new approach to hifi and a reality check

DrMark posted:

And to the points above - the build quality and long-term customer support are indeed a major part of the "Naim Game" (that not said with any disrespect intended at all) and it is also part of the intelligence behind Naim products, their quality, marketing, and upgrades.

Like any good drug dealer, you don't really have to sell to addicts, just make the product available and let nature take its course!

Funny you mention this

Last year I attended a Statement evening organised by my local dealer at a hotel.It was split into 2 halfs.The first half was the introduction of SL into a 552 -300  Focal Sopra 2 with a NDS as a source.The 2nd half was The Statement amps and Focal Utopia speakers.

Doug Graham from Naim was doing the presentation and said something along the lines of at the start "Your down at your dealers and he says we have got this SL highline would you like to try it over the weekend ?" He than admitted that Naim is addictive and dealers had the right name.Almost like saying our stuff is addictive,you lot are addicts .I really liked his honesty saying this.

He than preceded to add difearant pieces of SL starting with speaker cables threw Highline etc.The 2nd half was Full Statement.Good night.People from Naim where very pleasant to talk to.

It's a interesting new word this Naim World thing.

I suppose most people are happy with their systems and don't want to spend more.But it's nice that you can change cables etc if you do feel there is some more performance to get .

Mark,

off topic completely: how are the news from the cold NorthEast?

M

nigelb posted:

Aussiesteve, brave of you to come back and suggest where you may have taken a wrong turn. Personally I don't recall any of your posts being rude or insulting. Straight-talking yes, nothing wrong with that.

I do agree that communicating in person is very different to communicating online. We all have to learn a certain etiquette which sometimes I will admit I fall short on. I have also learned not to post on the forum late at night after one too many nightcaps. Yes it is late now but I have controlled the nightcaps this evening.

Others have developed on your suggestion that Naim might be preying on our dissatisfactions. I am not sure I subscribe to the notion that Naim's business model is to prey on our perpetual dissatisfaction with our gear by providing a seemingly endless upgrade path, if I understand the argument correctly. Yes, Naim are a business and have to satisfy their owners/shareholders as well as their customers. But ultimately they must have more satisfied customers than frustrated ones in order to survive. That, of course, is if you agree that perpetually frustrated customers will ultimately leave the brand.

I see the Naim strategy in a different light. Us old audiophiles (I realise that I am generalising) are a dying breed. Naim need to attract younger brand advocates into the fold or the brand will die when we die to put is bluntly. So they invent Muso and reinvent the Uniti range. We also see signs of box consolidation (with the 272 and Nova) although I accept that for reasons of SQ compromise this may have its limitations even though the market seems to be resisting the high box count approach. To keep the old faithful happy we see developments like DR and SuperLumina and I would imagine the launch of ever-improving streaming sources going forward.

The efforts to attract new customers and keep existing customers interested has resulted in an elongated product line and has introduced some tempting upgrade options. This could feel like the fine folk of Salisbury might be preying on our weaknesses by offering a list ways to spend ever-increasing sums of money with them. I see it rather differently. It is more about survival in a market where technological advances have changed the dynamics of that market beyond recognition. A market that has a huge new customer base (much of it untapped) and a market where the traditional sector (high end analogue based) is in fact shrinking. Even the lifeblood of this market is changing - how we access our music.

Although it might seem like we are being preyed upon, I can't agree. I will admit to bouts of upgraditis and I know I am not alone. But do you know what, listening to my system tonight I feel I have spent my 'pastime funds' rather wisely. I just need to let the head rule the heart and know where to stop.

+10

Maybe you should forget about the nightcaps! LOL!!!

Allante93!

steve95775 posted:

And forgive the typo's. Here in sunny West Australia we have really good wine. Groovin' to Patricia Barber and imbibing so great Margaret River grape juice.

Rub it in mate!!!  The West is fantastic. My wife and I took 6 months off 20 years ago and traveled up the coast from Perth to Broome and across the Kimberley to NT. We had a ball, wild fishing and beer, our little camper and an old panel van. In fact, we spent Anzac Day (April 25) in Perth and as it's my birthday and I'm a veteran I marched in the parade and then got shit faced with blokes from our SAS. Great state, it's only problem, it has too many Pommie expats It's very reassuring to know though that Naim kit really does have a great shelf life.

