To Core or not to Core?

Sorry Kevin, you've lost me, I don't understand what you mean by a direct connected server & how that will help your wireless dropouts

Kevin Richardson posted:

Mike-B posted:

Kevin,  no matter what your history was with streaming dropouts,  streaming wireless is not 100% reliable & it gets worse as sample/bit rates increase.  variables with the hub signal strength, changes in local interference all make for difficulties.   

Thus my interest in moving to a direct connected server like the Core. I'm not at all inclined to run Ethernet in the walls. (I can't justify the expense for headphones in the bedroom.)

If the home wireless network is good enough for file copying, so you can readily get copies of the music you want onto all the different stores, then if it were me, I'd be considering either Core, Melco or Innuos Zenith (I had high hopes for Core when it was announced, but there seem to still be significant questions over various aspects like metadata so make sure you do your homework if trialling is not an option). Or from a more DIY angle because it takes more setting up, however cheaper than some other options if you start with a secondhand one yet capable of excellent performance, and requires good metadata: MacMini running Audirvana. There are other even more DIY options around based on Raspberry Pi and microRendu that sound interesting but require more of an enthusisat approach. Much to be found on some of these on this forum - but the challenge is finding how they sound compared toNDX as reference in terms meaningful to you.

if on the other hand network file copying is not realistic I would look more seriously at the Mojo-Poly model and assess whether that might suit.

Have you tried the newer mesh routers? They seem to be designed to solve exactly your problem. In addition, you can (probably) run a cable from the mesh endpoint to your naim device 

MangoMonkey posted:

Have you tried the newer mesh routers? They seem to be designed to solve exactly your problem. In addition, you can (probably) run a cable from the mesh endpoint to your naim device 

No. I have 5 Airport routers right now. Problem is I can't control which devices connect to which router.

I like this mesh idea. I suppose it is worth a try.

MangoMonkey posted:

Have you tried the newer mesh routers? They seem to be designed to solve exactly your problem. In addition, you can (probably) run a cable from the mesh endpoint to your naim device 

I am not sure mesh is ideally suited for this - I use them at work at they are great for low rate transfers and getting to reach tricky places. However a set of well postioned auto handoff APs operating ESSIDs with a central controller will  be ideal - and to be honest that will allow you to get a wifi service as almost effectively as good as wired connection - reliability certainly won't be an issue.

Too many people judge wifi based on cheap consumer routers with rather poor wifi capabilities built in or terrible repeaters. Wifi and routers really are not best to have collocated with each other.

Well, $299 gets you 3 google units. Can send them back if they don't work out.. 

Mike-B posted:

Sorry Kevin, you've lost me, I don't understand what you mean by a direct connected server & how that will help your wireless dropouts

Kevin is considering connecting a Core (or, equivalently, any device running a player or a server+renderer) via SPDIF to his DAC. This would avoid any data transfer at replay time over the LAN (wired or wireless) apart, of course, from the low bandwidth data transfer between the Core (player or server+renderer) and a control point.

Kevin Richardson posted:

Mike-B posted:

Kevin,  no matter what your history was with streaming dropouts,  streaming wireless is not 100% reliable & it gets worse as sample/bit rates increase.  variables with the hub signal strength, changes in local interference all make for difficulties.   

Thus my interest in moving to a direct connected server like the Core. I'm not at all inclined to run Ethernet in the walls. (I can't justify the expense for headphones in the bedroom.)

I was in a similar situation in a large flat in an old building: running cables into the living room was not an option. I went for a fitPC3 (a miniature, fanless, black mini-PC with an aluminium die cast case) running MinimServer + upmpdcli and a USB->SPDIF interface directly connected to a Naim DAC. I do not regret this choice although, today, I would probably use a Raspberry Pi instead of the fitPC3. In my view the Core is an obsolete design and, if you are not interested in multi-room replay, streaming solutions are unnecessary complications.   

nbpf posted:

Kevin is considering connecting a Core (or, equivalently, any device running a player or a server+renderer) via SPDIF to his DAC. This would avoid any data transfer at replay time over the LAN (wired or wireless) apart, of course, from the low bandwidth data transfer between the Core (player or server+renderer) and a control point.

