To Core or not to Core?

Great questions Kevin,I am in a similar spot as you,so hopefully answers to all these questions will start rolling in,I am so close to ordering one,but not sure about many of the things you asked.To add to your questions,has anyone tried running a Core's digital out directly into active speakers...I have a pair of Dynaudio XD 600's.

Kevin Richardson posted:

I have read of problems with Core's software related to meta data editing and population during ripping. I don't need to rip any more CDs so I'm considering adding this to my system.

1) I have read it has two modes BNC out and UPNP. Is it possible to run both simultaneously?

2) Is the BNC mode better than simply plugging in a usb drive to my NDX?

3) Would I need to convert my files to wav for best sound quality? (I currently run JRiver on my Mac and do on the fly conversion to wav from AIFF/ALAC)

4) How does the app work in BNC mode? Does the app push the tracks to the NDX or is the current playlist still managed by the NDX?

I wish I could demo one before buying but my local dealer is unlikely to ever stock one.... So sad.

5) Would I get better sound skipping the NDX and go directly into my DAC?

Any information greatly appreciated.

I do not have a Core but my current understanding is that:

1) The Core UPnP server and the Core player can run simultaneously.

2), 3) Only systematic tests will answer these questions.

4) You control the Core player via a Naim application running on iOS or Android. You connect the SPDIF BNC output of the Core to a SPDIF DAC. Playlist management happens in the Core player and is controlled by the iOS (Android) app.

5) I am not sure if you could and why you would want to have an NDX between a Core and a DAC. You could have a reckocker if you thought that the Core's SPDIF signal is not good enough for your DAC. From a conceptual point of view, the BNC SPDIF optput of the Core is just like the digital output of a CD player.

The NDX is predominantly designed as a streamer using upnp, so why not just get a nas, connect it to the NDX via a switch and off you go. No need to keep the Mac switched on. Total cost £400 rather than £2,000. If you don't have thousands of CDs to rip, the Core is largely pointless. 

I think HH has a very good point. If you like your NDX -> DAC combination, replacing the Mac with a NAS running a decent UPnP server seems a more convenient approach.

Even better, would be replacing the Mac with a Raspberry Pi running MinimServer (http://minimserver.com/), in my view.

If you want to avoid LAN streaming and simplify your system, you could replace the combination Mac + switch + NDX with a single device (or a pair of devices) that implements a good SPDIF output for your DAC.

This could be a Core, a Bryston Pi, a Raspberry Pi with a USB->SPDIF bridge, a Raspberry Pi with a Hifiberry Digi+ Pro hat or any other so-called music server implementing a SPDIF output.

A Raspberry Pi running MinimServer and upmpdcli (https://www.lesbonscomptes.com/upmpdcli/) would give you the same functionalities of the Core (but significantly more flexibility in data transfer, backup and portability) plus internet radio, Tidal and Qobuz internet streaming.

From the point of view of functionality, flexibility and reliability, a Raspberry Pi is a better proposition than a Core, I believe. Whether the SPDIF output of the Hifiberry Digi+ Pro is better or worse than the SPDIF output of the Core has to be assessed by careful comparisons. I would expect a Raspberry Pi together with a high quality USB->SPDIF bridge (on the CA forum, the Mutec MC-3+ Smart Clock USB seems to be very well received) to match the Core w.r.t. sound quality. Whether this is the case or not, has, again, to be assessed through careful comparisons and serious reviews.

A combined store and renderer - as in using the Core's SPDIF output has the advantage over either using the core as a server across the network to NDX (or using a NAS likewise) in that it avoids steaming music across the network, which going by the frequent pleas for help on here seems to cause significant problems for some people, let alone worries about which network cables and switches sound best, that exercise others. But at present the Core is a bit of an unknown quantity in terms of sound quality in this mode -some of the comments on the threads discussing the Core when it was first released seemed promising, but everything became confused and was swamped by the issues with its firmware. The implication is that feeding direct to a DAC it may be at at least as good as NDX doing same, but until some people report their assessments of direct comparisons it s by no means certain.

