Core and Naim App Updates ??

Agree with SC's concerns in this post.  I bought a Core and have made progress loading with CDs from the library (as part of a 'tidy-up' to create a core library of 'best-loved' material).  However, in the absence of the meta-data editing release (expected end-March?), I've put all on hold for the moment.   Frustratingly, I seem to have more than a fair share of Sony material in this collection, so I don't even have cover art by way of consolation in many cases.....

All with SC and Mikey. It's been all too silent on the Core metadata front lately.

Chag -

on just sound quality, i found that unitserve tp ps and core were quietly the same. But since one week i have an uptone audio js2 with my serve and second output to the switch, and i am astonished by the big improvement. My nds/ serve has now dynamics and prat of cdx2/xps2 i hade before, but with a lot more details, bigger soundstage, fluency and soft and very natural timbers....  

it is a fantastic upgrade!

SC posted:

Just wondering if there is any further word on when (as well as the what detail) the proposed next main update for these will arrive, carrying the meta-data editing facilities and, ideally, 'more' (praying for increased tag fields and sorting options etc..!).............Hoping Phil and/or the key folk at HQ might be able to give a bit more info by now....? I've read and followed other related threads, but just thought I'd give a new shout out.....

I know we're in Naim speak and the initial 'mid March' date may well translate as December, but.....

With thanks, and fingers and toes crossed...

[...]

In the specific case, no news is perhaps good news. I think that at Naim they must have realized that throwing at the market a server that, by design, offers no better functionalities than the old US and that is impaired by questionable design choices and unintended software deficiencies is not the best way of promoting a device that was supposed to reinvent one's music collection. From this perspective, it is possible that they are working hard preparing a major Core software revision.

I am personally more concerned by what has been announced to be on the roadmap -- support for metadata editing integrated in the control app for mobile devices -- rather than by the lack of news.

Efficient metadata editing crucially relies on a few basic low-level functionalities: copy&paste, autocompletion, selection of entries from popup lists, among others. It is well known that these functionalities tend to be rather poorly supported on mobile devices, especially on those with small screens. Metadata editing on mobile devices could perhaps be a nice bonus in a well sorted toolbox. But, for sure, it should not be the only way of editing the metadata of Core rips.

Even more questionable is the fact that Naim insists on treating imported music files as second class Core citizens: metadata editing will support modifying the metadata of Core rips only, not of imported files. Thus, far from offering a seamless, fuss-free solution to the problem of managing a music collection, the Core will require users to apply two different tools for editing the metadata of imported files and of Core rips. In 2010, this was perhaps for many users an awkward but acceptable compromise. Today, it is an unacceptable solution: Naim can and should do better.

I have explained my reservations on the Core's current design in many posts in this forum and I believe that the most awkward limitations of the current design could easily be lifted if Naim decided to do so. Thus, for instance, it would be possible to add support for internet radio and internet streaming services on the Core using well established, available solutions for the underlying platform. Thus, I hope that the lack of news means that Naim is working at a major revision of the Core's software design. This would be very good news indeed. 

Hopefully there will be some naim guys at the signals event tomorrow, I will ask for an update as I too have a core and think it could be better!

Good to feel less alone in concerns around the metadata editing issue.  NBPF's longer post is very interesting, and I certainly support his concern that tablet devices aren't ideal for any significant level of editing - either in volume (how many CDs) or extent (how much needs to be changed).  I had raised the question of editing on a PC/Mac with Naim earlier in the year, but they seemed definite that the Naim App was 'it'.

In loading what I have done so far, I think I've got about 30% of discs with 'clean' metadata (may be improvable, but ok to live with) and 70% that need tweaking in terms of anything from cover art to poor titling or track data.  So lots to do.

There are third party metadata editors out there.  I did try Metadatics (on Mac) for one or two items, before I got steered away by Naim on the basis of possible database corruption....

If Gazza can elicit something of a steer at Signals about where and when this is all heading that might be a helpful route out of limbo.    Frustrating, because I like the Core and the Naim ecosystem a lot in terms of convenience and sound quality, as well as its potential to be a bit less geeky for the rest of the family to use.

Excellent points NBPF. I couldn't agree more.

The lack of a separate software interface to the server equivalent to DTC for US/HDX/NS or even via desktop browser is a worry regarding decent meta-data input and editing, amongst other things.....To be honest, I had sort of put that to the side of my thoughts and 'reduced' my wishes to just some additional tag fields etc over the old models...! App will be fine and convenient for 'light' inputs and adjustment etc, but I really can't see it being the ideal solution for in-depth meta-data editing sessions – or perhaps that's the answer right there, that it's just not going to be happening.

