (2016) the Neat Iotas with Rega P3/Superuniti was far better than many very considerably more expensive configurations.

But it's all a matter of personal judgement and what's of value to you,  and of course as HH says ensuring your security.

Regards,

Lindsay 

i have 'downsized' a few times in my Hifi adventures -- only to 'upsize' again afterwards -- an expensive (and perhaps silly way of doing things).

quite a few times, i have convinced myself i could' simplify my system by going passive -- last time i sold my NAP300s for 2x135s passive -- and these worked very well -- and then another pair just 'happened by' and before long i was active with 4xNAP135.

i believe one can be musically happy with the less expensive naim gear, definitely. what keeps one going is, to be honest, chasing after some 'holy grail' -- that indescribable quality that pulls you even more into the performance. this process is bound by financial constraints. i used to be guilty about my Hifi till i saw the photographic gear one of my friends has -- including breathtakingly expensive lenses. Fortunately, he (and his wife too) enjoy the outdoor -- and take a LOT of very nice photos.

would i downgrade my current system (other than fr financial reasons) -- short answer NO!!

But of course i fully understand that there are all sorts of reasons why folks downsize -- or 'sidesize' :-)

enjoy...

ken

This is a hobby at the end of the day. As my wife said to me a short while ago, if I wasn't spending money on Hi-Fi and LPs I'd probably have a Porsche sitting on the drive or some other money gobbling obsession. It's all relative and as long as the obession doesn't lead you to overextend your finances then what's the harm? You can't take it with you. I have been guilty over overextended finances in the past so I too have learnt that lesson the hard way.

Marksnaim posted:

 if I wasn't spending money on Hi-Fi and LPs I'd probably have a Porsche sitting on the drive 

You can't have both

Unfortunately not. But then given the amount of the traffic on the roads around here I'm not that bothered anymore.

Halloween Man posted:

---

I recently downsized speakers from atc scm40a to scm19a. No regrets whatsoever. My motivation for downsizing was entirely due to room acoustics, sub 60hz bass issue, and my failed attempts to remedy using specialist acoustic panels.

I have suffered some loss in overall sound quality in that scm40a clearly sounded better throughout the spectrum but the bass boom whas overwhelming and spoiling my enjoyment of the music. The SCM19a is not a million miles away, perhaps even a tad better in upper bass, and a perfect match for my room. I now feel I have a balanced system, room included. I have learned the room is as important as any other part of the system.

 

Thats interesting to hear , my passive 19s work very well in my room that used to get a little boomy with PMC 23s . I thought this was mostly due to their sealed box design but maybe not as they don't go quite as low as the PMCs I don't think ? You may have done me a favour as since I've been bitten by the ATC bug I've been looking longingly at the  SCM50 ASL Actives, they are the coolest looking speakers IMO , they go much lower than the 19s obviously so may not be a simple swap as its all about the room at the end of the day  . 

i'm also considering downsizing / clearing the decks as I'm going to have to box everything up soon as I've got some pretty major building work starting imminently for 4-5 months , as my system is a little bitty at the moment it may be best to sell some / all of it especially my SN2 as pre and start afresh late summer . If I stay passive the 250DR and speakers are definite keepers but going active is playing on my mind even though I don't think I've ever heard an active system . I'd say a 272 or the fabled 372 with appropriate PS  into ATC actives would be a wonderful way to downsize and be an end game . Food for thought .

Definitely an end game speaker. I'd dearly love to downsize my passive SCM40's to active 50's. Room is not large enough, sadly.

Klyde posted:

Definitely an end game speaker. I'd dearly love to downsize my passive SCM40's to active 50's. Room is not large enough, sadly.

Same here I think but smitten with my 19s . 

Klyde posted:

Definitely an end game speaker. I'd dearly love to downsize my passive SCM40's to active 50's. Room is not large enough, sadly.

What is an end game speaker?

Ardbeg10y posted:

Klyde posted:

Definitely an end game speaker. I'd dearly love to downsize my passive SCM40's to active 50's. Room is not large enough, sadly.

What is an end game speaker?

Presumably means happy forever and will never change them.

not surprising with the ATC SM75 dome mid unit, which is the best I have ever heard on anything (PMC used them for a while in their top models until they cloned them, and I have a pair for my project build).

After 16 replies I have already lost any connection with the original question – but often as few as 4 or 5 are enough.

So, to a straight question a straight answer, representing my opinion and nothing more: yes. I have had a totally unserviced Nait 5 and a fully serviced set of: 282, SuperCap, NAP250.2. I loved the Nait 5, but I would be either deaf or stupid if I denied how much better, in terms of power, dynamics, control, detail, authority and veridicity the bigger system sounded.

No doubt there will always be someone who discovers that a single, 1.5 Kg box is able to outperform (ah, we're living in the age of performance, darn this world) a multiple, complex, rich system: that must be the reason why recording studios and radio stations just use £299 Cambridge Audio players and integrates for their job; but in my experience – and Jesus Christ, now I have some, darn me – every time I have downsized, I have lost something. Period.

