Focal or ATC Speakers for NAC272/NAP250 DR

Jonn posted:

jon honeyball posted:

i wouldnt buy SL2s now. Time has moved on. Technology in driver design has moved forward a lot. From an engineering point of view, there are some 25 years progress in ATC SCM11 compared to SL2s, and lets not ignore what Magico is doing which is 5-10 years into the future compared to almost every other vendor

SL2s maybe if you want to go active -- but not passive, not today.

How can there be some 25 years progress in ATC SCM11compared with SL2s as SL2s were not introduced until 2002?

You are of course completely wrong about about SL2s driven passively, they more than stand up to comparison with more recent designs as many owners on this site will testify. 

 

I said "some 25 years". Sl2 didn't magically appear from Pluto in 2002. There is r and d time. And they were not exactly cutting edge when they were launched. Let's say 20 years rether than 25 if it makes you feel better

and as for being "of course completely wrong" -- shrug. 

No still doesn't compute as neither did the ATCs appear from mars last year re r&d time so I'll settle for 15 years thank you very much.

I only responded to your original post because:

1. I was planning to mow the lawn this afternoon but it started to rain so was idly scanning the forum for something to do.

2. You dissed the SL2s. 

There's a few NBL's floating around for less than 2K at the mo

i know these were generally well received by those that use them 

lyndon

Magico S7 is over 60 grand.

ATC SCM11 at £1300 is a bit more realistic. And I'm 100% with Jon Honeyball on this, the ATC SCM11 speakers are absolutely superb. For me, they are a class above anything anywhere close in price, and better than many far more expensive speakers. They're also attractive (to me), small enough not to visually dominate the room, and beautifully built.

But most of all, the music . . . 

I like my Naim hi fi very much, and one day I may upgrade it. I may even buy another brand (giving in to my soft spot for Bryston). But I cannot imagine moving away from my ATC SCM11 speakers.

Manu68 posted:

Thank you all  

budget is max 7-8k euro

the ATC SCM 40 are unfortunately too large I just checked.

I only have 31 cm wide.

what is the difference between the ATC SCM 11 and 19?

Both very good speakers in my opinion ( I have been an ATC user for more years than I have owned Naim), both are dynamic, insightful and time well... the 19s have a slightly fuller lower mid tone to them and to me sound preferable and more natural with voices and orchestral music. Under high volume the 19s will perform better due to the combined pro  bass/mid driver, but probably not too much of a benefit for the home environment other than that driver has a superb mid band performance.

Its a shame they discontinued the SCM12, that was the size of the 11 but with the same pro bass/mid driver of the current 19 ... however back then ATC bought in their tweeters and the 12 high end sounded a little subdued in comparison to the current 11.

Halloween Man posted:

Hi newnaim16, its a shame that your dealer did not let you know that the actives perform better at mid/low volume levels when you were assessing the scm40. if i had a large enough room i would take scm40a over scm19a. thin is not a word i would have used to describe scm40 or scm40a. the crossovers of scm40a compared to scm19a mean that the tweeter does not have to work as hard as it's handing over important parts of the frequency spectrum to the mid driver. the 75mm dedicated mid driver in scm40a is what made atc what it is and is where most of the music is at. it's a masterpiece that others like pmc have attempted to copy. the dedicated bass driver in scm40a remains tight and well controlled and extends well below that of scm19a. however, both scm19a and scm40a are superb. the most important consideration should be your room size and acoustics when deciding between the two.

I agree that it was a pity not to have considered the active version(s) at the time. However, it would not be fair to blame the dealer as the one that supplied the Naim equipment does not offer ATC. By the time that we discovered ATC and got to the second (ATC) dealer, we already had our shiny new 250-DR. Anyway, it turns out to be a mute point as as Mrs. NewNaim16 says that the extra width of the actives (as apparent from the online documentation) would be an issue for our environment, which I do agree with.

Considering that the original budget authorisation was to upgrade our legacy Linn equipment with a used SuperUniti and a couple of new tweeters, we ended up in a not-too-bad place 

Manu68 posted:

Thank you all  

budget is max 7-8k euro

the ATC SCM 40 are unfortunately too large I just checked.

I only have 31 cm wide.

what is the difference between the ATC SCM 11 and 19?

I don't know if it is possible, nor the effect it might have, but I guess the SCM40 would be somewhat less than 31cm wide if the spiked plinth wax removed. Might be worth a call to ATC.

excellent ideas guys, thank you soo much. This place is great

I will be contacting ATC right now actually...!

