Which Gives Most Pleasure, Black Box Upgrades or Expanding Your Music Collection?

Max_B posted:

I think I understood how it works (or worked) for me.

First, I must specify that dealing with music through the week, the months, the year as a professor in a music conservatory, doesn't necessarily favour feeling like listening to more music (and in reproductions, whose quality varies greatly from disc to disc) when at home. And – as it happens in any work environment – even music can be the cause of discomfort, arguments, bad moods if it's the chore of one's work. Only pure listeners, possibly with an innocent and open mind about music, can enjoy listening for extended sessions at home. Professionals can't.

That said, I have been pray to the system vs music trap for a long time, and, as someone may recall, I have changed a number of boxes that now, thinking of it, leaves me incredulous. For all of the time I have been concentrated on gear, taken by the game, deluded by the idea of sound, I have basically been bored by the music I replayed. Nothing was of real interest, and I used to spend minutes in front of the bookshelf containing my CDs trying to decide what to listen to. And, as has been proved by experiments, I ended up choosing the type of music that made my system sound best.

Now I have contrived a simple way to balance things reasonably: I have chosen the equipment by limiting the possibility of upgrading, and adding a small amount of personal dislikes to help keeping the limits impassable; as an example, my rack is made of three shelves and it can host two boxes, the top shelf being voluntarily limited to an aesthetic function; the SuperNait won't be upgraded with an external PSU because I have focalized my dislike on SNAICs and made it a sine qua condition: everything requiring SNAICs will be avoided. The CDX2 is ok as it is, and no XPS will be added because a), I wouldn't know where to put it (the top shelf is off limits), and anything requiring a Burndy will be equally avoided. The thought that a CDP and an integrated amp whose current retails are, respectively, €6990 and €4900 are expected to do their job well without the help of costly addendum has had a part in the process.

I have considered (human flesh is weak and human mind is weaker) those 3rd party PSUs that some use (and come from Israel) because they are small and could be hidden under the lower shelf of the rack; but a), they require SNAICs and fall into the aforementioned category; and, b) I would feel like those who eat soy steaks shaped to look like meat steaks: a fool and a hypocrite. As for the speakers, a 12 years quest has proven that the only sensible choice (scale, extension, design, quality, good sound, being called Naim) was the last release of the S-400, so I went for that. Simple.

This way my system is virtually unchangeable, and I have finally discovered that since I cannot speculate and fantasize anymore on changes, alternatives and upgrades, I finally enjoy music.

(My source of inspiration – I admit it easily – was Haim Ronen's statement that his system is the same since 1999. That made me realize that even in the world of audio a degree of sanity is possible. Thanks, H.)

M

"I would feel like those who eat soy steaks shaped to look like meat steaks: a fool and a hypocrite."

Neither of these words mean what you appear to think they mean.   And frankly if you're eating "meat steaks" that look remotely like soy ones I've got a whole array of sound quality enhancing supplies to sell you.

Neither. And that is interpreting 'black boxes' as any colour (brand). What gives me the greatest pleasure is playing music through my system, which could equally be a new good piece of music or good old music through a new piece of equipment. which of those two would give greatest pleasure would depend simply on which is the better piece of music.

SamC posted:

Max_B posted:

 

"I would feel like those who eat soy steaks shaped to look like meat steaks: a fool and a hypocrite."

Neither of these words mean what you appear to think they mean.   And frankly if you're eating "meat steaks" that look remotely like soy ones I've got a whole array of sound quality enhancing supplies to sell you.

That is a very strong statement statement. Do you know Nigel well enough to question what he wrote, so blatantly?

Yes, I suppose I should have given a third and rather obvious option to my two-option subject question which is simply listening to your historic music collection on an unchanged HiFi system. But I was thinking about how best to move forward - system enhancements vs discovering new music.

Most of us of course do both and the balance will be different depending on our individual needs and wants. Others will already have amassed a large music collection and are happy with their HiFi system so are content with listening to their existing collection on a system they have settled on.

This is the place I want to arrive at but I will always want to try out new music so I don't get bored. There is of course a hard core in each of our music collections (I suspect) that we will never tire of and will happily listen to time and time again. It then becomes a quest to expand this 'golden core' of music we love.

I have to admit, when it has been time for me to think about an upgrade, I have spent a long time researching into things. Getting an idea about what I'm looking to improve, aspects of sound quality that are given from a component. What it doesn't do. What else could I get that I don't know of and perhaps might be cheaper. What it looks like etc.  This though I have found to be quite enjoyable in itself. A process then carried onto audition listening.

With music I don't have anywhere near an invested interest over scouring through magazines and the web to find out what's good out there. Which is something that I should work at maybe. Perhaps I should take out that subscription to ' The Wire' that I've been meaning to do for years.

Almost a routine habit picked up from the days of going through the cd and vinyl shops with some money in my pocket, but not really looking for anything other that what catches my eye or what sounds good from the main desk behind the till.

