Linn Klimax streamer or Naim streamer

Was it better or different? If better, in what way did you find it so?

Presumably you're talking about the Klimax DSM, which is double the price of a 272 + 555, so maybe not surprising really. 

these kind of comparisons are a bit meaningless in the absence of explaining the whole context.

Which speakers

which power amp

which cables

which music

To be fair, comparison should be done against NDS+555

Klinn Klimax vs N272? A bit like top of the range Ferrari vs middle-of-the range Porsche.... not a fair comparison.

As Moussa wrote: Linn Klimax vs Naim NDS (with 555PS) woud be a good comparsion.

As to why Linn manages to cram all into one box, including a power supply and Naim doesn't. Well - Naim can be upgraded with power suppliers, Linn cannot. Different philosophy.

With the Linn Klimax, you can upgrade the main mother boards, so this works for KDS1/2 and now 3 with Katalyst DAC unit. Imho a great investment protection.

When I got my NDS I compared it against the Klimax (I already had a 555PS!), and the decision for me was easy, although the Klimax was also very good.  This was using 282/HiCap/250/nSats.  Personal preference always matters (and differs)

When I say 'klimax', I think I should have said KDS, or whatever the model number of the top linn streamer is!

jsaudio posted:

I recently listened to a Linn Klimax streamer /preamp and compared it to a Naim Nac 272 streamer/preamp with a 555PS and the Linn was significantly better. My question is how does Linn produce a product thats a streamer/preamp and power supply all together in 1 thin box that is that much better than the Naim product with a separate power supply. Why can't Naim achieve the same? What am I missing?

Chrissu is right.

The Klimax DSM streamer has a built in pre-amp, but the Klimax DS range (ie KDS/0, KDS/1, 2 and the current implementation KDS/3) do not. They do have a digital 'volume control' so perhaps could be hooked up directly to a power amp, but there is a caveat. I use my KDS/1 with a Lindemann pre-amp, and I find that disabling the digital volume control on my KDS/1 significantly improves the performance. Anecdotally, the digital volume control on the DS/2 and DS/3 is better, but If I was spending this sort of money on a streaming solution and wanted to hook up directly into a power amp, I would definitely pay the extra and go with the KDSM.

I haven't compared my Linn KDS/1 directly with a NAIM NDS/555PS, but it is by quite some way the best streamer I have heard or used. The latest version (KDS/3) is apparently better still (a completely new DAC) and I may upgrade my streamer to KDS/3 status in time. At the moment I believe the upgrade by Linn is currently a (not insignificant) cost of just over £4,000. However, I am enjoying the KDS/1 so much that I don't really feel the need.     

I guess the KDS/3 is priced at around the same level as the NDS/555PS, and the KDSM (latest version) slightly higher, albeit including a very good pre-amp for a relatively small amount. However, comparing the KDSM to a Naim 272/555PS is a little unfair (cost-wise).

From a second hand perspective, I feel that the KDS/1 is currently the sweet spot in terms of performance for money.   

One point raised by the OP was about the relative size of the products. The Linn Klimax units certainly appeal because of their compact size. I guess one of the issues with Naim Audio is its belief in toroidal transformers. These seem to dictate the box size and probably the need for the power supply to be household in a separate case. I use a Klimax Radikal power supply for my turntable and it's a most attractive little unit. 

well NDS/555 to my ears is better then the Linn Streamer - which seems to be a bit light on the bass by comparison. but to each their own.

I have a great respect to both Naim and Linn. Two different approaches to HiFi and both have products that sound great. This is great for us, we choose what suits our needs. Being a Naimee, I can't but admire the Linn sweet sexy boxes

As someone who doesn't normally "get on" with Linn stuff I will contradict my own opinions by stating that a couple of years back I heard a big Linn system on the end of a Klimax and the reproduction of Buddy Holly's True Love Ways is the most satisfying and convincing piece of music replay I have ever heard. I was stunned. 

Had a home demo of NDX/XPS2 and was not swayed enough to sell my CDS3. Still thinking of taking the plunge but just soooo happy with my CDS3.

Regards,

Steve O.

Hmack posted:

jsaudio posted:

I recently listened to a Linn Klimax streamer /preamp and compared it to a Naim Nac 272 streamer/preamp with a 555PS and the Linn was significantly better. My question is how does Linn produce a product thats a streamer/preamp and power supply all together in 1 thin box that is that much better than the Naim product with a separate power supply. Why can't Naim achieve the same? What am I missing?