Best with your quest

M

Ardbeg10y posted:

Klyde posted:

Definitely an end game speaker. I'd dearly love to downsize my passive SCM40's to active 50's. Room is not large enough, sadly.

What is an end game speaker?

In context to this thread the ATC scm50 could well be the perfect end game  speaker , fewer boxes with great performance . 

In context to this wonderful forum an end game speaker would be one you keep for at least 6 months . 

I have been using SBLs since 1989. Love them as much today as I did back then. Defo an end game 'speaker...

The lady wasn't for turning and I am not for downsizing fwiw.

Stu

pete T15 posted:

Halloween Man posted:

---

I recently downsized speakers from atc scm40a to scm19a. No regrets whatsoever. My motivation for downsizing was entirely due to room acoustics, sub 60hz bass issue, and my failed attempts to remedy using specialist acoustic panels.

I have suffered some loss in overall sound quality in that scm40a clearly sounded better throughout the spectrum but the bass boom whas overwhelming and spoiling my enjoyment of the music. The SCM19a is not a million miles away, perhaps even a tad better in upper bass, and a perfect match for my room. I now feel I have a balanced system, room included. I have learned the room is as important as any other part of the system.

 

Thats interesting to hear , my passive 19s work very well in my room that used to get a little boomy with PMC 23s . I thought this was mostly due to their sealed box design but maybe not as they don't go quite as low as the PMCs I don't think ? You may have done me a favour as since I've been bitten by the ATC bug I've been looking longingly at the  SCM50 ASL Actives, they are the coolest looking speakers IMO , they go much lower than the 19s obviously so may not be a simple swap as its all about the room at the end of the day  . 

i'm also considering downsizing / clearing the decks as I'm going to have to box everything up soon as I've got some pretty major building work starting imminently for 4-5 months , as my system is a little bitty at the moment it may be best to sell some / all of it especially my SN2 as pre and start afresh late summer . If I stay passive the 250DR and speakers are definite keepers but going active is playing on my mind even though I don't think I've ever heard an active system . I'd say a 272 or the fabled 372 with appropriate PS  into ATC actives would be a wonderful way to downsize and be an end game . Food for thought .

I would love a room that could take those beauties!

I also thought that ATC 19s don't quite go as low as pmc 20.23 but low enough. I do think the quality of the bass with ATC is better. I'd take quality over quantity every time.

Every room is different and there is no substitute for trying speakers at home. Why don't you start with the 50s if you think you have the room and if they don't work for you then work your way down until you're happy. I would strongly recommend trying the actives. I compared 40 actives to passives and there was a marked step up in all areas, including an even tighter bigger low end, more realistic timbres, better separation, improved low volume response, and smoother, probably due to reduced distortion.

I also demoed the 272 into 40a and it was a superb combination. However, I decided to hang onto my repaired Hugo TT. Problem for me was I needed to trade in scm40a for scm19a - not possible unless I purchased something else - enter my Hugo 2 pre-order . TT was sold privately while used values were still reasonable and I bought a used DAC V1 to tie me over until Hugo 2 arrives. Have to say, as good as the V1 is, I miss the TT.

ken c posted:

 

'sidesize' :-)

Now that's a good word 

Halloween Man posted:

 

I also demoed the 272 into 40a and it was a superb combination. However, I decided to hang onto my repaired Hugo TT. Problem for me was I needed to trade in scm40a for scm19a - not possible unless I purchased something else - enter my Hugo 2 pre-order . TT was sold privately while used values were still reasonable and I bought a used DAC V1 to tie me over until Hugo 2 arrives. Have to say, as good as the V1 is, I miss the TT.

Why change the TT for Hugo 2?

Because I was unable to trade in scm40 for scm19. The high trade in value meant I had to buy something else to be able to trade in to make it worthwhile for the dealer. That's a problem when downsizing or downgrading, the stuff you might want to exchange holds either the same or more value as the stuff you want. I didn't want to sell scm40 privately due to risk of damage in transit.

Hugo 2 because I loved my TT and am familiar with mojo and dave. I fully expect Hugo 2 to be somewhere between Mojo and Dave, that will suit me just fine. Hugo 2 also has a remote control like TT which I need. I've gambled I will prefer Hugo 2 to Hugo TT. Time will tell.

I don't think it was a substantial downgrade by any means. In my case it worked out very well, I too feel better having put my money in the bank than spending it on something that looses so much value.

When I did a recent home audition to decide what I wanted to buy after selling my complete Naim system some years ago,  the SN2 compared very favorably with Naim's more expensive separates, and to my ears surpassed the 202/200 combo. But like others have said, it's such a personal thing what compromises you are comfortable with.

In the end, I am quite happy with my modest system, at least by this forums standards, and I would never go back to where I was a few years ago.

It is possible to downsize yet upgrade if you look in the right direction close enough. 

Wasn't there several 500 owners migrating to the Vitus SIA 025 integrated a few years back ?