Album Artist ~ (Track) Artist - Recent change in display? Help!

When I updated to 5.1 I needed to tweak the browse tree as it had lost some of my settings. I suspect that you need to do that - something I find a bit of trial and error. 

There has been no change to the Naim app that could cause what you are seeing. 

Thanks for the reply and yes, I agree,  the Asset UPnP browse tree isn't totally straight-forward.

However, I'm struggling to agree with your views as:

• I had a PDF of my old browse tree pre-update which I've used to match to the post-update browse tree (allowing for a couple of new options in the Settings page); and
• nothing has changed re: selecting music, the change is only in the information displayed once music is playing.

I know it's been said many times that the Naim App displays only that info sent to it by the server but I do wonder if both pieces of info (i.e. Album artist and Track artist) are sent and the App is now looking at a different data field.

If you look at the info displayed when you have music playing (either on a control point or on the streamer display) do you see Album Artist (as was) or Track Artist (as now)?

As for changes in the Naim App I'm sure you are aware that this is undergoing some changes, a lot of which are referred to as "meta data editing" - hence my unease at blaming this problem on Asset UPnP without further consideration.

Mitch

It shows album artist when searching for the album, and track artist when the album is playing. It's 'always' done this on my setup.

I'm very new to Asset but the first thing I did (once I'd worked out how) was edit the browse tree - in plain script - to add at the top a line for Album Artist, which then shows albums for each such artist. The 'Artist' line in the browse tree leads to all sorts of confusion and gnashing of teeth...

As far as I can see, the only setting in the Naim app which affects the tags/information displayed (as opposed to settings in Asset) seems to be the A-Z setting, which btw I had not noticed when using Synology/Media Server.

Thank you both for your replies.  I, too, have Album Artist as the top line on the Asset UPnP browse tree (and +\Album as the second line) as this is more user-friendly for my better-half.

And I agree that there appears to be no setting in the Naim App which can be changed ... which leads to my confusion/annoyance.  I can live with this problem as it's not a music selection issue, but it would be nice to see who the Album Artist is rather than have to work it out by cross-referencing the Album (title) against my music database.

I may know that Piano Concerto #17, K453 in G [Bernstein/ColSO] performed by Leonard Bernstein is Mozart but I wouldn't have a clue about

• Études for String Orchestra [Ansermet/OSR] - Ernest Ansermet, or
• Sinfonia à 8 concertanti in A minor, ZWV189 [van Wijnkoop/CB] - Alexander van Wijnkoop, etc.

Until lunchtime last Thursday all I needed to do was press the display button on the NDX hand-control or fire up one of the iPads/iPod/iPhone/Smartphone ...

Not a happy bunny ...

Mitch

I may be missing something here, but surely you can see the album cover in the app, so you know what it is without needing to look anything up.

I put the composer's name at the front of the album title, so that when I go into albums it's automatically sorted by composer. On the nas, the albums are filed under artist, with no other sorting. Once on the nas I never look at them again. All searching is done via the Naim app using Asset. 

I suspect this is how most people do it. I could never manage with the composer as the album artist. 

Yes, HH, but that doesn't quite work ...

• no album cover on the NDX display
• many albums have more than one Artist (i.e. composer) ... e.g. Beethoven's 6th matched with Schubert's 5th; I often confuse the works of Debussy and Ravel and this is not helped by their works often being on the same album

I've spent a phenomenal amount of time ripping, categorising, and allocating works to their Artists (i.e. composer) ... the performer is usually secondary to me and as I now have 3,500+ albums within the Classical genre I don't want to have to incorporate the composers' names into the albums' titles ... I chose to go the other way and incorporate the performers' names (as suffices).

And, of course, I use the Naim App to select music - very occasionally I will do this on the NDX front screen but that is rather cumbersome.  As stated above I have several methods for selecting works:

• for Easy Listening I will usually select Artist / Album then Album (but could use Album Artist then Album)
• for Soundtracks I will usually select Album (but use Album Artist then Album for many of the non-English titles which I can't remember!); and
• for Classical I will usually select Composer then Album (and sometimes Album Artist then Album) ... unless I decide I want a particular performer, such as Nicola Benedetti or Bernard Haitink, etc. in which case I will select Artist / Album then Album

And the point is: up until last Thursday prior to the QNAP update (=> Asset update) I didn't have a problem, the name showing on the display was the Album Artist not (Track) Artist.

