Linn Klimax streamer or Naim streamer

Keler Pierre posted:

Dave J posted:

Interesting thread.

I guess I'm pretty much old school in that I still believe that Linn and Naim work exceptionally well together - I bought my first LP12 almost 40 years ago and then a 42/110 the week after they came on the market and I've had an LP12 and Naim combo ever since. So, when it came to adding a streamer, driven by the need to kill off CD replay as I'd simply run out of CD storage space in my listening room, I chose to check out both Linn KDS and Naim NDS options and was completely open to either. As far as I was concerned, whichever did it for me would take up residence.

At that stage, the choice was between KDS/1 (meaningless terminology to Naim folk) and NDS/555 (possibly meaningless terminology to Linn folk) and my findings, rather frustratingly, weren't entirely clear cut. In fact I could have happily gone for either; the NDS possibly grooved a little harder while the KDS sounded just a bit more analogue-y. My eventual decision was based on three things: the more robust and reliable Linn software (at the time), the single box design of the KDS, which required one less level of Fraim, and the unexpectedly positive impact of a Chord Sarum interconnect, which delivered all of the missing Naim groove and then some. Nevertheless, I could and would have been happy with an NDS if I'd opted for one on the day.

Since then however there have been a few changes....

The NDS can now be powered by not one but two 555s and those 555s are now DR'd. Sounds good; I've heard the combo a few times and really like it. However, the Linn has gone from KDS/1 to KDS/2 - a really nice upgrade, well worth the money, to the new Katalyst emboldened KDS/3, which, I have to say, is a quantum leap forward (to steal an 80's hi-fi magazine term). It's now well ahead of the NDS. You could add 3 x 555DRs and you wouldn't get close. Linn have also worked hard and consistently on improving the software and the addition of Sound Optimisation is a killer punch. In my room, it makes a big difference.

In the absence of a KDS, I could now live with a Chord Dave but the NDS, good as it may be in isolation, is simply off the pace. Naim really need to pull their socks up and deliver something that competes at the same level. It's been spoken about for a while but hasn't appeared and, when it does, will it compete on price or will it be a Statement-level device with pricing to match? No, as far as I'm concerned, they need to up the NDS with a retrofit-able NDS upgrade at, say £2-3k. Otherwise it won't gain traction.

In the meantime, I remain a happy Linn Naim owner. It's not either/or, it's both. Although things may change in the near future...

 

sorry, but it is only your opinion when you say that the linn kds3 is a good step better than the nds/555 dr.  I have compared the too in a dealer place, with naim amps and linn loudspeakers.

I heard sometimes more details with the linn, a little more space, but found the naim more involving with my modern jazz and funk / soul music.  The grip and focus was also better with the naim.  I came with my audioquest diamond and optical bridge also.

But i would not say the nds was best. Perhaps, on hifi context strictly, the linn was better. But it is not enough. You can find 2 or 3 steps better than the linn kds3, on hifi context only:  aurender w20 with dcs / u-clock dac,  melco n1z with emm labs dac or  cad cat audio transport with trinity dac.  the linn will be destroyed in hifi terms.

But sound quality and enjoyment of the music is the most important. Sometimes i regret my last cdx2/ xps2... but only on some tracks. Generally i prefer my nds/555 dr/ unitserve with next uptone audio js2.

Yep, that's right, only my opinion.

Personally, too, I wouldn't have compared them with Linn speakers, as I'm not enthralled with any of the recent models - since 'bariks, that is.

I don't quite get the nostalgia about Naim and Linn.

The real naim sound comes from a Naim source (whether digital, or a phono stage like Superline) and Naim amp (and Naim cables throughout)

but then I don't use a Naim source myself 

analogmusic posted:

I don't quite get the nostalgia about Naim and Linn.

 

The real naim sound comes from a Naim source (whether digital, or a phono stage like Superline) and Naim amp (and Naim cables throughout)

 

I don't agree. The real Naim sound starts with the pre-amps.

Keler Pierre posted:

Dave J posted:

Interesting thread.

I guess I'm pretty much old school in that I still believe that Linn and Naim work exceptionally well together - I bought my first LP12 almost 40 years ago and then a 42/110 the week after they came on the market and I've had an LP12 and Naim combo ever since. So, when it came to adding a streamer, driven by the need to kill off CD replay as I'd simply run out of CD storage space in my listening room, I chose to check out both Linn KDS and Naim NDS options and was completely open to either. As far as I was concerned, whichever did it for me would take up residence.