Chrissu is right.

The Klimax DSM streamer has a built in pre-amp, but the Klimax DS range (ie KDS/0, KDS/1, 2 and the current implementation KDS/3) do not. They do have a digital 'volume control' so perhaps could be hooked up directly to a power amp, but there is a caveat. I use my KDS/1 with a Lindemann pre-amp, and I find that disabling the digital volume control on my KDS/1 significantly improves the performance. Anecdotally, the digital volume control on the DS/2 and DS/3 is better, but If I was spending this sort of money on a streaming solution and wanted to hook up directly into a power amp, I would definitely pay the extra and go with the KDSM.

I haven't compared my Linn KDS/1 directly with a NAIM NDS/555PS, but it is by quite some way the best streamer I have heard or used. The latest version (KDS/3) is apparently better still (a completely new DAC) and I may upgrade my streamer to KDS/3 status in time. At the moment I believe the upgrade by Linn is currently a (not insignificant) cost of just over £4,000. However, I am enjoying the KDS/1 so much that I don't really feel the need.     

I guess the KDS/3 is priced at around the same level as the NDS/555PS, and the KDSM (latest version) slightly higher, albeit including a very good pre-amp for a relatively small amount. However, comparing the KDSM to a Naim 272/555PS is a little unfair (cost-wise).

From a second hand perspective, I feel that the KDS/1 is currently the sweet spot in terms of performance for money.   

Hmack ,I have had a Linn Klimax KDS/1 since August 2011 ,The NDS was released early 2012 if I remember correctly .I have upgraded to KDS/2 in 2015 and it was a nice upgrade, BUT having now gone for the Katalyst upgrade in Dec 2016 you are in for a HUGE treat when you hear this it is something special .I have travelled huge distances to hear things like the Statement personally(Doug and I had spoken during his trip to NZ earlier in the year) demoed by Doug Graham in Denver US in 2015 along with the full monty NDS 2x 555 and Focal Scala it was very good but very costly.Also had a listen to the Statement NDS 2x555 ovator 600 chord super sarum ethernet cable back home in Christchurch NZ very nice NZ$375,000 for pre & power amps but alas is too rich for me.I like the NDS but feel the shelf space to accomodate that and 2x555 power supplies is just not where I want to go,and here is where the Linn saves you a lot of coin YMMV.But back to the KDS/3 Katalyst there is no shortage of bass or anything I can pin point at this stage (5months) just a much more natural perspective to reproduced music.Enjoy and be happy with what spins your wheels.

These comparisons are all of interest but need a lot more (hisorical) context. A comparison between Klimax DS and NDS/555 is just not enough information.

In Naim terms the NDS has been physically constant but has had at least one (maybe more?) firmware updates. It can be fed by one or two 555s. Then we need to know if those 555(s) were DR or not.

From a Linn perspective there has been KDS/1, KDS/2 and now KDS/3 physical iterations. There have been probably 6 or 7 major firmware releases (including one complete re-write in a new programming language) and many more minor releases. Plus the addition of SPACE which can have major benefits with many speaker / room interfaces. So was SPACE used in the comparison or not?

Add the streamer/pre version into that mix (KDSM, KDSM/1 or KDSM/2) and the comparsions become much more complex.

So the reports on which people prefer have to be very much more precise to have any meaning as many of these differences are not subtle.  Perhaps the exact Linn firmware edition is not necessary, but certainly pre v50 is important to know and you wouldn't want to compare anything running firmware v50 which was not good.

So we need more precise details and its only sensible to compare functional and price points. So NDS/555DR should be compared with KDS/3. A KDSM/2 (which is the latest version and includes a pre-amp) needs to be compared against an NDS/555DR and whichever pre-amp/power supply combo that adds up to about £4 to 5k.

Did a comparison between KDS/1 (pre SPACE) and NDS/555 a few years back, you can search for it. Conclusion was that they were equally musical but presentation very much was along house lines. This was into Naim amps and Kudos speakers.

I think a KDS/3 vs NDS/555DR would have a very different outcome from a musicality perspective, even without using SPACE which would make the gap wider. As I went from KDS/2 to Akurate Exakt a while back, we no longer have the ability to compare the 2 sources easily. However, a comparison that's just as interesting may be along soon.

^Russr, I kind of expect a Linn KDS/3 source into Naim electronics as being some kind of ideal blend, but never had the opportunity to hear this with current products.

