Core and Naim App Updates ??

Hungryhalibut posted:

The Atom &Co. will have Roon, and access to Qobuz via google cast, as well as Tidal and internet radio. But the Core is a server, not a streamer, so Naim would say there is no need to include streaming services in a server. For some unknown reason people seem to be buying Cores, but anyone who doesn't feel it meets their needs doesn't have to. If someone wants to lug sofas around they can't complain once they've bought an Up! rather than a Passat. 

I agree – the Core is a Server. Only, it's not even fully doing that at present. In fact, if you're one of the unlucky users with numerous 'blank' albums and songs on your Core then it's even hampering...! That's the main point here.....

I personally don't care about a lot of the 'add ons' and see many of those features are more the domain of the 'streamer' – all I desire is a truly capable/functional reference server and 'hub' for all my music, with ability to edit–sort–categorise my collection, to be played around the place with Naim SQ from start to finish – I thought that's what was written on the tin ?

It's not about mis-choice or mis-understanding. I know well I can use the NAS and UpNP software etc etc – even iTunes will give me more – and get all the editing, control and functionality I desire over my music....And that I don't have to buy from Naim.........It's that there's clearly a queue of keen potential customers (along with the early buyers, many currently stuck in the mud or worse with existing US/HDX collections – if it was a U.S product you wouldn't be surprised to hear 'class actions' being bounded about....) who would really like to take Naim up on their offer to provide the same whist having top notch Naim SQ and integration with the rest of their kit – and pay handsomely for the privilege.....What's the point of the Core in the product line-up if it can't fully do that..?

The genuine intent of this thread was to try and get a little more info and latest detail on the promised updates – I know well Naim rarely will give out much detail publicly (I lived through the AV days...) but as we're nearing 2 months after the initial date for update (and more months since the Core actually shipped, after delay mind you) I thought a few words–of some kind–from somebody–somewhere at HQ would provide some much needed encouragement to potential and current buyers......As someone said above, it's a bit of a worry we have near silence.....

ssmith posted:

Don't disagree with your points other than the idea that Naim are preparing a major software revision. There doesn't seem to be much ambition beyond metadata editing. I would imagine they are focused  on The new uniti range that is half a year late and when asked if it will be on time no one seems clear. I think the problem is the bizarre decision to launch the range when it was clear it wasn't remotely ready and still isn't.

Possibly unfortunately. But where are the weekly progress updates suggested in their first thread? It would help us all to have a biweekly update on plans and status.  

Uniti Progress Update

As to keep you informed of current news and developments regarding Uniti, we will be updating the Naim Forum weekly with progress updates and upcoming software and firmware release information within this post.

Chag -

I do not know precisely which software platform the Core relies upon but it is likely to be a GNU/Linux one. It is conceivable that Naim cannot rely on a lot of experience on this platform. This could perhaps explain the initial difficulties and delays. It is also possible that they are trying to do too many things at the same time and developing own solutions in contrast to other manufacturers that are leveraging on available, well established tools. This might be rewarding but is also very ambitious. I frankly do not see the added value of developing a Core-specific  metadata editing solution. It seems to me an unnecessary waste of resources and I think that it would have been better (faster, cheaper, more user-friendly) if they had provided from the very beginning a flexible and safe import/export interface and support for remote editing Core rips via third-party tools. This would have likely required extending their internal proprietary medadata database to cope with more general indexing schemes. But it would have brought a clean future-proof solution instead of a patchy compromise. Just my two cents, of course ...

SC posted:

ChrisSU posted:

Richard Morris posted:

mikeyjfs posted:

…There are third party metadata editors out there.  I did try Metadatics (on Mac) for one or two items, before I got steered away by Naim on the basis of possible database corruption....

 

A worrying statement - I use Metadatics on a UnitiServe - any more details?

For CD rips, Naim's acvice is that you should only use N-Serve for metadata editing, and never make any changes to music files and folders by accessing them on a computer. For downloads, this does not apply, Metadatics is fine, and they are stored in a separate folder.

Richard – as ChrisSU correctly states,...

Providing you can gain access to the Naim rips, there is actually nothing stopping you embedding metadata in the files (inc WAV) with 3rd party software – however I think the advice not to stems from the fear that it could potentially corrupt the internal database, i.e that, with the external text info file still in place, it sees two sets of metadata and starts to get itself in a pickle......

But wouldn't it be possible to export the internal rips, do all the metadata editing on a platform/tool of one's choice and reimport the files to the downloads folder?

This would require removing the internal rips to avoid duplicates, of course. But it would be a clean and universal solution.

