Proac D18 + NACA5 = This week's catastrophe. Am I doing something wrong.....

SongStream posted:

  I added 4m runs of NACA5 this weekend to replace my 20 year old QED biwire, 

 For the moment I've used the bars supplied by Proac to bridge the terminals.  I can't think what could be a miss with that, at least not that will make a huge difference to the overall performance, but open to ideas.

 

Two things -

Let the A5 run in a bit.

The shorting bars do make quite a difference so it's worth getting rid of those and getting an F type arrangement sorted at the speaker end. 

Saying that, if you've never really got on with the Proacs then no messing with cables will sort that out...

I did wonder if the jumpers could make a significant difference.  I've tried switching between the two sets of terminals, and that doesn't seem to make any difference.  Haven't tried one cable on lower set, and the other on the top, but very much suspect that won't help either.  I did wonder if there would any merit in making up some jumpers from the old QED cable.  Not sure if that would be the done thing, but could try it anyway I suppose.

No disrespect to the dealer who made up cables but have you double checked the polarity of the cables i.e. red plug goes to red plug ?

I use Proac Tablette 10s and at the speaker end removed the supplied terminal bars, removed plugs from the end of my NACA5, stripped back 2 inches of cable and bare wired to the terminals threading from the top.

PS My NACA5 is around 20 years old so plenty of run in mileage

Not exactly much help here but I owned the Proac Tablette 50 Signatures many years ago and did find them to sound lean and bright. Not only that, it not only didn't have the guts but the bass was severely lacking being a mini-monitor. It's all top with no mids and tail. Having said that, I do miss the airy and holographic sound of the Proac monitors and for this reason the Tablette 10 Signature is currently high in my shortlist.

Similarly I would give the NACA5 a bit of run-in time. Aftermarket jumpers do not bring much difference to my Harbeth speakers but you can always try using a short run of copper cables and see for yourself. Some speakers may respond more positively with aftermarket jumpers. Personally I wouldn't try the F-type arrangement as I like to keep it all clean-looking. Hifiman's method of running bare wires through the speaker terminals is a good option. Since your NACA5 has been terminated with Chord plugs at the speaker end I would leave the cable as is.

If you have access to audition Dynaudio speakers, try the Excite X 34.

Compared them directly to Proac D18's. They may be what you're after. 

If the cables are new they will take quite a while to run in, but will start to improve after a few days. I suggest you ask your dealer to solder an F connection using the pins from Naim plugs. That way you can get it very neat without anything sticking out from the back of the speaker. The cost of doing this is very small, less than jumpers and far less than changing speakers. Lots of people on here use Proacs with Naim and seem very happy. Experiment also with speaker position. Point them straight ahead then toe in just enough to get a stable image. That should reduce treble brightness. You can also try moving them a bit further apart, but not so far that you get a hole in the middle. 

Sometimes no amount of tweaking will achieve what you want sonically in a system. From the sound of your initial post there is an incompatibility with your system, room, that in all reality can't be fixed without a fundamental change.

As a former Proac owner, they can be magical speakers, but they also can be a little bright in the wrong room, combination of electronics.

From your description, I would audition new speakers that have a more refined sound overall.

Badlands made a good point. Live with the setup and fiddle with speaker placement for a while. In time you would know if the Proacs would be staying, or leaving.

Can't you move the loudspeakers a bit closer to the wall and see what it does?

Why not reconnect all the stuff and validate - as mentioned above - direction and polarity?

With regard to positioning HH gives sound advice, but it's an exercise I've already been through quite extensively.  I actually found that whether the speakers face straight out, or with various degrees of toe-in, makes little difference to the overall brightness, and distance from the wall seems mainly a matter of managing bass boom, rather than really altering the overall weight to the sound.  In the end, I decided they sounded best with quite a lot of toe-in, as this seemed to make the highs more focused and less edgy, but still a bit over emphasized.  That was all with the original old cable obviously.  

And as Badlands and Ryder say, sometimes you just can't get the damn things to your way of thinking, which I do fear this latest experiment confirms.  That said, I'll not rush into anything, let it all bed in for a while, and see if they adjust, or I do.  

I should also acknowledge, I can hear what NACA5 brings to the party and what it is trying to achieve.  The musical cohesiveness is really there, I'm picking out all kinds of interplay in tracks I've known for years, but have never really heard properly before.  It is impressive what they do, but I don't find the system immersive and believable, its just too damn bright and weedy in the middle with these cables and speakers.  The bass performance is actually pretty spot on my view, really agile, and with good depth and texture, just the mid to top balance that's all wrong.  

I'm tempted to wire my old Mission 752s back up and see how they do.  The Dynaudio X34s mentioned will go on the list to try I think, having just done a little reading.  Thanks for that idea. 

SongStream posted:

I'm tempted to wire my old Mission 752s back up and see how they do.  The Dynaudio X34s mentioned will go on the list to try I think, having just done a little reading.  Thanks for that idea. 

Or maybe give the Neat Motive SX range a go.

If you liked the mission 752 speakers of old with Naim gear (I loved them) then the new Neat Motive range are sure to be firecrackers here.

I confess that I haven't read all the posts thoroughly, and this is going to be a silly question, but have you thrice checked that the speakers are in phase?

Max

What you are describing is the result of poor soldering.  