Music can be had for beer money.  Serendipity has led to many great discoveries. And others that are not so good. Although not the end of the world. Unlike hifi perhaps.

nigelb posted:

Yes, I suppose I should have given a third and rather obvious option to my two-option subject question which is simply listening to your historic music collection on an unchanged HiFi system.

More ground and contingencies could be covered quickly by just giving me a pedantic git award. 

The "reward of repeated listening" excludes improvements after upgrades.

See? Pedant.

nigelb posted:

.

This is the place I want to arrive at but I will always want to try out new music so I don't get bored. There is of course a hard core in each of our music collections (I suspect) that we will never tire of and will happily listen to time and time again. It then becomes a quest to expand this 'golden core' of music we love.

Interesting, because I don't feel that need: Despite the fact that my  11 or 1200 albums is small compared to many people's collections, I can never get bored with it - so many things I keep wanting to play time and time again that it would take me tears to play the rest even once. I don't buy much these days, and I have no compulsion to seek new music - but that said it is certainly enjoyable to discover some great new band or piece of music.

Equipment 100%. I spent the first 40+ years of my life picking my music. I'm odd since I listen to the same 10-20 albums over and over and over again....

Kevin Richardson posted:

Equipment 100%. I spent the first 40+ years of my life picking my music. I'm odd since I listen to the same 10-20 albums over and over and over again....

I don't consider that odd -far from it!

Like I said before, the pleasure is on the music side but that's also where my guilt lurks. In other words, I went way overboard and bought too much music. Now, if J.S. Bach were alive and visiting us he would be rolling his eyes upon discovering that I have more versions of the Goldberg Variations than commandmants given to Moses on Mount Sinai.. That just doesn't make sense. Every time I stand in front of my music collection and realize how many albums were not touched in the last 3-4 years I start fearing again that I am about to be arrested for severe negligence..

Well,  I decided to donate a bunch to our local library so other people can enjoy the stuff and to regain a some balance in my little life I will attend next week the AXPONA Hi Fi show, see if any of the megabucks systems knocks me over.

Kevin Richardson posted:

Equipment 100%. I spent the first 40+ years of my life picking my music. I'm odd since I listen to the same 10-20 albums over and over and over again....

Not odd at all. I too have 10-20 albums that are played over and over again. As a matter of fact my favourite musicians are limited to about 4 or 5 as their music gets played most of the time. I thought I was the odd one out as I can not only listen to the same albums but the same track on repeat for most part of the day, or days.

I have an infinite amount of music since my main source is an 01 

Thar said, there is nothing like the excitement of getting some kind of new equipment. It's been awhile for me tho- last was new speakers some 5 yrs ago. However I'm getting my  135s serviced next week by AV Options - I'm hoping they sound like new boxes when I get them back. 

I view the choice of Black Box upgrades and expanding the music collection initially as not an either / or proposition.  I say initially as for myself both these things tend to happen concurrently until you reach the point where you can be satisfied with whatever goals you had for replay.  At some point in the future when I reach a certain point their will no longer be a desire to upgrade anymore.

Ultimately, the black boxes are merely a tool.  As you move up the food chain the black boxes give smaller and smaller returns compared to the outlay.  Along the way though, the different upgrades has the effect of getting a whole new music collection each time as it sounds better and better each time.  Save one or two more upgrades I am satisfied where I am at and get continual pleasure with ongoing expansion of my music collection.

Kevin Richardson posted:

Equipment 100%. I spent the first 40+ years of my life picking my music. I'm odd since I listen to the same 10-20 albums over and over and over again....

What 20 album are they?

alanbass1 posted:

Kevin Richardson posted:

Equipment 100%. I spent the first 40+ years of my life picking my music. I'm odd since I listen to the same 10-20 albums over and over and over again....

What 20 album are they?

That question sound worthy of a thread in its own right, so I've started one: 20 Most Enduring Regularly Played Pieces

Innocent Bystander posted:

alanbass1 posted:

Kevin Richardson posted:

Equipment 100%. I spent the first 40+ years of my life picking my music. I'm odd since I listen to the same 10-20 albums over and over and over again....

What 20 album are they?

That question sound worthy of a thread in its own right, so I've started one: 20 Most Enduring Regularly Played Pieces

 

 

Now that is a terrific idea for a thread. Nice one IB.

I was trying to recall and compare the kind of thrill I got from hearing the effect of a successful equipment upgrade with that from discovering a wonderful new (to me) artist or album.

The artist discovery thrill is still fresh in my mind as I have recently been trawling the Music Forum on here, sampling on Tidal and in some instances buying CDs of discoveries on line to rip. I have to say a select few new discoveries have blown me away. It is the ability of the music from these new discoveries to connect and move me that creates the thrill. But there is something about their newness and freshness that also thrills and surprises. Bit difficult to describe really. I have to admit there is a slight feeling of smugness from the success of arriving at such a great new find, even though I have more than likely acted on a recommendation of another.