Would you mind describing the rest of your system / room size and if you find any benefit from using SPACE or not please?

Steve O posted:

As someone who doesn't normally "get on" with Linn stuff I will contradict my own opinions by stating that a couple of years back I heard a big Linn system on the end of a Klimax and the reproduction of Buddy Holly's True Love Ways is the most satisfying and convincing piece of music replay I have ever heard. I was stunned. 

Had a home demo of NDX/XPS2 and was not swayed enough to sell my CDS3. Still thinking of taking the plunge but just soooo happy with my CDS3.

Regards,

Steve O.

Of the NDX didn't do it for you but the Linn system did, why not try the Linn equivalent to the NDX/XPS in your own system? It might not do it for you either of course!

I HAVE AN NDX and use it has a transport. in the future I guess the ndx/nds are near to the end of their life and the new naims will be similar to the new uniti. the linn range seems to have more range to update./reshape....  every linn demo iive listened to was extremely good but too expensive.  guess new lines will flow off production lines this year from all companies.  I'm testing the auralic at the moment and its on par to the ndx . and the control app is great,fast and stable. let the battle start , good for the customer

Hi Sunbeamgls  ,Well here goes ,I have equipment that will not be familiar to most people on this forum so will list them I hope this is in line with the forum rules ,I don't post often so onward.When I first purchased the KDS/1 I was using Spread Spectrum Tech Ampzilla 2000 mono amps and the Ambrosia pre amp into B&W 801D loudspeakers Bocchino Audio Morning Glory balanced interconnects (can't remember the Spkr cable .As an aside I lost basically all my older hi fi in a series of massive earthquakes that destroyed much of  Christchurch NZ 2011 and my house has been written off as well.

Anyhow the B&W's being a beast to set up in a 5.5 x 6.5 metre room I pulled out and amp I had owned since 2003 A Sachem power amp made by Viganoni & Viganoni in NZ ,it had a tighter grip on the bass all 80 watts of it surprising,that stayed that way for quite some time as I battled my insurance co over my house etc .Then around the same time as the KDS/2 upgrade became  available Franco  Viganoni called me and said I must try his pre amp called the Pure. The pre arrived a few months after the KDS/2 had come back from Scotland in it's up graded form ,I preferred driving the power amps via the pure preamp .Then I got curious and ordered another pair of Sachem mono blocs so I could bi amp the B&W 801D yes it was a more powerful sound but perhaps it lost a little of the musicality that just a single pair had ,anyhow I was using Linn silver between KDS and preamp and some home brew for pre to power and Nordost flatline ? spkr cable .

As the B&W 801D's hadn't been measured for Space ,and were not likely to be and honestly at 260 lbs each they were too big for my room,so I went looking for speakers and a trip to the RMAF in Denver USA in Oct 2015 ,there were quite a few that interested me but cost and size were issues .I heard the Naim 272 XPS 250 and Focal Sopra 1 all DR'd there and though they had a really musical sound I liked it,one of the better sounds at the show (the Wilson monsters next door with Constellation amps and DCS digital, nordost cables left me shaking my head how to get it so wrong).

Getting side tracked I had a limo ride to the Apex Audio guys home based demo rooms and met Doug Graham there to listen to the Statement amps and NDS 2x 555 PS and Focal scala spkrs ,I tried to get Doug to pose next to some valve amps for a photo but he was not to be coerced lol.

I had looked at a line source speaker the big Dali Megaline 3 and liked it ,but it was now a discontinued model and the long ribbon tweeter worried me ,as in the summer months I have the doors and windows open a good gust of wind could be the end of them ,so I crossed them off but was still interested in the tall loudspeaker idea .It could be that as I'm 6'4" tall I like the fact the sound stays consistent either standing or sitting.