Mitch

This does highlight a type of issue us mere mortals can't hope to know - does the responsibility lie with Asset or Naim. I had a similar issue a while ago browsing Various Artist albums - the album listing didn't show the individual track artist. Linn Kinsky did show it. The issue was sorted out by a new release from Asset, but did they simply adapt to an oddity in Naim's application.

Try putting the question to the Asset forum. As many people will testify, Spoon is very helpful.

I'm glad I haven't bothered to rip my classical discs - the tagging issues are way more complicated! 

Why should this all be SO hard...??! Drives me nuts....

I can put any album in my parallel iTunes based system and sort it AND display it any way I so desire – Albums of various artists, albums with guest artists, etc etc....Tinker the simple Sort options for the specific album and thats the way I then 'see' it – listed and displayed by say the 'Album Artist' with each individual track fully displaying any specific alternative artist details, etc.....

When I demoed a US SSD some time back it was the available meta data handling and specifically the subsequent display of that info on the App that really disappointed me (somewhat crazily I still purchased one after a v good deal on new stock came my way....it's sat unused in the cupboard ever since).......I even spent time playing around with the excellent Minimserver with the plan B 'workaround' of ripping via the US (so I had Naim rips) and then using Minim to 'serve' from the NAS after I had additionally tagged the WAV ripped files – madness, but..........I loved the way I could tailor Minim to do virtually anything I desired re display and sorting options, but it would still fall down in certain places when it got through to the Naim App. Numerous conversations with the always helpful Simon at Minim provided assurance that Minim WAS sending out the correct tag info of Album Artist Sort and various other fields etc etc – it WAS all about how the Naim App handled them, or not as the case seems to be....

In my continued stream of madness, I slapped down a deposit on a Core way ahead of release (consigning my unused US to even more of a doorstop, albeit a nice black & green cased one) in the PRESUMPTION that all that was lacking or slightly rudimentary on the US in terms of meta-data etc would all be gloriously rectified in the brand new, designed from the ground up, 'reference' server of 2017.....I still have the whispered quote, from someone in the know whilst the Core was still in R&D, that it was to 'reflect all that was current and could be done in the audio server world...' – When I read the early reports that the Core was shipping with NO meta-data editing capabilities at all and that this 'facility' would be added in mid March (I mean end April...sorry, I mean....) I naturally put the brakes on, after I had picked my jaw off the floor that is....I believe from the dealer a few others have 'paused' too......

I've desired and strived to have my main digital system all Naim from start to finish – rips to speakers....Not fully sure why, perhaps just purity and the belief/habbit that 'all' Naim is the 'best'.....However, the Core and its arguably premature release have increased my feeling this is a upward slope perhaps not worth the effort.....For whatever reason I've wanted to resist omitting Naim doing the serving in my main system (that nagging thought re Naim UpNP 'sounding' better...), but I have to admit I get far more 'user' pleasure simply firing up iTunes with the Remote App and sending the music via ethernet Airplay to one of the mu-sos....I can even shuffle properly...!

Perhaps HH has it right – just kick out the middle man and concentrate on the NAS....

Anyway, Unitiserve and Cores all aside, I'm convinced there are issues with how the Naim App 'sees' and handles correctly embedded meta-data and sort fields – especially when compared to alternative control points using the very same tagged files and displaying/sorting as desired........It's a shame.

Back to my original point – this shouldn't all be so 'hard' and convoluted in this day and age, to simply display data and info in a desired fashion.....For the end user, it should be intuitive.....

Gavin B posted:

This does highlight a type of issue us mere mortals can't hope to know - does the responsibility lie with Asset or Naim. I had a similar issue a while ago browsing Various Artist albums - the album listing didn't show the individual track artist. Linn Kinsky did show it. The issue was sorted out by a new release from Asset, but did they simply adapt to an oddity in Naim's application.

Try putting the question to the Asset forum. As many people will testify, Spoon is very helpful.

I'm glad I haven't bothered to rip my classical discs - the tagging issues are way more complicated! 

I agree with you, Gavin, which is why I've posted the query here ... I shall move forward to the Asset forum now as I haven't had much luck.

I, too, suffered the same Various Artists' problem and this particular issue appears to have been resolved simply because the display name is now the Track rather than Album Artist.  I sometimes thought my problem with Various Artists was due to me using Tag&Rename rather than dBpowerAmp (T&R is so good for tagging, etc. that I haven't wanted to move away from it).  In essence, for Various Artist albums you leave the Album Artist field empty so that the server looks at the (Track) Artist instead.  Not perfect and, for some unknown reason not consistent from album to album, but the result is, those albums for which I adopted this procedure ... now show up as x albums in the Asset directory rather than 1 album with x artists. 