OK got that,  thanks  

No quarter posted:

Many suggestions for a NAS, but how many have done a direct comparison of a NAS to an NDX (which he owns) compared to Core to an NDX strictly for sound quality,not price or convenience. I have also been looking ...

I have not seen so far any systematic comparison between the Core as a UPnP server and NAS devices running well established UPnP servers like Asset or MinimServer. It is possible that Core users are still dealing with software issues (lack of support for metadata editing, data management issues) and that we will have to wait some more time until serious reviews of the Core start appearing. I would expect the NDX to be fairly source agnostic and the differences between a Core and a NAS to be negligible. But none knows. I anyway would not use a Core in my system even it would turn out to sound slightly better than a NAS or a Raspberry Pi running MinimServer.

Kevin Richardson posted:

Mike-B posted:

Kevin,  no matter what your history was with streaming dropouts,  streaming wireless is not 100% reliable & it gets worse as sample/bit rates increase.  variables with the hub signal strength, changes in local interference all make for difficulties.   

Thus my interest in moving to a direct connected server like the Core. I'm not at all inclined to run Ethernet in the walls. (I can't justify the expense for headphones in the bedroom.)

You say you have an Airport Extreme on the same floor as your streamer. Just connect a Core (or any NAS) to the AE, and you then have a wired connection to your NDX. Both devices will still be using WiFi to connect to the internet, but local streaming will still be Ethernet wired, which is the one that really matters. If you have other streamers in the house, they will still need to access the Core over WiFi, either as standalone players, or for multiroom, which would then still be an option if you want it. 

this is some fun software we use in the lab

Well good news is my local dealer has a core and is going to lend it to me.

Very good to hear,please post your thoughts as soon as you can,as have to make a decision soon.

Here's what I would like to know -

core -upnp vs core bnc  vs USB stick into ndx.

MangoMonkey posted:

Here's what I would like to know -

core -upnp vs core bnc  vs USB stick into ndx.

This is a comparison that every Core and NDX owner (and every Naim dealer) should indeed be able to provide. I guess the results will depend on the cable used to for the SPDIF connection, on the LAN and, hopefully to a minor extent, on the USB stick.

Kevin Richardson posted:

Well good news is my local dealer has a core and is going to lend it to me.

Great, have fun and let us know your findings! Best, nbpf

ChrisSU posted:

Kevin Richardson posted:

Mike-B posted:

Kevin,  no matter what your history was with streaming dropouts,  streaming wireless is not 100% reliable & it gets worse as sample/bit rates increase.  variables with the hub signal strength, changes in local interference all make for difficulties.   

Thus my interest in moving to a direct connected server like the Core. I'm not at all inclined to run Ethernet in the walls. (I can't justify the expense for headphones in the bedroom.)

You say you have an Airport Extreme on the same floor as your streamer. Just connect a Core (or any NAS) to the AE, and you then have a wired connection to your NDX. Both devices will still be using WiFi to connect to the internet, but local streaming will still be Ethernet wired, which is the one that really matters. If you have other streamers in the house, they will still need to access the Core over WiFi, either as standalone players, or for multiroom, which would then still be an option if you want it. 

Very good point! And if space and money are issues, you could also replace the Core with a Pi running MinimServer. As a bonus, this would also give you intelligent browsing, index customizability and fuss-free software. 

Did some comparisons - i still prefer the unitiserv over asset upnp and minim server running in the NAS. Minim sounds better than asset, but just somerhing more right with the unitiserv sounds ... more of a timing aspect than the sound itself ..

nbpf posted:

No quarter posted:

Many suggestions for a NAS, but how many have done a direct comparison of a NAS to an NDX (which he owns) compared to Core to an NDX strictly for sound quality,not price or convenience. I have also been looking ...

I have not seen so far any systematic comparison between the Core as a UPnP server and NAS devices running well established UPnP servers like Asset or MinimServer. It is possible that Core users are still dealing with software issues (lack of support for metadata editing, data management issues) and that we will have to wait some more time until serious reviews of the Core start appearing. I would expect the NDX to be fairly source agnostic and the differences between a Core and a NAS to be negligible. But none knows. I anyway would not use a Core in my system even it would turn out to sound slightly better than a NAS or a Raspberry Pi running MinimServer.