Well a speaker called the Amazing Line Source by Bob Carver became my next speaker along with 2 of the Sunfire Sub Rosa sub woofers.These have taken months to run in plus I have gone with some Synergistic Research cables interconnects ,power cables ,power conditioner,spkr cables. Galileo interconnects and pc on the conditioner Atmosphere level 3 HC power cables and Level 3 Analog PC on the Preamp and Level3 Digital PC on the KDS Atmosphere Level 4 spkr cable and pre to power interconnects .The NAS is a Qnap Audioquest Vodka ethernet for NAS to TP link switch Audioquest Diamond from switch to TP link MC100 optical convertor then optical cable to the MC100 powered by 18000 mah battery power pack then Audioquest Diamond ethernet into the Linn KDS3 .I have a mini mac in there also.The Linn is sitting on a home brew shelf 25 mm Keruing Hardwood ply 3mm of lead sheet topped by 9mm MDF ,which is isolated on the largeAirPod's x5 large magnetic isolation devices sitting on 10mm toughened glass on top of a tripod stand filled with lead shot.The pre amp is similarly supported albeit on the smaller isolation AirPods .The QNAp and switch are hooked up to a large UPS .I have not optimised everything yet ,Shoulder reconstruction surgery has slowed me down ,plus I have also been playing with a huge 60kg power amp that I can't move at the moment.I tried the Chord Sarum super ethernet cable on the KDS/2 it was not as clean or transparent as the Diamond AQ but did have some endearing traits but the Music cable was just about to be released so I decided to wait until I have the set up further dialled in, and will try the Music cable then.

I am not using SPACE Op yet as my speakers are not on the list yet ........But my pair being the only ones  outside the US  when I received them last year, I don't believe they will be measured any time soon.But i've started plugging the details into Konfig using the OTHER description so i may have a chance to listen to Space soon.

WOW, I hope this hasn't bored to many of you Naim chaps I don't post very often so my 2 typing fingers are getting tired.I hope that helps some of you to know where I am coming from.My last Naim Item was a ARO arm but that was removed by someone who liked my gear when I wasn't around??????????along with my Spendor SP100 and LP12 etc etc.

sunbeamgls posted:

Steve O posted:

As someone who doesn't normally "get on" with Linn stuff I will contradict my own opinions by stating that a couple of years back I heard a big Linn system on the end of a Klimax and the reproduction of Buddy Holly's True Love Ways is the most satisfying and convincing piece of music replay I have ever heard. I was stunned. 

Had a home demo of NDX/XPS2 and was not swayed enough to sell my CDS3. Still thinking of taking the plunge but just soooo happy with my CDS3.

Regards,

Steve O.

Of the NDX didn't do it for you but the Linn system did, why not try the Linn equivalent to the NDX/XPS in your own system? It might not do it for you either of course!

Sorry, wrote that post in a bit of a rush. I should have written; still thinking of taking the plunge with NDS or Klimax.

I think it's a matter of source first.

In general, I find the Linn streamers superior to Naim's - the Klimax DSM basically pairs their best streamer with a built-in preamp, whereas the N272 doesn't even have Naim's best streamer in there.

Recently I had the chance to compare KDS/Solos to 552/300 (not totally fair, one could say) as analog systems, since vinyl is my main source, and did prefer the Naim one for that. For digital, I just don't think a mid-range Naim preamp can beat the fact that the Klimax DSM is a great source even if "hobbled" by Linn's preamp (which I didn't quite rate as highly in the context above, though it was certainly very capable).

Thanks for all the input. I was just impressed with the fact that Linn can put a streamer/preamp/power supply in 1 thin box and get comparable results to Naim's NDS + PS+pre amp+PS.

jsaudio posted:

Thanks for all the input. I was just impressed with the fact that Linn can put a streamer/preamp/power supply in 1 thin box and get comparable results to Naim's NDS + PS+pre amp+PS.

It is impressive indeed!

Interesting thread.

I guess I'm pretty much old school in that I still believe that Linn and Naim work exceptionally well together - I bought my first LP12 almost 40 years ago and then a 42/110 the week after they came on the market and I've had an LP12 and Naim combo ever since. So, when it came to adding a streamer, driven by the need to kill off CD replay as I'd simply run out of CD storage space in my listening room, I chose to check out both Linn KDS and Naim NDS options and was completely open to either. As far as I was concerned, whichever did it for me would take up residence.

At that stage, the choice was between KDS/1 (meaningless terminology to Naim folk) and NDS/555 (possibly meaningless terminology to Linn folk) and my findings, rather frustratingly, weren't entirely clear cut. In fact I could have happily gone for either; the NDS possibly grooved a little harder while the KDS sounded just a bit more analogue-y. My eventual decision was based on three things: the more robust and reliable Linn software (at the time), the single box design of the KDS, which required one less level of Fraim, and the unexpectedly positive impact of a Chord Sarum interconnect, which delivered all of the missing Naim groove and then some. Nevertheless, I could and would have been happy with an NDS if I'd opted for one on the day.