Your statement that "... The issue was sorted out by a new release from Asset ..." could be the reason I now have the reported problem ... Asset is showing the (Track) Artist rather than the Album Artist irrespective of the tagging.  Oh well ...

Mitch

SC posted:

Why should this all be SO hard...??! Drives me nuts....

 

...

Back to my original point – this shouldn't all be so 'hard' and convoluted in this day and age, to simply display data and info in a desired fashion.....For the end user, it should be intuitive.....

I don't use iTunes so can't comment but I recall that Logitech was a great deal more user-friendly.

But: it's the sound that Naim produces which pulls me in ... to spend far too much of my (our!) limited resources on black boxes.  And, as stated, this is a music display problem rather than a music selection problem so, for me, Naim still reigns supreme.  Yes, there may be better individual products, and/or cheaper products, available but whilst that wonderful sound keeps emanating from the speakers I'll stay loyal.

But that won't stop me querying things where something isn't right.  And, who knows, maybe this is not a Naim issue anyway.

Good luck with your Core ... out of my (our) price range!

Mitch

The answer is simply to have the album artist as 'various artists' and then have the individual track artists. It works perfectly in both Asset and the Naim app. 

I'm with HH on that. But only because I had been used to Synology's Music Server using Album Artist as its principal display line. I was somewhat dismayed by Asset's default display but too stubborn to believe it couldn't be improved by my own tinkering. In my case all compilation rips from DB poweramp use "Various" as the album artist. Individual tracks can have individual artists assigned by ticking the "compilation" check-box before ripping. It worked well on my Synology and, although I'm only a week into Asset, it seems to work similarly. Tagscanner rectifies most remaining issues.

I'm sure that 'works' guys, but personally I don't find it ideal.....I mean, if I go into a record store (back in the day when there were some..!) and wanted to purchase a Daft Punk CD then I would look in the D section and under Daft Punk and not in V for Various, regardless of many of the individual tracks on the album featuring 'guest' artists.....It is, after all, Daft Punk's album.....

In my mind, a Cafe del Mar or Buddha Bar album should be listed as them being the Album Artist irrespective of the 30 odd various artists compiled within.....Otherwise, it would be branded Various Artists on the cover, would it not....?

If Crosby & Nash appear on a single track on a Gilmour album, is it suddenly a Various Artists album......?

It's simply down to how you do the tagging. Each track on my Daft Punk albums is by Daft Punk. If you want to have them as the guest names you can do that, and set Daft Punk as the album artist. Perhaps I'm missing something. 

Hungryhalibut posted:

The answer is simply to have the album artist as 'various artists' and then have the individual track artists. It works perfectly in both Asset and the Naim app. 

It does now, but it didn't - see my old thread: https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...87#57602111761843487 with some images from the app.

It works perfectly for SC's situation too - setting Album Artist to Various Artists is just an example. I'm with you - I'd label the Album Artist as Daft Punk, or Cafe Del Mar.  It doesn't matter what Album Artist is set to.

The Compilation tag should also be important. When I'm looking at an album, under what circumstances should it list the Track Artist under each track?  I'd suggest this is done from the Compilation tag.  For the Cafe Del Mar example it would be set to True (or 1) but not for an AC/DC album. I'd probably choose to set it for a Daft Punk album where each track has a 'Featuring' artist too.

Perhaps I'm the one that's missing something Nigel and things have indeed changed..!

The experience I'm mostly referring to and which I found very limited was files being stored/served from a US and how they were then displayed on the Naim App.....I'm well aware of the 'Album Artis't tag and how to use it (hence my iTunes comparison) – my frustration back at the time was that the Naim US (and I'm going to presume the Core is going to be the same) simply didn't push that tag info out to the Naim App....It was only 'top level' tags that were supported, i.e Artist, Album, Genre....so a single artist name for a whole album or, indeed, Various (if you wanted to have individual track artists displayed) .

As I posted back in 2015, Minimserver would indeed serve out the very same files with better display results in the Naim App, though again this wasn't 100% perfect as the Naim App still showed the album as Various when in album view......Things may have improved for all I know, I haven't revisited some of this since then.....

The point I was trying to simply make, in relation to the OP, was that I just find it crazy that this is all still such a 'fight', with lots of work arounds employed etc etc......

If I want to look for a certain image at Getty Images, I can 'look' and search using 100's of likely relevant keywords/info, all leading me to the same image(s).....Why does audio call up have to be so much harder or, more to the point, rudimentary....??!