At that stage, the choice was between KDS/1 (meaningless terminology to Naim folk) and NDS/555 (possibly meaningless terminology to Linn folk) and my findings, rather frustratingly, weren't entirely clear cut. In fact I could have happily gone for either; the NDS possibly grooved a little harder while the KDS sounded just a bit more analogue-y. My eventual decision was based on three things: the more robust and reliable Linn software (at the time), the single box design of the KDS, which required one less level of Fraim, and the unexpectedly positive impact of a Chord Sarum interconnect, which delivered all of the missing Naim groove and then some. Nevertheless, I could and would have been happy with an NDS if I'd opted for one on the day.

Since then however there have been a few changes....

The NDS can now be powered by not one but two 555s and those 555s are now DR'd. Sounds good; I've heard the combo a few times and really like it. However, the Linn has gone from KDS/1 to KDS/2 - a really nice upgrade, well worth the money, to the new Katalyst emboldened KDS/3, which, I have to say, is a quantum leap forward (to steal an 80's hi-fi magazine term). It's now well ahead of the NDS. You could add 3 x 555DRs and you wouldn't get close. Linn have also worked hard and consistently on improving the software and the addition of Sound Optimisation is a killer punch. In my room, it makes a big difference.

In the absence of a KDS, I could now live with a Chord Dave but the NDS, good as it may be in isolation, is simply off the pace. Naim really need to pull their socks up and deliver something that competes at the same level. It's been spoken about for a while but hasn't appeared and, when it does, will it compete on price or will it be a Statement-level device with pricing to match? No, as far as I'm concerned, they need to up the NDS with a retrofit-able NDS upgrade at, say £2-3k. Otherwise it won't gain traction.

In the meantime, I remain a happy Linn Naim owner. It's not either/or, it's both. Although things may change in the near future...

 

sorry, but it is only your opinion when you say that the linn kds3 is a good step better than the nds/555 dr.  I have compared the too in a dealer place, with naim amps and linn loudspeakers.

I heard sometimes more details with the linn, a little more space, but found the naim more involving with my modern jazz and funk / soul music.  The grip and focus was also better with the naim.  I came with my audioquest diamond and optical bridge also.

But i would not say the nds was best. Perhaps, on hifi context strictly, the linn was better. But it is not enough. You can find 2 or 3 steps better than the linn kds3, on hifi context only:  aurender w20 with dcs / u-clock dac,  melco n1z with emm labs dac or  cad cat audio transport with trinity dac.  the linn will be destroyed in hifi terms.

But sound quality and enjoyment of the music is the most important. Sometimes i regret my last cdx2/ xps2... but only on some tracks. Generally i prefer my nds/555 dr/ unitserve with next uptone audio js2.

Keller Pierre

Yes - it was Dave J's opinion (shared by more than a few others) that the KDS/3 is "a good step better" than the nds/555DR.

But then is it also "only your opinion" that the combinations that you describe are as good as (never mind better) than either the nds/555DR or KDS/3.

Your assertion that the Linn will be destroyed by these other combinations is extremely dubious and highly unlikely (in my opinion), but I cannot categorically say this with authority because I have not heard any of them. I suspect most readers of this thread will not have heard any of them either. Have you compared them all with the KDS/3? If you have, then you are certainly entitled to your 'opinion'. If not, then your assertions are pure speculation.

I should also add that my choice of components for a demonstration of the KDS/3 (or the nds/555DR for that matter) would definitely not be Naim amps combined with Linn speakers. 

Dave J posted:

Keler Pierre posted:

Dave J posted:

Interesting thread.

I guess I'm pretty much old school in that I still believe that Linn and Naim work exceptionally well together - I bought my first LP12 almost 40 years ago and then a 42/110 the week after they came on the market and I've had an LP12 and Naim combo ever since. So, when it came to adding a streamer, driven by the need to kill off CD replay as I'd simply run out of CD storage space in my listening room, I chose to check out both Linn KDS and Naim NDS options and was completely open to either. As far as I was concerned, whichever did it for me would take up residence.