I haven't compared the Core yet from a SQ and then measurement point of view, but I have compared ReadyDLNA, Asset and MinimServer running on various platforms and have heard subtle differences in Sound Performance and measured differences between the server/platform combinations. I used the NDX as my SQ measure, and Wireshark as my technical data measure. I have posted results and graphs on the beta forum as my tests referred to  beta firmware builds

what is interesting that servers like MinimServer don't perform the same across different platforms. As for the differences, we are not talking bit perfect sample data etc... that is all identical. But what I am talking about and measuring are differences  in data flow dynamics and frame timings during transfer. This I suspect is causing processing different  'noise' profiles in the network stack affecting performance.. not dissimilar to the sound differences you sometimes  hear between WAV and FLAC.

Now I am also acutely aware these sound differences are a product of the current Naim streamer architecture. I understand potentially these results and differences will change with the new architecture developed by Naim for the new Uniti range. I understand these consume media across the network in a different way from the current Classic series streamers and streamerNACs.

If anyone is interested the best sounding and most consistently timed frame transfer I found from my various combinations was ReadDLNA running on a Netgear ReadyNAS 102 ... unfortunately it's the least capable media server. Luckily the SQ differences are subtle.

nbpf posted:

ChrisSU posted:

Kevin Richardson posted:

Mike-B posted:

Kevin,  no matter what your history was with streaming dropouts,  streaming wireless is not 100% reliable & it gets worse as sample/bit rates increase.  variables with the hub signal strength, changes in local interference all make for difficulties.   

Thus my interest in moving to a direct connected server like the Core. I'm not at all inclined to run Ethernet in the walls. (I can't justify the expense for headphones in the bedroom.)

You say you have an Airport Extreme on the same floor as your streamer. Just connect a Core (or any NAS) to the AE, and you then have a wired connection to your NDX. Both devices will still be using WiFi to connect to the internet, but local streaming will still be Ethernet wired, which is the one that really matters. If you have other streamers in the house, they will still need to access the Core over WiFi, either as standalone players, or for multiroom, which would then still be an option if you want it. 

Very good point! And if space and money are issues, you could also replace the Core with a Pi running MinimServer. As a bonus, this would also give you intelligent browsing, index customizability and fuss-free software. 

For the sake of clarity, am I right in understanding that minimserver is a UPnP server and not a renderer, so can only substitute for Core's ethernet output (i.e. network, though presumably can be a direct one), so still needing the OP to retain the NDX for rendering if a separate DAC is used?

Innocent Bystander posted:

nbpf posted:

ChrisSU posted:

Kevin Richardson posted:

Mike-B posted:

Kevin,  no matter what your history was with streaming dropouts,  streaming wireless is not 100% reliable & it gets worse as sample/bit rates increase.  variables with the hub signal strength, changes in local interference all make for difficulties.   

Thus my interest in moving to a direct connected server like the Core. I'm not at all inclined to run Ethernet in the walls. (I can't justify the expense for headphones in the bedroom.)

You say you have an Airport Extreme on the same floor as your streamer. Just connect a Core (or any NAS) to the AE, and you then have a wired connection to your NDX. Both devices will still be using WiFi to connect to the internet, but local streaming will still be Ethernet wired, which is the one that really matters. If you have other streamers in the house, they will still need to access the Core over WiFi, either as standalone players, or for multiroom, which would then still be an option if you want it. 

Very good point! And if space and money are issues, you could also replace the Core with a Pi running MinimServer. As a bonus, this would also give you intelligent browsing, index customizability and fuss-free software. 

For the sake of clarity, am I right in understanding that minimserver is a UPnP server and not a renderer, so can only substitute for Core's ethernet output (i.e. network, though presumably can be a direct one), so still needing the OP to retain the NDX for rendering if a separate DAC is used?