Then there is the thrill and reward from an equipment upgrade. That recollection is a bit hazy as these tend to happen less frequently, usually because they involve a heap of dosh. One thing is for sure, these kind of rewards are multiplied by the number of albums you choose to play. Yes, some uplifts in SQ are more apparent on some albums than on others but you do get this multiplying effect with kit upgrades. The downside of course is that the laws of diminishing returns tend to bite hard as you go up the equipment ladder and you find yourself having to spend ever-increasing sums of money to get your fix from kit upgrades. The other downside is you can get this acclimatisation effect with a new piece of kit where it sounds wonderful for a while but then your brain gets used to the uplift and that initial thrill can diminish over time. And then the cycle continues

So which is more rewarding for me, equipment upgrade thrill or new music discovery thrill? I have absolutely no idea. And when all is said and done there is probably little point in comparing.

As someone said on here, this is a funny old game!

Adam Zielinski posted:

SamC posted:

Max_B posted:

 

"I would feel like those who eat soy steaks shaped to look like meat steaks: a fool and a hypocrite."

Neither of these words mean what you appear to think they mean.   And frankly if you're eating "meat steaks" that look remotely like soy ones I've got a whole array of sound quality enhancing supplies to sell you.

That is a very strong statement statement. Do you know Nigel well enough to question what he wrote, so blatantly?

Adam,

I have lost track of who is addressing who... I understand that SamC is correcting or contradicting me, but I can't follow the rails further. Is the difference between soy and meat so significant?

Anyone who feels like enlightening me is welcome. A happy Sunday to everyone.

Max

Max_B posted:

"I would feel like those who eat soy steaks shaped to look like meat steaks: a fool and a hypocrite."

 

<snip a bunch of quotes>

Anyone who feels like enlightening me is welcome. A happy Sunday to everyone.

Your original quote felt both honest and heartfelt to me, Max_B. If one's values spell vegetarian, what possible legitimacy comes from the trappings of pretending to be eating meat? Hypocritical and foolish indeed.  A dramatic but quite visual and poignant expression of your frame of mind. You were the one sharing an enlightening thought, IMHO. This thread is better for your contribution.

I, on the other hand, will now go and enjoy my Sunday by eating chocolate that is disguised as eggs, fooling myself with something less sinister and contemplating the symbolism of renewal and hope therein... Neither foolish nor hypocritical in this special and very different case!

Regards alan

ps - I've enjoyed your posts in several threads, including the insights on life as a professor of music, the twists and turns of a long journey to satisfy yourself with your system, and thoughts on hearing and appreciating new things Max. I have yet to seek out the podcast on "learning to listen" to some classic compositions but am intrigued to do so. Makes me think of those art gallery appreciation shows with the knowledgeable nun who explained what each painting is hiding and revealing and portraying. Would love an essay on any piece you care to name and follow along on Tidal with your guidance. A big ask, I know, forgive me. a

alan33 posted:

If one's values spell vegetarian, what possible legitimacy comes from the trappings of pretending to be eating meat? Hypocritical and foolish indeed. .

 

With apologies to the OP for this slight digression, and not intending to  detract from the original intent of the reference: the correctness of this statement depends of course on the reason for eating a vegatable product made to look and taste like meat steak (or as close as technology can get) - some people love meat and crave a good steak, but are simply unable to eat them, e.g. through allergy or other sound health reasons. I've always assumed that's what those products are aimed at, rather than those who choose to be vegetarian for reasons such as dislike of the idea of killing animals for food.

Soy isn't made of tortured and murdered animals. Meat is. What taste people choose to make their cruelty free food is utterly irrelevant. It's not a moral objection to the taste or shape of anything. It's a moral objection to causing unnecessary suffering. The existence of nutritionally superior, similar tasting substitutes increase the case not to kill or torture other animals, not the opposite.

Again, I'm not sure what definition of hypocrisy or foolishness is being used here, but it's sure not the usual one.  And quite why it was necessary to throw in some remarkably ill informed insults is also beyond me.  

Is this off topic? Absolutely.  But given the enormous increase in veganism is, given the unfortunate concentration in the wealthier end of the population, likely to increasingly penetrate even hifi, I'd recommend filing offensive asides on the topic in the same box as commenting on the models in 20th century hifi adverts.  An unnecessary diversion likely to result in a robust reaction.

Quite so, Sam. I've eaten no meat for about 35 years, but when we went walking on Good Friday, we took some Quorn mini sausages in our picnic. Very tasty they were. To say that eating them makes me foolish or a hypocrite is just total bollocks. 

Interesting debate on vegetarianism. Any comments on the OP?

I think Florestan put it very well above.

As i recall the OP mentioned Black Boxes, and Music.

Definitely not veggie options?