At that stage, the choice was between KDS/1 (meaningless terminology to Naim folk) and NDS/555 (possibly meaningless terminology to Linn folk) and my findings, rather frustratingly, weren't entirely clear cut. In fact I could have happily gone for either; the NDS possibly grooved a little harder while the KDS sounded just a bit more analogue-y. My eventual decision was based on three things: the more robust and reliable Linn software (at the time), the single box design of the KDS, which required one less level of Fraim, and the unexpectedly positive impact of a Chord Sarum interconnect, which delivered all of the missing Naim groove and then some. Nevertheless, I could and would have been happy with an NDS if I'd opted for one on the day.

Since then however there have been a few changes....

The NDS can now be powered by not one but two 555s and those 555s are now DR'd. Sounds good; I've heard the combo a few times and really like it. However, the Linn has gone from KDS/1 to KDS/2 - a really nice upgrade, well worth the money, to the new Katalyst emboldened KDS/3, which, I have to say, is a quantum leap forward (to steal an 80's hi-fi magazine term). It's now well ahead of the NDS. You could add 3 x 555DRs and you wouldn't get close. Linn have also worked hard and consistently on improving the software and the addition of Sound Optimisation is a killer punch. In my room, it makes a big difference.

In the absence of a KDS, I could now live with a Chord Dave but the NDS, good as it may be in isolation, is simply off the pace. Naim really need to pull their socks up and deliver something that competes at the same level. It's been spoken about for a while but hasn't appeared and, when it does, will it compete on price or will it be a Statement-level device with pricing to match? No, as far as I'm concerned, they need to up the NDS with a retrofit-able NDS upgrade at, say £2-3k. Otherwise it won't gain traction.

In the meantime, I remain a happy Linn Naim owner. It's not either/or, it's both. Although things may change in the near future...

 

sorry, but it is only your opinion when you say that the linn kds3 is a good step better than the nds/555 dr.  I have compared the too in a dealer place, with naim amps and linn loudspeakers.

I heard sometimes more details with the linn, a little more space, but found the naim more involving with my modern jazz and funk / soul music.  The grip and focus was also better with the naim.  I came with my audioquest diamond and optical bridge also.

But i would not say the nds was best. Perhaps, on hifi context strictly, the linn was better. But it is not enough. You can find 2 or 3 steps better than the linn kds3, on hifi context only:  aurender w20 with dcs / u-clock dac,  melco n1z with emm labs dac or  cad cat audio transport with trinity dac.  the linn will be destroyed in hifi terms.

But sound quality and enjoyment of the music is the most important. Sometimes i regret my last cdx2/ xps2... but only on some tracks. Generally i prefer my nds/555 dr/ unitserve with next uptone audio js2.

Yep, that's right, only my opinion.

Personally, too, I wouldn't have compared them with Linn speakers, as I'm not enthralled with any of the recent models - since 'bariks, that is.

the nds/555 dr vs linn kds 3 were compared on the same stuff, just that.  For sound musicality only, i would choose the cd555, for the kind of music i am hearing.

For classical music, vocal and intimiste jazz, i would take the linn kds3.  For all types of music but mostly jazz, and hirez downloads, i prefer the nds.

But i don't think you can say strictly that the kds3 smoke the nds/555dr. Perhaps a melco n1z with trinity statement dac, 3 times more expensive than both, can smoke both: a clarity, prat, bass to die for.... ( a friend has that with naim 552/500 dr and kharma speakers...  when i bring my nds/555 dr i could not believe by the gap, like between a cd5x and cdx2/xps2, 2 clear steps forward).

Hmack posted:

Keler Pierre posted:

Dave J posted:

Interesting thread.

I guess I'm pretty much old school in that I still believe that Linn and Naim work exceptionally well together - I bought my first LP12 almost 40 years ago and then a 42/110 the week after they came on the market and I've had an LP12 and Naim combo ever since. So, when it came to adding a streamer, driven by the need to kill off CD replay as I'd simply run out of CD storage space in my listening room, I chose to check out both Linn KDS and Naim NDS options and was completely open to either. As far as I was concerned, whichever did it for me would take up residence.