As I referred about 'some decisions being already set by HQ', I too had picked up on some of the comments from Phil etc on what was already decided. I really don't understand the logic behind only editing the Core ripped files and not all the music stores/downloads from within the Core – surely the server should be the umbrella and gateway for everything, all unified and seamlessly presented as a whole, regardless of the multiple storage locations and type of file (Rip, download, etc) .....If the situation stays the same as the 10yr old+ US/HDX/NS models and their software then we stay with Naim rips tagged in 4 or 5 fields only and user added rips/downloads (the future arguably being Hi-res files) requiring additional software e.g. dbPoweramp, Metadatics, (even Roon) etc and two different work methods....The irony also being that the 10's of tag fields possible this way can never be presented by the Core or utilised by the App......... sigh.

It's as if the new Core is being deliberately restrained. At least, I hope it's that and that it can eventually grow wings and fly. Naim's SQ is unquestionable, the brand highly respected and a very loyal and somewhat captive customer base – doesn't it make sense to make the Core an amazing and fully fledged audio server: True Naim audio quality with a feature rich UI that kicks the likes of Roon and Minim etc etc in to touch and make it an essential and desirable part of the Naim ecosystem feeding everything from NDS downwards......? And not just for current Naim customers and fans – this really could be a Halo product.

Naturally we really don't know what the full intent and planned roadmap is for the Core from Naim and I too really hope it quickly matures into the complete audio server 'hub' it really should be, but.....

The promoted strap-line 'Reference Hard Disc Server' does seem to jar with the current reality.......

It's always possible to load Asset onto a NAS. It does everything that's been mentioned above, and for under £500 too. Or get a Core: less for more. 

Only a matter of time before you popped up with that HH...!

Of course, you're largely right. From a brief play, I thought Minim was even more customisable....and then Roon takes it further again.....

But – isn't this Naim's very own opportunity to create the audio server..? And wasn't that inherently the point – To build upon the elderly tech of the 1st generation servers US/HDX/NS that were 'stuck' with their adapted non-propiretry software (and there really was some junk in there from what I've been told...!) and incorporate all of the modern day streaming 'standards' and UI that have now become established and so intuitive for most...? To move the benchmark forward, both in SQ and user experience..? I presumed all the R&D and 'ground up' philosophy of the new Uniti range was to allow for this....not, effectively, to go backwards..!? Emperor's New Clothes.....Literally! Perhaps there's a Statement 'Reference' server in the pipelines – featuring user drag-n-drop artwork editing..! 

Apple may remove useful ports and give various headaches when they evolve each new Mac, but at least they generally get faster and more capable with every advancing generation.....

You are absolutely right – £500 would easily give you a lot more functionality, sans ripping. But, speaking personally, I'd happily purchase a Naim badged equivalent, put my faith in the inevitable SQ standard and....pay 'Naim Tax' for the privilege to boot........It may sound a bit mad, but it really is my ideal and preferred set up – I feel my investment in all the other kit justifies this. However, it's getting hard to argue against the alternative solution(s) like you suggest. I know you had a US, did a lot of rips, saw an alternative light and sold up for the NAS and UpNP software approach......and that's the underlying point here isn't it – is the Core really providing a truly enticing and rewarding solution worth the investment it incurs....? Having purchased a late serial US SSD and also put down a deposit on the Core, I have to admit I, for one, am beginning to honestly wonder....

Sure, we can all sort ourselves out with the many alternative UpnP and SPDIF serve solutions out there, for far less expense, and Naim don't have to do anything on this front.....but, with the current state of the Core, I'm really really confused why they even bothered – it must have cost them money to put the US in new casework and remove some of the software functions...!! I'm a creative with not a particular savvy business head, but even that doesn't make sense to me...!

Anyway, all being said....my faith is still intact this update is coming.....................and it's going to rock......really!

Hungryhalibut posted:

It's always possible to load Asset onto a NAS. It does everything that's been mentioned above, and for under £500 too. Or get a Core: less for more. 

Sure, but the Core is meant to be a little bit more than a NAS running a UPnP server. It is advertised as an integrated  ripping station, music server and music player. It comes with a CD reader, Ethernet ports and with hopefully very good SPDIF outputs.

Thus, it should be judged on the basis of its capability to deliver as a ripping station and as a music server and player.

I know little about ripping stations but a music server and player should support storing, importing and exporting music files in different formats, provide flexible access to the internal data, support the most basic data transfer protocols, allow running platform compatible UPnP servers, players and renderers, provide internet radio and internet streaming services, etc. Have a look, for instance, at the services provided by the Bryston BDP-Pi or by the Sonore Sonicorbiter.