By the way, this is also the standard workflow for downloads: files are downloaded from a provider to a laptop or desktop machine, edited there and finally transferred to the UPnP server and to backup devices.

nbpf posted:

SC posted:

ChrisSU posted:

Richard Morris posted:

mikeyjfs posted:

…There are third party metadata editors out there.  I did try Metadatics (on Mac) for one or two items, before I got steered away by Naim on the basis of possible database corruption....

 

A worrying statement - I use Metadatics on a UnitiServe - any more details?

For CD rips, Naim's acvice is that you should only use N-Serve for metadata editing, and never make any changes to music files and folders by accessing them on a computer. For downloads, this does not apply, Metadatics is fine, and they are stored in a separate folder.

Richard – as ChrisSU correctly states,...

Providing you can gain access to the Naim rips, there is actually nothing stopping you embedding metadata in the files (inc WAV) with 3rd party software – however I think the advice not to stems from the fear that it could potentially corrupt the internal database, i.e that, with the external text info file still in place, it sees two sets of metadata and starts to get itself in a pickle......

But wouldn't it be possible to export the internal rips, do all the metadata editing on a platform/tool of one's choice and reimport the files to the downloads folder?

This would require removing the internal rips to avoid duplicates, of course. But it would be a clean and universal solution.

By the way, this is also the standard workflow for downloads: files are downloaded from a provider to a laptop or desktop machine, edited there and finally transferred to the UPnP server and to backup devices.

Absolutely correct. And actually the only way to do it (as far as I'm aware) as you are prevented from putting the files back into the internal store of the US and only have access to the 'user' Downloads folder.....This was all my grand plan – but I sort of hit a wall when it became apparent the US only really handles the few main 'top level' tag fields (Album, Artist, Title, Date etc) and besides, the App doesn't display and utilise all the additional extended metadata anyway......I could spend hours tagging away all my files and have them all populated with useful sorting info etc etc but the US was never go to serve them up..........You can't use another – more capable – UpNP server to access the US controlled stores, so it started to become a head scratch and question whether it was all worth it..........You could copy all the Naim ripped files out to an 'external' NAS based store, tag them and use an alternative UpNP software server, but this renders the US to be merely a £2k ripper.......

Many swear the Naim UpNP delivery has SQ benefits. In addition, I've been told that the external text file method of metadata tagging also benefits SQ. These are central elements and 'benefits' of the solution Naim want to offer. But, presently, it seems you can only have these if you are also prepared to accept limited library sorting and editing etc......You can go many other alternative ways and gain far more extended control and user experience, but you do so at the expense of breaking the chain that Naim would presumably want you to believe is all so important.......Rock and a hard place – and seems a bit of a farcical situation. This is WHY I presumed the Core was being released to replace the US etc and bring along new and additional functions from the present day audio server scene....As I said, seems an awful lot of R&D expense to just put it in a new suit....Or perhaps it wasn't!

Just updated my core with the new firmware, looks like it was available from yesterday.

Gazza posted:

Just updated my core with the new firmware, looks like it was available from yesterday.

Let the games begin....

Gazza posted:

Just updated my core with the new firmware, looks like it was available from yesterday.

And, And...!? What's been brought to the table then.....?

Surprised there hasn't been any promotion – As Chag points out, so much for regular Uniti Progress Updates.....

Scrap the above, just seen the Naim post added 10 mins ago.......

I would love to believe that I had something to do with the announcement 45mn ago.

It looks very promising even if not addressing all requests. Thank you Naim!

Chag -

Well, very pleased some basic editing functions have finally arrived and that you can now safely transfer previous Naim stores over to the Core..... 

So, after 4 months, we're back to at least the same capabilities of the US and HDX, minus a dedicated desktop App.....

The list of what it cannot do seems to be longer than the new cans:

Please Note:

- Editing of Composers and Conductors will not be enabled and is not currently planned as a future update.  
- The metadata editing functionality is based solely within the app, there is no desktop editing functionality.
- Only ripped CDs or CDs imported from a previous Naim server that have been ripped, can be edited.
- Music content in the Downloads Folder cannot be edited so the option will not be available.
- 'Artist Name' cannot be changed globally, only on a per CD basis.
- When a Uniti Core is updated to the firmware which includes the 'Edit Metadata' feature, if the database already includes music from a previously imported Naim collection any user edits applied on that collection will be reinstated automatically.

Still not even a Album Artist tag field....sigh. And if they are stating that the likes of Composers & Conductors isn't coming, then it seems very unlikely there will be much else..........Doesn't even sound like a Date tag is available now......... 

I guess I've just saved some funds – it would take a salesman who was selling coals to Newcastle as a child to come up with a persuasive argument for the Core over the US now – fancy glowing perplex base and all.....And as I find the US limiting re metadata etc, it seems the writings well and truly on the wall.......Have to say this all honestly really disappoints me.