Other options for store-renderer with high quality output to feed a DAC direct are available if Core doesn't measure up - indeed as you already have a Mac, you could try Audirvana, which in optimised mode is capable of very high quality output (for optimum performance you can use a dedicated a USB bus, and and close down everything else when playing music, but may need an RF isolator with some DACs (Hugo is one), and if DAC hasn't a usb input then a converter - but an isolator/converter like the Gusrard U12 that serves both functions is inexpensive (~£150). However, that would entail retaining your Mac for music, which may be what you are wanting to getvaway from.

Hungryhalibut posted:

The NDX is predominantly designed as a streamer using upnp, so why not just get a nas, connect it to the NDX via a switch and off you go. No need to keep the Mac switched on. Total cost £400 rather than £2,000. If you don't have thousands of CDs to rip, the Core is largely pointless. 

Good question.... I have recently experienced problems with dropouts while streaming 192kHz. My server is on the first floor and I have streamers on 2nd and 3rd floors. I connect my NDX\ND5 with Ethernet into AirPort Extreme routers that extend the WIFi network from the 1st floor. I can't move my Mac and have no space for a NAS near my HiFi.

My thinking is that the Core would improve sound on my speaker system and might have fewer dropouts while listening in my bedroom on 3rd floor.

A drill and some Cat5e cable would be a way cheaper solution.

Well yes, quite. Adding a Core won't improve wifi performance. A wired solution is the way forward if it's a stable network with no dropouts that's the goal. 

Kevin Richardson posted:

 .... I have recently experienced problems with dropouts while streaming 192kHz. My server is on the first floor and I have streamers on 2nd and 3rd floors. I connect my NDX\ND5 with Ethernet into AirPort Extreme routers that extend the WIFi network from the 1st floor. I can't move my Mac and have no space for a NAS near my HiFi.

My thinking is that the Core would improve sound on my speaker system and might have fewer dropouts while listening in my bedroom on 3rd floor. 

Agree both ChrisSU & HH,    I doubt very much that anything other than an ethernet connection will solve 192kHz wireless streaming dropouts,  with & without Core,  that has no effect on wireless performance.  And to HH other post - unless you have a lot of CDs to rip, the Core is pointless.

Kevin Richardson posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

The NDX is predominantly designed as a streamer using ...

Good question.... I have recently experienced problems with dropouts while streaming 192kHz. My server is on the first floor and I have streamers on 2nd and 3rd floors. I connect my NDX\ND5 with Ethernet into AirPort Extreme routers that extend the WIFi network from the 1st floor. I can't move my Mac and have no space for a NAS near my HiFi.

A combined storage + rendering device in each floor would solve your problems. Just setup two identical Raspberry Pi each connected to an external  hdd (or ssd) and you are done. The Pis can be left up 24/7. The only data to be transferred over the wireless at replay time are controls sent from your mobile devices to the devices: select albums, start, stop, pause, empty queue, etc. This kind of data transfer is very lightweight and uncritical.  It would be well supported by your AirPorts. This architechture would eliminate all dropouts, make the playback sound quality independent of what is going on in your wireless LAN and require no NAS, Mac or wires.

ChrisSU posted:

A drill and some Cat5e cable would be a way cheaper solution.

At the first glance yes but ... drilling can easily become a very expensive exercise! It very much depends on one's drilling skills and ... on the walls, of course.

Generally speaking, I agree that if one wants to implement a LAN streaming solution across different floors, then the devices should be better wired.

But I fail to understand why one would want to do so if one does not need multi-room playback and does not want to wire up the devices. Playback from a combined server-renderer is so much easier. And the devices are so small, handy and reliable!

Kevin Richardson posted:

...
I can't move my Mac and have no space for a NAS near my HiFi.