I am not saying that the Core should have been stuffed with functionalities. But that it should be possible to install the functionalities that one needs and uninstall those one does not care about. There is plenty of solutions available that allow a safe and flexible customization. 

Unfortunately, the current software system of the Core seems more like a (not very successful) attempt at porting the 10 years old software design of the US to a modern computing platform rather than an attempt at integrating available modern solutions. 

I do not need to buy a Core, of course. But this waste of opportunities is saddening. And, to be frank, I find that advertising a device that gets shipped with a 10 years old software design and partly broken functionalities as "revolutionary" is a bit insulting.

nbpf posted:

SC posted:

Just wondering if there is any further word on when (as well as the what detail) the proposed next main update for these will arrive, carrying the meta-data editing facilities and, ideally, 'more' (praying for increased tag fields and sorting options etc..!).............Hoping Phil and/or the key folk at HQ might be able to give a bit more info by now....? I've read and followed other related threads, but just thought I'd give a new shout out.....

I know we're in Naim speak and the initial 'mid March' date may well translate as December, but.....

With thanks, and fingers and toes crossed...

[...]

In the specific case, no news is perhaps good news. I think that at Naim they must have realized that throwing at the market a server that, by design, offers no better functionalities than the old US and that is impaired by questionable design choices and unintended software deficiencies is not the best way of promoting a device that was supposed to reinvent one's music collection. From this perspective, it is possible that they are working hard preparing a major Core software revision.

I am personally more concerned by what has been announced to be on the roadmap -- support for metadata editing integrated in the control app for mobile devices -- rather than by the lack of news.

Efficient metadata editing crucially relies on a few basic low-level functionalities: copy&paste, autocompletion, selection of entries from popup lists, among others. It is well known that these functionalities tend to be rather poorly supported on mobile devices, especially on those with small screens. Metadata editing on mobile devices could perhaps be a nice bonus in a well sorted toolbox. But, for sure, it should not be the only way of editing the metadata of Core rips.

Even more questionable is the fact that Naim insists on treating imported music files as second class Core citizens: metadata editing will support modifying the metadata of Core rips only, not of imported files. Thus, far from offering a seamless, fuss-free solution to the problem of managing a music collection, the Core will require users to apply two different tools for editing the metadata of imported files and of Core rips. In 2010, this was perhaps for many users an awkward but acceptable compromise. Today, it is an unacceptable solution: Naim can and should do better.

I have explained my reservations on the Core's current design in many posts in this forum and I believe that the most awkward limitations of the current design could easily be lifted if Naim decided to do so. Thus, for instance, it would be possible to add support for internet radio and internet streaming services on the Core using well established, available solutions for the underlying platform. Thus, I hope that the lack of news means that Naim is working at a major revision of the Core's software design. This would be very good news indeed. 

NBPF

Yours is by far the most concise post on this forum in regard to Core. and it follows my thoughts 100%.

Well done.

Gazza posted:

Hopefully there will be some naim guys at the signals event tomorrow, I will ask for an update as I too have a core and think it could be better!

Better.............................it doesn't even work

Try listening to the music, it does that very well........

Try finding some music to listen to from your Unitiserve produced NAS library using the Core app........................it doesn't even work

mikeyjfs posted:

…There are third party metadata editors out there.  I did try Metadatics (on Mac) for one or two items, before I got steered away by Naim on the basis of possible database corruption....

 

A worrying statement - I use Metadatics on a UnitiServe - any more details?

nbpf posted:

SC posted:

Just wondering if there is any further word on when (as well as the what detail) the proposed next main update for these will arrive, carrying the meta-data editing facilities and, ideally, 'more' (praying for increased tag fields and sorting options etc..!).............Hoping Phil and/or the key folk at HQ might be able to give a bit more info by now....? I've read and followed other related threads, but just thought I'd give a new shout out.....

I know we're in Naim speak and the initial 'mid March' date may well translate as December, but.....

With thanks, and fingers and toes crossed...

[...]

In the specific case, no news is perhaps good news. I think that at Naim they must have realized that throwing at the market a server that, by design, offers no better functionalities than the old US and that is impaired by questionable design choices and unintended software deficiencies is not the best way of promoting a device that was supposed to reinvent one's music collection. From this perspective, it is possible that they are working hard preparing a major Core software revision.

I am personally more concerned by what has been announced to be on the roadmap -- support for metadata editing integrated in the control app for mobile devices -- rather than by the lack of news.