At that stage, the choice was between KDS/1 (meaningless terminology to Naim folk) and NDS/555 (possibly meaningless terminology to Linn folk) and my findings, rather frustratingly, weren't entirely clear cut. In fact I could have happily gone for either; the NDS possibly grooved a little harder while the KDS sounded just a bit more analogue-y. My eventual decision was based on three things: the more robust and reliable Linn software (at the time), the single box design of the KDS, which required one less level of Fraim, and the unexpectedly positive impact of a Chord Sarum interconnect, which delivered all of the missing Naim groove and then some. Nevertheless, I could and would have been happy with an NDS if I'd opted for one on the day.

Since then however there have been a few changes....

The NDS can now be powered by not one but two 555s and those 555s are now DR'd. Sounds good; I've heard the combo a few times and really like it. However, the Linn has gone from KDS/1 to KDS/2 - a really nice upgrade, well worth the money, to the new Katalyst emboldened KDS/3, which, I have to say, is a quantum leap forward (to steal an 80's hi-fi magazine term). It's now well ahead of the NDS. You could add 3 x 555DRs and you wouldn't get close. Linn have also worked hard and consistently on improving the software and the addition of Sound Optimisation is a killer punch. In my room, it makes a big difference.

In the absence of a KDS, I could now live with a Chord Dave but the NDS, good as it may be in isolation, is simply off the pace. Naim really need to pull their socks up and deliver something that competes at the same level. It's been spoken about for a while but hasn't appeared and, when it does, will it compete on price or will it be a Statement-level device with pricing to match? No, as far as I'm concerned, they need to up the NDS with a retrofit-able NDS upgrade at, say £2-3k. Otherwise it won't gain traction.

In the meantime, I remain a happy Linn Naim owner. It's not either/or, it's both. Although things may change in the near future...

 

sorry, but it is only your opinion when you say that the linn kds3 is a good step better than the nds/555 dr.  I have compared the too in a dealer place, with naim amps and linn loudspeakers.

I heard sometimes more details with the linn, a little more space, but found the naim more involving with my modern jazz and funk / soul music.  The grip and focus was also better with the naim.  I came with my audioquest diamond and optical bridge also.

But i would not say the nds was best. Perhaps, on hifi context strictly, the linn was better. But it is not enough. You can find 2 or 3 steps better than the linn kds3, on hifi context only:  aurender w20 with dcs / u-clock dac,  melco n1z with emm labs dac or  cad cat audio transport with trinity dac.  the linn will be destroyed in hifi terms.

But sound quality and enjoyment of the music is the most important. Sometimes i regret my last cdx2/ xps2... but only on some tracks. Generally i prefer my nds/555 dr/ unitserve with next uptone audio js2.

Keller Pierre

Yes - it was Dave J's opinion (shared by more than a few others) that the KDS/3 is "a good step better" than the nds/555DR.

But then is it also "only your opinion" that the combinations that you describe are as good as (never mind better) than either the nds/555DR or KDS/3.

Your assertion that the Linn will be destroyed by these other combinations is extremely dubious and highly unlikely (in my opinion), but I cannot categorically say this with authority because I have not heard any of them. I suspect most readers of this thread will not have heard any of them either. Have you compared them all with the KDS/3? If you have, then you are certainly entitled to your 'opinion'. If not, then your assertions are pure speculation.

when i compared the nds with the kds3, at a linn dealer, i preferred the nds. But i have not said it is better than the linn. The gap between the two is marginal, some aspects are better on the linn, other on the naim( i have the nds). 

So when i could listen to the melco/ trinity, vs my nds/555 dr, and heard a big improvement with the melco/ trinity, i can say that it is also better than the linn. But yes, it is my opinion and my ears. 

Linn and naim are not the unique brands on the planet, and certainly not the best.  But i like naim sound. The melco/ trinity is a 50k combo and i can't have it.

Hmack posted:

I should also add that my choice of components for a demonstration of the KDS/3 (or the nds/555DR for that matter) would definitely not be Naim amps combined with Linn speakers. 

it was the dealer system.

Hmack posted:

Keler Pierre posted:

Dave J posted:

Interesting thread.

I guess I'm pretty much old school in that I still believe that Linn and Naim work exceptionally well together - I bought my first LP12 almost 40 years ago and then a 42/110 the week after they came on the market and I've had an LP12 and Naim combo ever since. So, when it came to adding a streamer, driven by the need to kill off CD replay as I'd simply run out of CD storage space in my listening room, I chose to check out both Linn KDS and Naim NDS options and was completely open to either. As far as I was concerned, whichever did it for me would take up residence.