Keep listening and don't start messing about with stuff. The new cables will appear to be kicking in a few times but will wander off again. You will have nothing. no bass,no mids, nothing. It will take beyond 100 hours to get it all back but it will happen. Hang in there!

Stephen Tate posted:

SongStream posted:

I'm tempted to wire my old Mission 752s back up and see how they do.  The Dynaudio X34s mentioned will go on the list to try I think, having just done a little reading.  Thanks for that idea. 

Or maybe give the Neat Motive SX range a go.

If you liked the mission 752 speakers of old with Naim gear (I loved them) then the new Neat Motive range are sure to be firecrackers here.

Yes, I loved the 752s very much, and used them with current electronics to good effect for a year or so.  They didn't have the control and precision of the Proacs, and could get a little crashy sometimes with more complex rock music.  They didn't unravel orchestras anything like as well, and the bass response was a bit slow and vague, that was a trait of the Freedom version which I owned, the original versions were faster I think.  However, they rendered voices brilliantly, and could sound sublime with some recordings, and highly impressive, or more importantly immersive, with most.  Organic is always the word that springs to mind.  Whatever faults they had were easily forgivable given how well they performed as whole.  One of the best value purchases of any kind I have ever made.  I've rambled on about them on this forum several times, so better shut up now,.

I like what I am reading about the Neats.  Good to see a couple of speaker reviews where the real stand out feature seems to be the mid-range performance.  I'll give them a listen assuming there is no miracle cure for the current situation.  If they turn out to be a like more controlled and revealing 752 they'll be moving in. ;-)

Chris Bell posted:

What you are describing is the result of poor soldering.  

That's a very matter of fact statement.  I'm not arguing, but poor in what way?  The type of solder, or the method?  How would I know for sure if it has not been done correctly?

cyclo posted:

Keep listening and don't start messing about with stuff. The new cables will appear to be kicking in a few times but will wander off again. You will have nothing. no bass,no mids, nothing. It will take beyond 100 hours to get it all back but it will happen. Hang in there!

Well, I hope you are right.  That will become apparent in due course.  This is going to need to change a lot more than the SN2 did after its run-in though.  We shall see, they are up to 96 hours at this point.  

As others have said Nac A5 takes ages to run in, i have bought 2 runs of it in the past using Epos speakers and it made them sound awful for at least a week.

Karl

Karl posted:

As others have said Nac A5 takes ages to run in, i have bought 2 runs of it in the past using Epos speakers and it made them sound awful for at least a week.

Karl

I remain open-minded about the run-in thing, that at least will be proved one way or t'other.  In the name of science I have left everything as is, not messed around with positioning, or anything else, and if they do open up in the middle, it should be obviously down to run-in.  It was a topic I didn't want to go into as it has been discussed (largely argued about) to death.  I don't know why cables should need time to run in, and I don't know why they shouldn't either.  One of the reasons for not dwelling on it, is that I already had this niggle about the Proacs prior to the cable change, albeit to a lesser extent, and am keen to explore ideas for cures and alternative speakers should the NACA5 not work out with them either.

I am just keen this thread doesn't turn into another argument about whether wire needs to run-in or not.  More fun to explore other ideas for speakers, and potential causes of the issue.  

Hi,

I´ve got a pair of Proac D18 untill this weekend on my system ( NAIM, KRELL, etç ) and no issues like you describe, it might be your cables that realy need to "Burn", nevertheless I´ve used for some time some TALK 3.1 on my system and when I got my NACA5 there was an increase in the HF and some brightness, that after some time I´ve got used, and gain more clarity on voices, chord instruments, etç, but had nothing to do with the speakers, cause I´ve tested with Proac, B&W, Sonus Faber and Neat, and got the same result, in my case it was not a speaker issue, but the cable.

So let´s see if you can live with the new reality of having more clear/bright HF in your system. 

BR

RM

Don't give up on the D18, it is a really good speaker even if with a presentation a bit forward. Leave then the NACA all the time it needs to burn in. This being said, it is well known that this well balanced cable is fast hence somewhat tight and stiff, and not just to lay around.

If presentation remains bright edgy in 3 or 4 months, look for an alternative with The Chord Company or.. ProAc.

Chag -

SongStream posted:

Chris Bell posted:

What you are describing is the result of poor soldering.  

That's a very matter of fact statement.  I'm not arguing, but poor in what way?  The type of solder, or the method?  How would I know for sure if it has not been done correctly?

That was my thought as well. Have you looked at the FAQ 

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...-andamp-f-connection

Particularly the photo examples of good and bad soldering.

If the speakers sounded OK with the cheap QED cables, I don't think you can blame them for sounding bad with NACA5. 

If the wire and plug are not properly brought to a high temp the solder will not take and the joint will be brittle resulting in a poor connection.  Soldering is an art, and it the wrong hands disaster can occur.  I know this first hand.  

My two cents - as suggested I'd start by checking the polarity. There is a ridge on one side of NACA5. Typically this is used as the positive/red connection. See that it's consistent between the amp end and speaker end of the cable on both sets.

When I had D20Rs home I first tried the supplied jumpers and found the sound a bit harsh. Much better when I removed the Proac jumpers and used the F-connectors on my NACA5. I'm using Naim plugs on both ends of my cables. I really enjoyed the Proacs with NACA5.

Chris Bell posted:

Soldering is an art

Especially true with stained glass