Efficient metadata editing crucially relies on a few basic low-level functionalities: copy&paste, autocompletion, selection of entries from popup lists, among others. It is well known that these functionalities tend to be rather poorly supported on mobile devices, especially on those with small screens. Metadata editing on mobile devices could perhaps be a nice bonus in a well sorted toolbox. But, for sure, it should not be the only way of editing the metadata of Core rips.

Even more questionable is the fact that Naim insists on treating imported music files as second class Core citizens: metadata editing will support modifying the metadata of Core rips only, not of imported files. Thus, far from offering a seamless, fuss-free solution to the problem of managing a music collection, the Core will require users to apply two different tools for editing the metadata of imported files and of Core rips. In 2010, this was perhaps for many users an awkward but acceptable compromise. Today, it is an unacceptable solution: Naim can and should do better.

I have explained my reservations on the Core's current design in many posts in this forum and I believe that the most awkward limitations of the current design could easily be lifted if Naim decided to do so. Thus, for instance, it would be possible to add support for internet radio and internet streaming services on the Core using well established, available solutions for the underlying platform. Thus, I hope that the lack of news means that Naim is working at a major revision of the Core's software design. This would be very good news indeed. 

Don't disagree with your points other than the idea that Naim are preparing a major software revision. There doesn't seem to be much ambition beyond metadata editing. I would imagine they are focused  on The new uniti range that is half a year late and when asked if it will be on time no one seems clear. I think the problem is the bizarre decision to launch the range when it was clear it wasn't remotely ready and still isn't.

In answer to Richard M, I can't give more detail on the Metadatics database corruption risk, since I stepped back from proceeding at the time.  (This was done in late Feb, when we expected the Naim App meta-editing update only a month or so later).  Beginning to feel differently now, with so many loaded CDs with inadequate / wrong data.

Richard Morris posted:

mikeyjfs posted:

…There are third party metadata editors out there.  I did try Metadatics (on Mac) for one or two items, before I got steered away by Naim on the basis of possible database corruption....

 

A worrying statement - I use Metadatics on a UnitiServe - any more details?

For CD rips, Naim's acvice is that you should only use N-Serve for metadata editing, and never make any changes to music files and folders by accessing them on a computer. For downloads, this does not apply, Metadatics is fine, and they are stored in a separate folder.

ssmith posted:

Don't disagree with your points other than the idea that Naim are preparing a major software revision. There doesn't seem to be much ambition beyond metadata editing. I would imagine they are focused  on The new uniti range that is half a year late and when asked if it will be on time no one seems clear. I think the problem is the bizarre decision to launch the range when it was clear it wasn't remotely ready and still isn't.

I'm starting to feel fear the same.....though I would point out that the Core is supposedly a key (er, core) part of the new Uniti range – they should be concentrating on it just as much as getting the other boxes finally to market.....

I guess we'll never publicly know just what has gone on, but it does all seem a bit strange....

Still, can't really argue it's out of the ordinary for Naim – I'm still waiting for the advertised and promised Upscaling upgrade card for my DVD5...! 

It seems clear the ability to edit basic meta-data will come, some day – but as speculated, if it's all through the App (only) and also restricted to the Core's rips then it's arguably going to be minimal in capacity......It's as if the Core left the pits without the left rear even fitted, let alone releasing it with the wheel nut not properly tightened......!

I know Jon Honeyball mentioned he may be involved with a upcoming review of the Core, but are there any critic reviews out there at present...? Interesting if not.

ChrisSU posted:

Richard Morris posted:

mikeyjfs posted:

…There are third party metadata editors out there.  I did try Metadatics (on Mac) for one or two items, before I got steered away by Naim on the basis of possible database corruption....

 

A worrying statement - I use Metadatics on a UnitiServe - any more details?

For CD rips, Naim's acvice is that you should only use N-Serve for metadata editing, and never make any changes to music files and folders by accessing them on a computer. For downloads, this does not apply, Metadatics is fine, and they are stored in a separate folder.

Richard – as ChrisSU correctly states, it's the internal store of US generated rips that it is advised not to alter the file's metadata. Your own 'external' rips and downloads are fine to amend. 

As you may be aware, the US/HDX/NS rips use a external text file for the associated meta data and the info is not 'embedded' in the WAV file....It was Naim's choice to do things this way for SQ reasons, apparently. Providing you can gain access to the Naim rips, there is actually nothing stopping you embedding metadata in the files (inc WAV) with 3rd party software – however I think the advice not to stems from the fear that it could potentially corrupt the internal database, i.e that, with the external text info file still in place, it sees two sets of metadata and starts to get itself in a pickle......