My thinking is that the Core would improve sound on my speaker system and might have fewer dropouts while listening in my bedroom on 3rd floor.
... 

Then you don't have room for a Core there either...  In essence the Core is just a NAS with a CD drive and S/Pdif out, but at the core, it's still just a NAS!

Are you not likely to get less dropouts if the core is feeding your streamer through SPDIF directly,with the music stored on the core hard drive,and the internet connection is only for control with your i-pad? Also, lately there have been a lot of posters claiming the superiority of the sound using the Core to feed a dac directly...that is why i am interested.

nbpf posted:

ChrisSU posted:

A drill and some Cat5e cable would be a way cheaper solution.

At the first glance yes but ... drilling can easily become a very expensive exercise! It very much depends on one's drilling skills and ... on the walls, of course.

Generally speaking, I agree that if one wants to implement a LAN streaming solution across different floors, then the devices should be better wired.

But I fail to understand why one would want to do so if one does not need multi-room playback and does not want to wire up the devices. Playback from a combined server-renderer is so much easier. And the devices are so small, handy and reliable!

This said without experience of it and no idea how good it might be, but it sounds like this is a case for Mojo plus Poly, its matching streaming device, which will take microSD cards, so you could load, say 1GB of music onto a card from your main store, and not have any network issues wireless or wired, smaller and cheaper than a Core, and esily taken to a computer connected to your NAS to change/add music to the card. If you have mote music than will fit on the largest capacity you can buy then you can always have multiple cards for different genres etc, or one in play ise while another is being updated.

nbpf posted:

ChrisSU posted:

A drill and some Cat5e cable would be a way cheaper solution.

At the first glance yes but ... drilling can easily become a very expensive exercise! It very much depends on one's drilling skills and ... on the walls, of course.

Generally speaking, I agree that if one wants to implement a LAN streaming solution across different floors, then the devices should be better wired.

But I fail to understand why one would want to do so if one does not need multi-room playback and does not want to wire up the devices. Playback from a combined server-renderer is so much easier. And the devices are so small, handy and reliable!

As the OP has an NDX and other (Naim?) streamers, he probably wants multiroom, iRadio, Tidal etc as well, so putting them all on a LAN with a shared music store looks sensible to me. 

No quarter posted:

Are you not likely to get less dropouts if the core is feeding your streamer through SPDIF directly,with the music stored on the core hard drive,and the internet connection is only for control with your i-pad? Also, lately there have been a lot of posters claiming the superiority of the sound using the Core to feed a dac directly...that is why i am interested.

Sure, that's why I think that it makes little sense to deploy a LAN streaming solution if you are not prepared to wire your devices. On the other hand, if you are interested in feeding a DAC (or streamer with SPDIF input) through SPDIF directly, I think that a Raspberry Pi (with USB->SPDIF interface or HifiBerry Digi+ Pro) could be a more flexible and less fussy solution than a Core, as I mentioned. Replace "Raspberry Pi" with "Mac Mini", "fitPC", "NUC", etc. depending on the OS and hardware you feel more comfortable with, of course.

ChrisSU posted:

nbpf posted:

ChrisSU posted:

A drill and some Cat5e cable would be a way cheaper solution.

At the first glance yes but ... drilling can easily become a very expensive exercise! It very much depends on one's drilling skills and ... on the walls, of course.

Generally speaking, I agree that if one wants to implement a LAN streaming solution across different floors, then the devices should be better wired.

But I fail to understand why one would want to do so if one does not need multi-room playback and does not want to wire up the devices. Playback from a combined server-renderer is so much easier. And the devices are so small, handy and reliable!

As the OP has an NDX and other (Naim?) streamers, he probably wants multiroom, iRadio, Tidal etc as well, so putting them all on a LAN with a shared music store looks sensible to me. 