Right, MinimServer is a UPnP server. It can run on different platforms and, in contrast to the UPnP server running on the Core, does support user-specific indexing and is highly customizable, see http://minimserver.com/. Running MinimServer and upmpdcli (see https://www.lesbonscomptes.com/upmpdcli/) on the same device (e.g., a Raspberry Pi) yields an integrated server+renderer. One then only needs a USB DAC or, alternatively, a USB->SPDIF bridge (and isolator) and a SPDIF DAC. With a Pi, one can avoid the bridge by extending the Pi with a Hifiberry Digi+ Pro (not tested). This should provide a clean SPDIF output and galvanic isolation. The advantage of using upmpdcli over the Core's player is that it supports internet radio, Tidal and Qobuz. With MinimServer (or any other decent UPnP server) and upmpdcli, one also does not need a player-specific control point: any UPnP control point will work. In a nutshell, with MinimServer and upmpdcli running on the same device one has all the advantages of a LAN streaming solution but no data transfer over the LAN at replay time.

Following ChrisSU's suggestion, the OP could connect a device running a UPnP server (NAS, Core, Pi, Mac, whatever) to the same Airport Extreme to which his NDX is connected. This would preserve his current streaming solution while avoiding transferring highres files over the wireless at replay time when the replay point is the NDX. This is a very simple and straightforward solution, it seems to me. It is anyway a very useful test to make sure that the dropouts observed can indeed be avoided by a wired connection. 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

nbpf posted:

No quarter posted:

Many suggestions for a NAS, but how many have done a direct comparison of a NAS to an NDX (which he owns) compared to Core to an NDX strictly for sound quality,not price or convenience. I have also been looking ...

I have not seen so far any systematic comparison between the Core as a UPnP server and NAS devices running well established UPnP servers like Asset or MinimServer. It is possible that Core users are still dealing with software issues (lack of support for metadata editing, data management issues) and that we will have to wait some more time until serious reviews of the Core start appearing. I would expect the NDX to be fairly source agnostic and the differences between a Core and a NAS to be negligible. But none knows. I anyway would not use a Core in my system even it would turn out to sound slightly better than a NAS or a Raspberry Pi running MinimServer.

I haven't compared the Core yet from a SQ and then measurement point of view, but I have compared ReadyDLNA, Asset and MinimServer running on various platforms and have heard subtle differences in Sound Performance and measured differences between the server/platform combinations. I used the NDX as my SQ measure, and Wireshark as my technical data measure. I have posted results and graphs on the beta forum as my tests referred to  beta firmware builds

what is interesting that servers like MinimServer don't perform the same across different platforms. As for the differences, we are not talking bit perfect sample data etc... that is all identical. But what I am talking about and measuring are differences  in data flow dynamics and frame timings during transfer. This I suspect is causing processing different  'noise' profiles in the network stack affecting performance.. not dissimilar to the sound differences you sometimes  hear between WAV and FLAC.

Now I am also acutely aware these sound differences are a product of the current Naim streamer architecture. I understand potentially these results and differences will change with the new architecture developed by Naim for the new Uniti range. I understand these consume media across the network in a different way from the current Classic series streamers and streamerNACs.

If anyone is interested the best sounding and most consistently timed frame transfer I found from my various combinations was ReadDLNA running on a Netgear ReadyNAS 102 ... unfortunately it's the least capable media server. Luckily the SQ differences are subtle.

Thanks a lot Simon! I have two questions: 1) Have you by chance made measurements in a setup in which the UPnP server and the renderer are running on the same device and files are stored locally? 2) Are your results accessible to non beta-testers? Best, nbpf

Hi nbpf,

Well you finally came around to understanding why I asked about internet streaming - a question you previously dismissed out of hand.

Yes... it determines what software and hardware you need on your local NAS, and how many local NASs you need (be that Core, traditional NAS, NUC, Mac Mini, Raspbery Pi or anything else; if you push the data to it across the LAN they're all functioning as a NAS).

Huge posted:

Hi nbpf,

Well you finally came around to understanding why I asked about internet streaming - a question you previously dismissed out of hand.

Yes... it determines what software and hardware you need on your local NAS, and how many local NASs you need (be that Core, traditional NAS, NUC, Mac Mini, Raspbery Pi or anything else; if you push the data to it across the LAN they're all functioning as a NAS).

Sorry Huge, I'm probably missing something obvious but I do not understand what you are saying: what am I coming around understanding? What have I dismissed? What does "it" in "it determines what software ..." refer to? Does your post relate to my questions to Simon? I am confused.