At that stage, the choice was between KDS/1 (meaningless terminology to Naim folk) and NDS/555 (possibly meaningless terminology to Linn folk) and my findings, rather frustratingly, weren't entirely clear cut. In fact I could have happily gone for either; the NDS possibly grooved a little harder while the KDS sounded just a bit more analogue-y. My eventual decision was based on three things: the more robust and reliable Linn software (at the time), the single box design of the KDS, which required one less level of Fraim, and the unexpectedly positive impact of a Chord Sarum interconnect, which delivered all of the missing Naim groove and then some. Nevertheless, I could and would have been happy with an NDS if I'd opted for one on the day.

Since then however there have been a few changes....

The NDS can now be powered by not one but two 555s and those 555s are now DR'd. Sounds good; I've heard the combo a few times and really like it. However, the Linn has gone from KDS/1 to KDS/2 - a really nice upgrade, well worth the money, to the new Katalyst emboldened KDS/3, which, I have to say, is a quantum leap forward (to steal an 80's hi-fi magazine term). It's now well ahead of the NDS. You could add 3 x 555DRs and you wouldn't get close. Linn have also worked hard and consistently on improving the software and the addition of Sound Optimisation is a killer punch. In my room, it makes a big difference.

In the absence of a KDS, I could now live with a Chord Dave but the NDS, good as it may be in isolation, is simply off the pace. Naim really need to pull their socks up and deliver something that competes at the same level. It's been spoken about for a while but hasn't appeared and, when it does, will it compete on price or will it be a Statement-level device with pricing to match? No, as far as I'm concerned, they need to up the NDS with a retrofit-able NDS upgrade at, say £2-3k. Otherwise it won't gain traction.

In the meantime, I remain a happy Linn Naim owner. It's not either/or, it's both. Although things may change in the near future...

 

sorry, but it is only your opinion when you say that the linn kds3 is a good step better than the nds/555 dr.  I have compared the too in a dealer place, with naim amps and linn loudspeakers.

I heard sometimes more details with the linn, a little more space, but found the naim more involving with my modern jazz and funk / soul music.  The grip and focus was also better with the naim.  I came with my audioquest diamond and optical bridge also.

But i would not say the nds was best. Perhaps, on hifi context strictly, the linn was better. But it is not enough. You can find 2 or 3 steps better than the linn kds3, on hifi context only:  aurender w20 with dcs / u-clock dac,  melco n1z with emm labs dac or  cad cat audio transport with trinity dac.  the linn will be destroyed in hifi terms.

But sound quality and enjoyment of the music is the most important. Sometimes i regret my last cdx2/ xps2... but only on some tracks. Generally i prefer my nds/555 dr/ unitserve with next uptone audio js2.

Keller Pierre

Yes - it was Dave J's opinion (shared by more than a few others) that the KDS/3 is "a good step better" than the nds/555DR.

But then is it also "only your opinion" that the combinations that you describe are as good as (never mind better) than either the nds/555DR or KDS/3.

Your assertion that the Linn will be destroyed by these other combinations is extremely dubious and highly unlikely (in my opinion), but I cannot categorically say this with authority because I have not heard any of them. I suspect most readers of this thread will not have heard any of them either. Have you compared them all with the KDS/3? If you have, then you are certainly entitled to your 'opinion'. If not, then your assertions are pure speculation.

i imagine you think that linn lp12 is the best of turntables too...

LP12 is the best turntable. It's axiomatic.

Surely, axiomatik.

C.

it is an axiomatic myth, destroyed in the 80's with turntables like goldmund studio and a long list after.... but perhaps one of the most musical, it is certainly true and shared by a lot of linn users. 

Kellier Pierre posted:

i imagine you think that linn lp12 is the best of turntables too...

I'm not sure if your assumption (or question) is meant to be ironic given the components I have selected to build my own system , but I will answer it.

Actually, no I don't. If you were to look at my profile you would see that my choice of turntable is not Linn. However, I have no doubt that the LP12 can sound very good, and I am similarly very sure that there are many more (and undoubtedly more expensive) turntables that are conceivably better.