Since then however there have been a few changes....

The NDS can now be powered by not one but two 555s and those 555s are now DR'd. Sounds good; I've heard the combo a few times and really like it. However, the Linn has gone from KDS/1 to KDS/2 - a really nice upgrade, well worth the money, to the new Katalyst emboldened KDS/3, which, I have to say, is a quantum leap forward (to steal an 80's hi-fi magazine term). It's now well ahead of the NDS. You could add 3 x 555DRs and you wouldn't get close. Linn have also worked hard and consistently on improving the software and the addition of Sound Optimisation is a killer punch. In my room, it makes a big difference.

In the absence of a KDS, I could now live with a Chord Dave but the NDS, good as it may be in isolation, is simply off the pace. Naim really need to pull their socks up and deliver something that competes at the same level. It's been spoken about for a while but hasn't appeared and, when it does, will it compete on price or will it be a Statement-level device with pricing to match? No, as far as I'm concerned, they need to up the NDS with a retrofit-able NDS upgrade at, say £2-3k. Otherwise it won't gain traction.

In the meantime, I remain a happy Linn Naim owner. It's not either/or, it's both. Although things may change in the near future...

Dave J posted:

Interesting thread.

I guess I'm pretty much old school in that I still believe that Linn and Naim work exceptionally well together - I bought my first LP12 almost 40 years ago and then a 42/110 the week after they came on the market and I've had an LP12 and Naim combo ever since. So, when it came to adding a streamer, driven by the need to kill off CD replay as I'd simply run out of CD storage space in my listening room, I chose to check out both Linn KDS and Naim NDS options and was completely open to either. As far as I was concerned, whichever did it for me would take up residence.

At that stage, the choice was between KDS/1 (meaningless terminology to Naim folk) and NDS/555 (possibly meaningless terminology to Linn folk) and my findings, rather frustratingly, weren't entirely clear cut. In fact I could have happily gone for either; the NDS possibly grooved a little harder while the KDS sounded just a bit more analogue-y. My eventual decision was based on three things: the more robust and reliable Linn software (at the time), the single box design of the KDS, which required one less level of Fraim, and the unexpectedly positive impact of a Chord Sarum interconnect, which delivered all of the missing Naim groove and then some. Nevertheless, I could and would have been happy with an NDS if I'd opted for one on the day.

Since then however there have been a few changes....

The NDS can now be powered by not one but two 555s and those 555s are now DR'd. Sounds good; I've heard the combo a few times and really like it. However, the Linn has gone from KDS/1 to KDS/2 - a really nice upgrade, well worth the money, to the new Katalyst emboldened KDS/3, which, I have to say, is a quantum leap forward (to steal an 80's hi-fi magazine term). It's now well ahead of the NDS. You could add 3 x 555DRs and you wouldn't get close. Linn have also worked hard and consistently on improving the software and the addition of Sound Optimisation is a killer punch. In my room, it makes a big difference.

In the absence of a KDS, I could now live with a Chord Dave but the NDS, good as it may be in isolation, is simply off the pace. Naim really need to pull their socks up and deliver something that competes at the same level. It's been spoken about for a while but hasn't appeared and, when it does, will it compete on price or will it be a Statement-level device with pricing to match? No, as far as I'm concerned, they need to up the NDS with a retrofit-able NDS upgrade at, say £2-3k. Otherwise it won't gain traction.

In the meantime, I remain a happy Linn Naim owner. It's not either/or, it's both. Although things may change in the near future...

 

sorry, but it is only your opinion when you say that the linn kds3 is a good step better than the nds/555 dr.  I have compared the too in a dealer place, with naim amps and linn loudspeakers.

I heard sometimes more details with the linn, a little more space, but found the naim more involving with my modern jazz and funk / soul music.  The grip and focus was also better with the naim.  I came with my audioquest diamond and optical bridge also.

But i would not say the nds was best. Perhaps, on hifi context strictly, the linn was better. But it is not enough. You can find 2 or 3 steps better than the linn kds3, on hifi context only:  aurender w20 with dcs / u-clock dac,  melco n1z with emm labs dac or  cad cat audio transport with trinity dac.  the linn will be destroyed in hifi terms.

But sound quality and enjoyment of the music is the most important. Sometimes i regret my last cdx2/ xps2... but only on some tracks. Generally i prefer my nds/555 dr/ unitserve with next uptone audio js2.