[@mention:1566878603876589] did you every hear the SCM 40 vs 19? if so, what were your impressions?

forget it, width wouldn't work the SCM 40 are too large, my bad :/

Manu68 posted:

forget it, width wouldn't work the SCM 40 are too large, my bad :/

Odd, unless your space is less than you said, or the plinth can't be removed, or sound quality no good without the plinth - I've seen this quoted for what I think is the recent/current model:

Cabinet Dimensions (HxWxD): 980x265x300mm (inc. foot plinth 980x370x305, without spikes grill adds 34mm to depth)

Though of course if critical you must check before commitment!

Ah yes sorry it is definitely the plinth that is posing a problem.

so I do have to ask them.

thank you.

I have now been able to listen to ATC SCM 40 and I was very impressed. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to listen to the active version.

Would removing the NAP 250 DR and go for the ATC active version bring any benefit? 
I want to be sure I have considered all options before I opt for the passive version.

At that price - at any price really - you have to listen, in your own home and armchair for a few days at least. I'm certain they'll both sound great and only you can decide which you like best.

sure [@mention:24797126400677499], but doing this isn't easy to organize and I'm looking to hear others' experiences from this forum. It is clear to me that it doesn't replace my own listening perspective but I'm wondering what the advantages are of going active (besides one less box) vs staying with my 250 DR.

Manu68 posted:

[@mention:1566878603876589] did you every hear the SCM 40 vs 19? if so, what were your impressions?

Not at home... the 40s would be larger than I would want in my listening room. I am also mindful in passives my absolute preference is less drivers i.e. simpler crossover. The 19s are very good, but I find the new 19 mk2 (curved cabinet/inhouse tweeter) requires more space to breath than the older 19 mk1 for some reason . The earlier SCM12 was the cabinet size of the SCM11 but had the legendary pro mid/bass driver that is now in the 19.. I heard my old pair of 12s at a friend's house last weekend and they were still sounding fab, with the older ATC sound of a slightly veiled top end/darker sound.

Ok, fair enough - there are advantages to the shorter path, plus there's an amp for each driver so the 'crossover' is handled upstream. Some say that active is more transparent and dynamic. Others that the extra drivers and amps are less integrated sonically.

The 40s are certainly big - they won't go unnoticed.

I've heard the 19s and liked them a lot. Not sure they're better than, say, passive 19s and a NAP200, but they have something worth hearing. 

I'm a big ATC fan - they're all good. 

Manu68 posted:

I have now been able to listen to ATC SCM 40 and I was very impressed. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to listen to the active version.

Would removing the NAP 250 DR and go for the ATC active version bring any benefit? 
I want to be sure I have considered all options before I opt for the passive version.

I would certainly expect the active version to sound better, for two reasons:

Firstly because the speakers have been designed with that amplification so will be an ideal match (and by their reputation ATC would not compromise their speakers with inferior amplification).

Secondly because active's direct drive of the speaker's drive units avoids the inevitable imperfections of passive crossover.

So if you like the passive version I would be surprised if you didn't like the active more. Of course, any contribution of the 250 to the 'Naim Sound', if different from the seeking of accuracy that ATC is known for would be lost, but people say that the preamp is key for that, so possible less loss than the gain of active ATCs.

This does not address whether they would suit your room, but if the passive would then I see. I reason why the active wouldn't.  If you haven't heard the passives at home, one consideration would be how similar  your room is to where you heard them: concern possibly if your room is sugnificantly smaller, in which case if you can't try actives at home any chance of trying the passives there first? Or could wherever you heard the passives set them up for another hear in a different room?

Good luck with it - those are certainly ATCs I'd be interested in hearing some time. Absolutely wonderful midrange unit!

Neither, try Proac D20 or D30s  

I see the above posts re active speaker, which I owned many of (ATCs included) and there's much hyperbole about the benefits, but in reality its nothing amazing. I can back to a passive system after investing very heavily into active speakers and high-end pre/dac's. IMHO stick with your 272/250DR and have fun trying new speakers!   

Manu68 posted:

I have now been able to listen to ATC SCM 40 and I was very impressed. Unfortunately, I wasn't able to listen to the active version.

Would removing the NAP 250 DR and go for the ATC active version bring any benefit? 
I want to be sure I have considered all options before I opt for the passive version.

I auditioned passive 19s and 40s at a dealers , loved them both but ended up trying the 19s at home and they are still here sounding superb powered by a 250DR . One reason I chose the 19s was because of their size , if I had a larger room I would have tried the 40s at home too , they were superb . 

I had a chat recently with an ATC dealer recently about passive / active and he was a little ambiguous on the matter , I will be boxing up my system for 4 months of building work so was considering selling a few things and starting again in autumn . He advised sticking with my passive 19s , He also felt that the passive SCM40s were a sweet spot in the whole ATC range . Of course another dealer may disagree . 

Don't forget the 250DR is a wonderful amp , I wouldn't want to lose what it brings to the music .

Thanks lot for sharing your experiences, I do appreciate it. This is really helpful.

I will see if I can locate used active versions!