Right, but he is contemplating skipping his NDX and directly connecting his DAC to a SPDIF input. Internet radio, Tidal, Qobuz etc. would also be well supported by server+renderer based solutions (albeit not by the Core). If the OP stays with a LAN streaming solution, it would be sensible to wire up his devices, of course. I assume the OP knows this fact.

So two questions remain:
"Do you want to use multi-room?"
"Do you want to use internet streaming services?"

The answer to these has a direct bearing on the optimal solution.

Huge posted:

So two questions remain:
"Do you want to use multi-room?"
"Do you want to use internet streaming services?"

The answer to these has a direct bearing on the optimal solution.

Right, although it seems to me that only the first question is really crucial. Internet streaming services are supported (with different degrees of reliability and comprehensiveness) both by LAN streaming solutions and by solutions based on devices that integrate storage, server and renderer. It is just the Core that sucks in this area. Devices like the Bryston BDP-Pi (or any microcomputer running a UPnP server and upmpdcli) do support at least internet radio and Tidal.

Mike-B posted:

Kevin Richardson posted:

 .... I have recently experienced problems with dropouts while streaming 192kHz. My server is on the first floor and I have streamers on 2nd and 3rd floors. I connect my NDX\ND5 with Ethernet into AirPort Extreme routers that extend the WIFi network from the 1st floor. I can't move my Mac and have no space for a NAS near my HiFi.

My thinking is that the Core would improve sound on my speaker system and might have fewer dropouts while listening in my bedroom on 3rd floor. 

Agree both ChrisSU & HH,    I doubt very much that anything other than an ethernet connection will solve 192kHz wireless streaming dropouts,  with & without Core,  that has no effect on wireless performance.  And to HH other post - unless you have a lot of CDs to rip, the Core is pointless.

used the Delvo plugs for about 12 months - which is OK, then spent the best £500 I could on getting my router (up stairs front room) directly wired to my NDX rear of the house - the improvement in sounds quality was huge - and NO drop outs

also totally agree with all comments on NAS - mine was less than £500

Many suggestions for a NAS,but how many have done a direct comparison of a NAS to an NDX(which he owns) compared to Core to an NDX strictly for sound quality,not price or convenience.I have also been looking at Antipodes DX music servers which have internal storage,SPDIF out or LAN,and a big plus to me is the are on board and use ROON technology.

I used to have a unitiserve. I compared it to a nas running Minimserver and preferred the sound from the nas. 

Mike-B posted:

Kevin Richardson posted:

 .... I have recently experienced problems with dropouts while streaming 192kHz. My server is on the first floor and I have streamers on 2nd and 3rd floors. I connect my NDX\ND5 with Ethernet into AirPort Extreme routers that extend the WIFi network from the 1st floor. I can't move my Mac and have no space for a NAS near my HiFi.

My thinking is that the Core would improve sound on my speaker system and might have fewer dropouts while listening in my bedroom on 3rd floor. 

Agree both ChrisSU & HH,    I doubt very much that anything other than an ethernet connection will solve 192kHz wireless streaming dropouts,  with & without Core,  that has no effect on wireless performance.  And to HH other post - unless you have a lot of CDs to rip, the Core is pointless.

Well my network had close to 0 dropouts for the first 3 years. In the last year or so I get a dropout maybe once a week. Not horrible but... You know...

Also.... To throw another wrench into everything; I'm considering trading in my current system towards a Linn Klimax Exackt system.

Kevin,  no matter what your history was with streaming dropouts,  streaming wireless is not 100% reliable & it gets worse as sample/bit rates increase.  variables with the hub signal strength, changes in local interference all make for difficulties.   

Mike-B posted:

Kevin,  no matter what your history was with streaming dropouts,  streaming wireless is not 100% reliable & it gets worse as sample/bit rates increase.  variables with the hub signal strength, changes in local interference all make for difficulties.   

Thus my interest in moving to a direct connected server like the Core. I'm not at all inclined to run Ethernet in the walls. (I can't justify the expense for headphones in the bedroom.)