I think we're all aware – and keen – on the importance of good tagging and embedded meta-data (though Naim seem intent on keeping it as separate file(s)), whether it be audio files, photos, documents, whatever.....but the software has to be able to display and USE that info and, ideally, in a fashion deemed appropriate/desirable by the user.......If only Lightroom or Cumulus could serve music to my Naim kit...!! 

I see what you mean. The Serve didn't record album artist. It also was rubbish as getting decent artwork, often selecting incredibly low resolution versions. Only when I sold it did I discover Minim and Asset, both of which cope admirably. One of the reasons I don't understand why people are so interested in the Core. 

Yep, I think I also mentioned the artwork 'issue' back in that post.....to be honest, regardless of where I store my music and which interface I use, I tend to search and select most of my album cover art myself, trying to find decent original files and at decent sizes....a pain though...

Re the Core, like I said in my first post here, I guess for me personally the 'itch' is/was to have that all Naim thing.....I also like the idea of having a 'multi purpose' box – a network server but also can be pressed into local output to my V1 for headphone use etc etc............BUT, I'm slowly coming round, like a punch drunk fighter, to the 'NAS only' approach you often champion..! Sounds silly, but when I learned of the Core having no meta-data editing abilities (plus the other issues for existing rips etc etc) I was actually mad – to the point I was/am seriously considering changing all the kit to another brand – only things stopping me right now are the inevitable financial losses and the words 'baby and bathwater'.....We'll see what comes from the promised update, but from a few things I've read and some of the 'official' comments made, I'm not sure – it seems what the Core is and isn't going to do has long been decided at HQ........

Anyway....Apologies to the OP if this went slightly off and towards the Naim servers.....I just wanted to comment re my frustrations re the whole meta-data display issue at large.....! 

Having now ripped over 2000 CDs onto the Serve, I don't understand the negative comments re the artwork. Although I've changed perhaps 20 or 30 for higher res versions, in the main the ones chosen are perfectly acceptable for glancing at on the Naim App (and where else or when would you view the album art? It's not something I spend hours gazing at!). By and large I think the Serve does a cracking job, and I've never had an issue with its serving abilities.

Tim

I too ripped over 2,000 albums with a Serve. As you say, the artwork looks ok on the app - it's when you upload them to add them to the 'What are you listening to' thread that you realise how poor some of them are. Some are only 120 by 120, and look awful when larger. I'm still discovering them, two years on. Dbpoweramp' Perfect Tunes can help, but I just fix them as I find them. Totally pointless really, as it makes no difference to how they sound. 

If a track has a guest artist (eg Daft Punk plus xyz) I tend to put the guest artist in the track title. 'Get Lucky feat. pharrel Williams' for example - album artist would be set to Daft Punk for the whole album.

Perhaps I'm too picky....must be the photographer thing or the monitors I stare at all day, but I like the artwork to be spot on...! I also tend to push the same files (or re-encoded versions) around to different devices, Apps and 'delivery' options around the house e.g. Apple TV.....and try looking at 120px jpeg'd artwork on a 12" iPad Pro with a retina screen....Let alone a pre-press monitor! If I was JUST using the Naim App, then 'maybe' (as the art is pretty small unfortunately) but I like to rip/purchase & sort all my files, incl associated artwork , once and then have 'masters' that I can distill any potential need from.....

How hard can it be to have the album art looking great anyway – the 'original' artwork will (should) exist in digital form from the graphic designers/artist/label, surely it should just be included with the audio files....instead of leaving everyone to shift through endless crappy/blurry/dirty/small user scans on Google....!

SC posted:

How hard can it be to have the album art looking great anyway – the 'original' artwork will (should) exist in digital form from the graphic designers/artist/label, surely it should just be included with the audio files....instead of leaving everyone to shift through endless crappy/blurry/dirty/small user scans on Google....!

CDs were intended to be played on CD players, not ripped and stored an a NAS, which is something the record industry would still like to prevent. There's no way they are going to go out of their way to make it easy for us.

Gavin B posted:

This does highlight a type of issue us mere mortals can't hope to know - does the responsibility lie with Asset or Naim. I had a similar issue a while ago browsing Various Artist albums - ...

I am probably missing something obvious but it seems to me that the issue can be sorted out easily by starting another control point like BubbleUPnP, Linn Kazoo, etc. If the problem persists, Asset is the culprit. Otherwise, the Naim app is responsible for the issue.