I very much agree with your statement that Linn and Naim are not "the unique brands on the planet". I happen to own just one bit of Linn kit (the KDS/1, and just one bit of Naim kit (the Muso QB). I use German amplification and American speakers, and were money no object for me I would probably be looking at manufacturers such as Gryphon, Vitus or MBL (amongst others) for an amplifier upgrade, and possibly manufacturers like Kharma or MBL (amongst others) for a speaker upgrade. That is not to say that I believe that Naim amplification is not excellent in its own right, but simply that my personal priorities in respect of sound reproduction at my price point are better represented by one or two other brands.

However, I will say that until I hear a streaming option that sounds better at no greater price, I will continue to believe that the KDS/3 (and the KDS/1 for that matter) are wonderful bits of kit, and that the KDS/3 is very likely the streamer I may well upgrade to as my 'final'' source.   

Keler Pierre posted:

Dave J posted:

Interesting thread.

I guess I'm pretty much old school in that I still believe that Linn and Naim work exceptionally well together - I bought my first LP12 almost 40 years ago and then a 42/110 the week after they came on the market and I've had an LP12 and Naim combo ever since. So, when it came to adding a streamer, driven by the need to kill off CD replay as I'd simply run out of CD storage space in my listening room, I chose to check out both Linn KDS and Naim NDS options and was completely open to either. As far as I was concerned, whichever did it for me would take up residence.

At that stage, the choice was between KDS/1 (meaningless terminology to Naim folk) and NDS/555 (possibly meaningless terminology to Linn folk) and my findings, rather frustratingly, weren't entirely clear cut. In fact I could have happily gone for either; the NDS possibly grooved a little harder while the KDS sounded just a bit more analogue-y. My eventual decision was based on three things: the more robust and reliable Linn software (at the time), the single box design of the KDS, which required one less level of Fraim, and the unexpectedly positive impact of a Chord Sarum interconnect, which delivered all of the missing Naim groove and then some. Nevertheless, I could and would have been happy with an NDS if I'd opted for one on the day.

Since then however there have been a few changes....

The NDS can now be powered by not one but two 555s and those 555s are now DR'd. Sounds good; I've heard the combo a few times and really like it. However, the Linn has gone from KDS/1 to KDS/2 - a really nice upgrade, well worth the money, to the new Katalyst emboldened KDS/3, which, I have to say, is a quantum leap forward (to steal an 80's hi-fi magazine term). It's now well ahead of the NDS. You could add 3 x 555DRs and you wouldn't get close. Linn have also worked hard and consistently on improving the software and the addition of Sound Optimisation is a killer punch. In my room, it makes a big difference.

In the absence of a KDS, I could now live with a Chord Dave but the NDS, good as it may be in isolation, is simply off the pace. Naim really need to pull their socks up and deliver something that competes at the same level. It's been spoken about for a while but hasn't appeared and, when it does, will it compete on price or will it be a Statement-level device with pricing to match? No, as far as I'm concerned, they need to up the NDS with a retrofit-able NDS upgrade at, say £2-3k. Otherwise it won't gain traction.

In the meantime, I remain a happy Linn Naim owner. It's not either/or, it's both. Although things may change in the near future...

 

sorry, but it is only your opinion when you say that the linn kds3 is a good step better than the nds/555 dr.  I have compared the too in a dealer place, with naim amps and linn loudspeakers.

I heard sometimes more details with the linn, a little more space, but found the naim more involving with my modern jazz and funk / soul music.  The grip and focus was also better with the naim.  I came with my audioquest diamond and optical bridge also.

But i would not say the nds was best. Perhaps, on hifi context strictly, the linn was better. But it is not enough. You can find 2 or 3 steps better than the linn kds3, on hifi context only:  aurender w20 with dcs / u-clock dac,  melco n1z with emm labs dac or  cad cat audio transport with trinity dac.  the linn will be destroyed in hifi terms.

But sound quality and enjoyment of the music is the most important. Sometimes i regret my last cdx2/ xps2... but only on some tracks. Generally i prefer my nds/555 dr/ unitserve with next uptone audio js2.

Hi Keler Pierre, 

I have been fortunate to hear some of those extremely rare DACs and accessories you mention except the Cat and Trinity (which is as rare as rocking horse do do) and very very expensive ,although by some regards highly  capable .

I listened to the top EMM labs in an unfamiliar system but still one that would be regarded as buying a nice house.With the Martin Logan Neolith speaker kimber spkr cable called the Ohm and massive EMM Labs amps  ,but it, or the combo wasn't for me.