Max_B posted:

Mark,

off topic completely: how are the news from the cold NorthEast?

M

An update forthcoming with a photo - but I did have to buy a coat!

Sorry fellow Forumites, but in my experience most Naim owners have no idea this Forum exists. They are blissfully happy with the Naim system as recommended by their expert Naim dealer and have simple sat back and enjoyed years of listening, choosing to invest in feeding their system with new music and enriching their life with live music experiences.

Then there are those who very occasionally, maybe every two years or so, seek advice as to what component they can improve, then those who change a box every six months. Forum dwellers seem to be of the latter group, and there is nothing bad or wrong about that. 

But to say Naim is all about putting you on a never-ending upgrade path forgets the vast majority of Naim customers who are not HiFi buffs but music addicts that have discovered the pleasure Naim audio brings them. And just get on with listening to music with it. In some cases for decades without even unplugging anything!

cdboy posted:

Sorry fellow Forumites, but in my experience most Naim owners have no idea this Forum exists.

That's probably reassuring for the Vervent investors since there are only (I think) about 8,000 members on the Naim forum.

Naim have a very interesting presentation on customer marketing and product strategy. I saw a version of it a few months ago at Salisbury. My summary of it is:

1) with Naim there is a product journey of upgrades and a relative ranking, however each level is designed to provide maximum enjoyment for the price. 

2) Naim are consciously proud about being able to service almost every component made.. a few exceptions like early CDPs exist. They realise this helps maintain second hand prices and differentiation in the market, as well as encouraging brand loyalty

3) Naim know that only a small percentage of their customers follow a journey of upgrades, but those that do they feel are helped by 2). They also realise only a tiny percentage follow or read this forum.

4) Naim evolves it's products and in very recent years has had great success in diversifying its customer base bringing in new customers and sales channels outside of the traditional audiophile community.

5) it's too early with the data Naim has to see how the new customers in 4) relate to the Naim journey in 1), but are hoping to accelerate new customer growth want better SQ with the new Uniti series.

6) Naim are conscious tastes and expectations are changing along with great advances in technology and miniaturisation know how. We see some of this in the new Uniti series ... we may well see this trickle across to the Classic series.

7) Naim have a concept of 'Naim DNA' and its essence is musical enjoyment around pace, rhythm and timing. It believes to be true to the DNA with maximum SQ that full component separation and decoupling is required... and that is why such seperates components are on top of its food chain. However Naim are also better understanding why this is the case technically and are using this knowledge in new architectures such as the new Uniti series to help miniaturisation and integrated component design.

8) so as not to cause confusion between alternate product groups, there will be more focus on sub brand families to help differentiate. So expect to see more focus on terms like Statement Series, Classic Series, Uniti Seties etc

So all in all, exciting times, I personally think Naim have challenges over production and too diverse and confusing portfolio... be interesting to see what if anything changes here

Simon,

Exactly right.

In terms of too confusing a portfolio, I think that's a matter of nomenclature and marketing: In my opinion, the obvious product streaming and branding is based on the amplification...

Statement     (S1)
Classic           (152/155 through to 552/500, including 172 & 272)
Nait                (5si through to SN2)
Uniti              (Uniti Atom through to Uniti Nova)
Muso             (Muso Qb & Muso)

There are then three more groups of items that can be combined with the others
Source components    - for use with components of any series (except the Muso)
Power supplies             - for use with Integrated, Classic and Source components (except 5si and 172)
Accessories                   - cables, Fraim etc.

This forms a more neatly streamed and differentiated hierarchy where it's clear to see how one can either move up the hierarchy within one series or move up the hierarchy to another series.

This also gives a structure to the target markets

Statement     High End, no expense spared
Classic           Audiophiles who don't mind accepting complexity for the sake of performance
Nait               Audiophiles who want simpler or entry level systems (or who have restricted budget)
Uniti              High performance lifestyle market
Muso            Mainstream lifestyle market

indeed - and jump across series - as some in the series will be at equivalent performance levels to products in other series apparently...