Interestingly, the US apparently checks for the presence of embedded metadata first ......Ahead of getting my US, I had thoughts/plans to rip, move the files to an external store and then alter and add embedded metadata to my heart's content with dbPowerAmp etc. After some lengthy discussion on the general subject, I was expressly told by the Australasia distributor that the US prioritises metadata as such: Embedded first, CD Text File second and File Path third .....If it doesn't find the first, it will use the second etc etc..... 

So, embedding the metadata into the Naim ripped files is perfectly possible and useable, providing you are careful with the method and music stores. However, I was also told that embedding into the WAV files definitely showed a sonic difference when compared to a file without.........I've never properly tested myself, but I guess you have to wonder just why Naim went for the 'inconvenient' method re external metadata files.......

ssmith posted:

nbpf posted:

SC posted:

Just wondering if there is any further word on when ...

...

 Thus, I hope that the lack of news means that Naim is working at a major revision of the Core's software design. This would be very good news indeed. 

Don't disagree with your points other than the idea that Naim are preparing a major software revision. There doesn't seem to be much ambition beyond metadata editing. I would imagine they are focused  on The new uniti range that is half a year late and when asked if it will be on time no one seems clear. I think the problem is the bizarre decision to launch the range when it was clear it wasn't remotely ready and still isn't.

You might well be right, of course. I feel mildly upset when a company I trust throws at the market half ready products. At the same time, I recognize that, with the new uniti range, Naim has entered a relatively new territory and that errors can always be made. Thus, I very much appreciate and respect Naim's decision to put on the handbrake and postpone the release of the new range. What I find more disturbing is Naim's policy. What is the reason for not supporting Roon, internet radio, Tidal, Qobuz etc. on a new player? What does Naim think that potential Core buyers expect from a modern server and replay system? Many NDS and nDAC owners would be more than happy to connect their devices to a Naim source if this would give them a reliable, high quality, fuss-free entry point to those services: just give them access and let them try whatever services they want to try. I have no idea of the rationals behind Naim's choices. But it seems to me that, far from providing their customers with a high quality, seamless access to music replay systems and services, Naim is trying to lock them into awkward, impaired solutions: want Roon? Go elsewhere! Want MPD? Go elsewhere! Want MinimServer? Go elsewhere! Want Tidal? Go elsewhere! And so on. Many posts in this forum suggest that the most obvious consequence of such a policy is to push NDS and nDAC owners towards non-Naim solutions. The good news is that there is plenty of them and that some work very well.

The Atom &Co. will have Roon, and access to Qobuz via google cast, as well as Tidal and internet radio. But the Core is a server, not a streamer, so Naim would say there is no need to include streaming services in a server. For some unknown reason people seem to be buying Cores, but anyone who doesn't feel it meets their needs doesn't have to. If someone wants to lug sofas around they can't complain once they've bought an Up! rather than a Passat. 

ChrisSU posted:

Richard Morris posted:

mikeyjfs posted:

…There are third party metadata editors out there.  I did try Metadatics (on Mac) for one or two items, before I got steered away by Naim on the basis of possible database corruption....

 

A worrying statement - I use Metadatics on a UnitiServe - any more details?

For CD rips, Naim's acvice is that you should only use N-Serve for metadata editing, and never make any changes to music files and folders by accessing them on a computer. For downloads, this does not apply, Metadatics is fine, and they are stored in a separate folder.

Whew! Thanks.

Richard Morris posted:

ChrisSU posted:

Richard Morris posted:

mikeyjfs posted:

…There are third party metadata editors out there.  I did try Metadatics (on Mac) for one or two items, before I got steered away by Naim on the basis of possible database corruption....

 

A worrying statement - I use Metadatics on a UnitiServe - any more details?

For CD rips, Naim's acvice is that you should only use N-Serve for metadata editing, and never make any changes to music files and folders by accessing them on a computer. For downloads, this does not apply, Metadatics is fine, and they are stored in a separate folder.

Whew! Thanks.

Metadatix sounds like a figure from the comic 'Asterix and Obelix and the Audiophilles'.

Hungryhalibut posted:

The Atom &Co. will have Roon, and access to Qobuz via google cast, as well as Tidal and internet radio. But the Core is a server, not a streamer, so Naim would say ...

Well, as a matter of fact this is not true. The Core is a UPnP server and a player beside being also a ripping station, of course. Hence it has SPDIF outputs and it can directly feed a Naim DAC, a NDS or, in fact, any DAC with SPDIF input.