DCS and Aurender again highly regarded ,have heard them with wilson Alexia twice different amps and spkrs Constellation top amps and Dan D'Agostino mono Nordost and AQ cables again not for me.

What I'm trying to say is Naim has changed in sound hugely over the years the latest DR had many complaining that it was wrong (I just think it made Naim sound better) history when the CB amp changed to Olive the sound changed same with the Black edition.

Well that is what has happened to the Linn KDS ,I bought the KDS/1 as I didn't like the KDS/0 ,Now that the product evolved over KDS/2 and now KDS/3 with Katalyst it has changed in sound hugely and I think is very complementary to many amps not just Naim .Which I think with the users preferred speakers ,as I believe these are the items with the largest personalities and the items that we have the biggest love hate relationships with.That is just my opinion ,But I see you also have the AQ Diamond and optical bridge so yes we have found common ground ,I'm not a Linn speaker fan ,just not my taste but I admire the design.I also turn off the internal volume control in the KDS/3 as it still seems to sound better to ME that way.

Enjoy what you have and music is the winner .

Hmack posted:

Kellier Pierre posted:

i imagine you think that linn lp12 is the best of turntables too...

I'm not sure if your assumption (or question) is meant to be ironic given the components I have selected to build my own system , but I will answer it.

Actually, no I don't. If you were to look at my profile you would see that my choice of turntable is not Linn. However, I have no doubt that the LP12 can sound very good, and I am similarly very sure that there are many more (and undoubtedly more expensive) turntables that are conceivably better.

I very much agree with your statement that Linn and Naim are not "the unique brands on the planet". I happen to own just one bit of Linn kit (the KDS/1, and just one bit of Naim kit (the Muso QB). I use German amplification and American speakers, and were money no object for me I would probably be looking at manufacturers such as Gryphon, Vitus or MBL (amongst others) for an amplifier upgrade, and possibly manufacturers like Kharma or MBL (amongst others) for a speaker upgrade. That is not to say that I believe that Naim amplification is not excellent in its own right, but simply that my personal priorities in respect of sound reproduction at my price point are better represented by one or two other brands.

However, I will say that until I hear a streaming option that sounds better at no greater price, I will continue to believe that the KDS/3 (and the KDS/1 for that matter) are wonderful bits of kit, and that the KDS/3 is very likely the streamer I may well upgrade to as my 'final'' source.   

you have a wonderful system, i agree. I was ironic but not nasty. If i had owned the kds3 i would be very happy too. 

I don't think that my nds/555dr/unitserve will be my last source because naim will certainly produce one day something better or different. If naim produce a dac 2 with usb imput, i will sell the nds and take certainly a cad audio transport ( and ripper inside) with a naim dac 2, if this combo will be more immediate, involving and dynamic than the nds. The nds is for me a cds3 like machine, and i am searching more a cd555 like source ( for grip, power and involvement).  The kds3 is more like esoteric or accuphase high end cd players, not my favorite sound.  But i don't say less musical... 

All of this is subjective and personal...

RussR posted:

Keler Pierre posted:

Dave J posted:

Interesting thread.

I guess I'm pretty much old school in that I still believe that Linn and Naim work exceptionally well together - I bought my first LP12 almost 40 years ago and then a 42/110 the week after they came on the market and I've had an LP12 and Naim combo ever since. So, when it came to adding a streamer, driven by the need to kill off CD replay as I'd simply run out of CD storage space in my listening room, I chose to check out both Linn KDS and Naim NDS options and was completely open to either. As far as I was concerned, whichever did it for me would take up residence.

At that stage, the choice was between KDS/1 (meaningless terminology to Naim folk) and NDS/555 (possibly meaningless terminology to Linn folk) and my findings, rather frustratingly, weren't entirely clear cut. In fact I could have happily gone for either; the NDS possibly grooved a little harder while the KDS sounded just a bit more analogue-y. My eventual decision was based on three things: the more robust and reliable Linn software (at the time), the single box design of the KDS, which required one less level of Fraim, and the unexpectedly positive impact of a Chord Sarum interconnect, which delivered all of the missing Naim groove and then some. Nevertheless, I could and would have been happy with an NDS if I'd opted for one on the day.

Since then however there have been a few changes....