Set up a decision matrix for dealers perhaps?

These lists are created based on market segments, which is a way to approach a portfolio. From a technical perspective, the single most complex challenge Naim has, is to get streaming done properly. If its not, it can easily and efficiently end Naim in a year or so. If they get streaming done well on the new Uniti range, this streaming section should be applied to the Classic series etc ... as well.

Wasn't this called Design and / or Production Rationalization?

In my opinion, Naim is on the good way by supporting more market standards. Looking forward to it.

If done well, all the different market segments can be served easily.

Huge posted:

Set up a decision matrix for dealers perhaps?

Its kind of there already:

https://www.naimaudio.com/products

'Which Naim is right for you'

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

indeed - and jump across series - as some in the series will be at equivalent performance levels to products in other series apparently...

Yes, I can see a station where someone wanted to simplify things, going from a CD5XS + NAC152XS + Flatcap + NAP155XS changing to NDX + SN2: Simplifying and getting increased performance at the same time.  Providing a streamed performance matrix could be used to make that option clearer.

and I understand there might be interesting cross overs from the top end Uniti into the middle to possibly more top end Claasic - certainly from a listening session with a prototype Nova I can well believe it

Yes, markets move on and mature.  In my view streaming is just beginning to reach maturity:

Gen 1:   Ad hoc streaming using systems assembled from computers and other generic parts (computer, NAS and external DAC using non-specialist software).

Gen 2:   Streaming hardware products using recognised protocols but with compromised performance - well implemented gen 1 systems still easily outperform these.

Gen 3:   Streaming hardware products with optimised performance; performance is essentially a match for well implemented gen 1 systems (this is where the Naim streamers came in and where the component systems still are).

Gen 4:   Streaming hardware products with increased flexibility and optimised usability (Naim's new Uniti series and products from other manufacturers in the last 2 or 3 years).

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

and I understand there might be interesting cross overs from the top end Uniti into the middle to possibly more top end Claasic - certainly from a listening session with a prototype Nova I can well believe it

You think it can drive speakers as well as a NAP200, with as much tolerance for varying speaker characteristics?  If so that's a remarkable achievement for a class D amp at that price level.

Many class D amps work well with some speakers and fail miserably with others in very unpredictable ways.  It's more than just a mismatch of sonic characteristics, some dynamic loads (aka speakers ) can sometimes seem to stop the amp settling properly, causing a whole collection of odd electronic behaviours.  Damping these modes to get stability also compromises the transient dynamic characteristics of the amp - hence requiring more complex (and more expensive) solutions.

There's a direct analogy to why it's so difficult to make current dumping amps sound good.

Huge posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

and I understand there might be interesting cross overs from the top end Uniti into the middle to possibly more top end Claasic - certainly from a listening session with a prototype Nova I can well believe it

You think it can drive speakers as well as a NAP200, with as much tolerance for varying speaker characteristics?  If so that's a remarkable achievement for a class D amp at that price level.

Many class D amps work well with some speakers and fail miserably with others in very unpredictable ways.  It's more than just a mismatch of sonic characteristics, some dynamic loads (aka speakers ) can sometimes seem to stop the amp settling properly, causing a whole collection of odd electronic behaviours.  Damping these modes to get stability also compromises the transient dynamic characteristics of the amp - hence requiring more complex (and more expensive) solutions.

There's a direct analogy to why it's so difficult to make current dumping amps sound good.

Uniti isn't Class D amplification though - they're all Class A/B...

Cheers

Phil

Phil Harris posted:

Uniti isn't Class D amplification though - they're all Class A/B...

Cheers

Phil

That explains it!  I stand corrected.

Thanks Phil.

Huge posted:

Phil Harris posted:

Uniti isn't Class D amplification though - they're all Class A/B...

Cheers

Phil

That explains it!  I stand corrected.

Thanks Phil.

No worries ...

Phil

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

[Naim] realise only a tiny percentage [of their customers] follow or read this forum.

That's a mercy.

C.