The NDS can now be powered by not one but two 555s and those 555s are now DR'd. Sounds good; I've heard the combo a few times and really like it. However, the Linn has gone from KDS/1 to KDS/2 - a really nice upgrade, well worth the money, to the new Katalyst emboldened KDS/3, which, I have to say, is a quantum leap forward (to steal an 80's hi-fi magazine term). It's now well ahead of the NDS. You could add 3 x 555DRs and you wouldn't get close. Linn have also worked hard and consistently on improving the software and the addition of Sound Optimisation is a killer punch. In my room, it makes a big difference.

In the absence of a KDS, I could now live with a Chord Dave but the NDS, good as it may be in isolation, is simply off the pace. Naim really need to pull their socks up and deliver something that competes at the same level. It's been spoken about for a while but hasn't appeared and, when it does, will it compete on price or will it be a Statement-level device with pricing to match? No, as far as I'm concerned, they need to up the NDS with a retrofit-able NDS upgrade at, say £2-3k. Otherwise it won't gain traction.

In the meantime, I remain a happy Linn Naim owner. It's not either/or, it's both. Although things may change in the near future...

 

sorry, but it is only your opinion when you say that the linn kds3 is a good step better than the nds/555 dr.  I have compared the too in a dealer place, with naim amps and linn loudspeakers.

I heard sometimes more details with the linn, a little more space, but found the naim more involving with my modern jazz and funk / soul music.  The grip and focus was also better with the naim.  I came with my audioquest diamond and optical bridge also.

But i would not say the nds was best. Perhaps, on hifi context strictly, the linn was better. But it is not enough. You can find 2 or 3 steps better than the linn kds3, on hifi context only:  aurender w20 with dcs / u-clock dac,  melco n1z with emm labs dac or  cad cat audio transport with trinity dac.  the linn will be destroyed in hifi terms.

But sound quality and enjoyment of the music is the most important. Sometimes i regret my last cdx2/ xps2... but only on some tracks. Generally i prefer my nds/555 dr/ unitserve with next uptone audio js2.

Hi Keler Pierre, 

I have been fortunate to hear some of those extremely rare DACs and accessories you mention except the Cat and Trinity (which is as rare as rocking horse do do) and very very expensive ,although by some regards highly  capable .

I listened to the top EMM labs in an unfamiliar system but still one that would be regarded as buying a nice house.With the Martin Logan Neolith speaker kimber spkr cable called the Ohm and massive EMM Labs amps  ,but it, or the combo wasn't for me.

DCS and Aurender again highly regarded ,have heard them with wilson Alexia twice different amps and spkrs Constellation top amps and Dan D'Agostino mono Nordost and AQ cables again not for me.

What I'm trying to say is Naim has changed in sound hugely over the years the latest DR had many complaining that it was wrong (I just think it made Naim sound better) history when the CB amp changed to Olive the sound changed same with the Black edition.

Well that is what has happened to the Linn KDS ,I bought the KDS/1 as I didn't like the KDS/0 ,Now that the product evolved over KDS/2 and now KDS/3 with Katalyst it has changed in sound hugely and I think is very complementary to many amps not just Naim .Which I think with the users preferred speakers ,as I believe these are the items with the largest personalities and the items that we have the biggest love hate relationships with.That is just my opinion ,But I see you also have the AQ Diamond and optical bridge so yes we have found common ground ,I'm not a Linn speaker fan ,just not my taste but I admire the design.I also turn off the internal volume control in the KDS/3 as it still seems to sound better to ME that way.

Enjoy what you have and music is the winner .

 

i agree with you, the other sources than linn and naim are very expensive and some are not to my taste too. I heard soulution amps, wilson, esoteric, boulder, ch precision , goldmund...and had always preferred the naim in general. But i liked very much the lamm...but too much expensive.  The cad / trinity was special to my ears, fabulous...but too expensive also.

For dr upgrade, i have not found problems with it....but have not compared 555 ps with 555 dr on my nds or nap 300. 

In any case, i like the naim sound but not an all naim system( little bright and agressive sometimes). It is why i have an all tube ear yoshino preamp...

Naim statement is a marvelous upgrade in naim company, so i don't think naim audio is decreasing...

and yes, music and enjoyment first!

i just want to add: i don't like linn speakers too, but i had no other choice when i made this linn kds3/ nds comparaison.