I dip my head to HH – you called it right some time ago. I was just really wanting it to not be so....! My 'logic' upon the Core's announcement really led me to believe that Naim would slam dunk this and sail around your otherwise persuasive argument for NAS/Asset/Minim etc but, it seems as though Vardy has turned around on the 1/2 way line and whacked it into his own net......

How much is a Melco again...? 

Steve

I'm glad I've still got two Unitiserve's

My Core is going on eBay this weekend unless I can convince my dealer that I've been mis-sold.

SC posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

The Atom &Co. will have Roon, and access to Qobuz via google cast, as well as Tidal and internet radio. But the Core is a server, not a streamer, so Naim would say there is no need to include streaming services in a server. For some unknown reason people seem to be buying Cores, but anyone who doesn't feel it meets their needs doesn't have to. If someone wants to lug sofas around they can't complain once they've bought an Up! rather than a Passat. 

I agree – the Core is a Server. Only, it's not even fully doing that at present. In fact, if you're one of the unlucky users with numerous 'blank' albums and songs on your Core then it's even hampering...! That's the main point here.....

I personally don't care about a lot of the 'add ons' and see many of those features are more the domain of the 'streamer' – all I desire is a truly capable/functional reference server and 'hub' for all my music, with ability to edit–sort–categorise my collection, to be played around the place with Naim SQ from start to finish – I thought that's what was written on the tin ?

The problem is that streamers (in the sense of devices like Naim's NDS, ND5 XS, NDX, NAC-N 272, etc.) are really not a suitable platform for supporting Roon, internet streaming services, etc. See how painful it was for Naim supporting Tidal on their classical streamers. On the other hand, and in spite of what the Naim officials suggest, it would be perfectly sensible to run Roon endpoints, UPnP renderers and players providing access to Tidal, Qubuz, etc. on the Core. Paradoxically, as HH pointed out in many occasions, one can easily replace the Core as a UPnP server with a NAS. This will even bring better indexing and fuss-free data transfer. But replacing the Core as a player is not so simple. It requires something like a Mac Mini plus a USB->SPDIF converter. This, in turn, means replacing a one-box solution with two boxes or four if you add linear PSUs. One can replace the Core as a player and as a UPnP server with a Raspberry Pi + Hifiberry Digi+ Pro. This might indeed provide comparable SQ in a small box. But it is a DIY solution which is not accessible to everyone. This is the reason why Naim's policy is so depressing: they have built a nearly ideal source for their nDAC and NDSs but they do not give their users the freedom to take advantage of it. This is mean. On the top of it comes the fact that, as you point out, the Core does not work as expected even as a UPnP server! Has anyone dared trying it as a ripping station?

nbpf posted:

SC posted:

Hungryhalibut posted:

The Atom &Co. will have Roon, and access to Qobuz via google cast, as well as Tidal and internet radio. But the Core is a server, not a streamer, so Naim would say there is no need to include streaming services in a server. For some unknown reason people seem to be buying Cores, but anyone who doesn't feel it meets their needs doesn't have to. If someone wants to lug sofas around they can't complain once they've bought an Up! rather than a Passat. 

I agree – the Core is a Server. Only, it's not even fully doing that at present. In fact, if you're one of the unlucky users with numerous 'blank' albums and songs on your Core then it's even hampering...! That's the main point here.....

I personally don't care about a lot of the 'add ons' and see many of those features are more the domain of the 'streamer' – all I desire is a truly capable/functional reference server and 'hub' for all my music, with ability to edit–sort–categorise my collection, to be played around the place with Naim SQ from start to finish – I thought that's what was written on the tin ?

The problem is that streamers (in the sense of devices like Naim's NDS, ND5 XS, NDX, NAC-N 272, etc.) are really not a suitable platform for supporting Roon, internet streaming services, etc. See how painful it was for Naim supporting Tidal on their classical streamers. On the other hand, and in spite of what the Naim officials suggest, it would be perfectly sensible to run Roon endpoints, UPnP renderers and players providing access to Tidal, Qubuz, etc. on the Core. Paradoxically, as HH pointed out in many occasions, one can easily replace the Core as a UPnP server with a NAS. This will even bring better indexing and fuss-free data transfer. But replacing the Core as a player is not so simple. It requires something like a Mac Mini plus a USB->SPDIF converter. This, in turn, means replacing a one-box solution with two boxes or four if you add linear PSUs. One can replace the Core as a player and as a UPnP server with a Raspberry Pi + Hifiberry Digi+ Pro. This might indeed provide comparable SQ in a small box. But it is a DIY solution which is not accessible to everyone. This is the reason why Naim's policy is so depressing: they have built a nearly ideal source for their nDAC and NDSs but they do not give their users the freedom to take advantage of it. This is mean. On the top of it comes the fact that, as you point out, the Core does not work as expected even as a UPnP server! Has anyone dared trying it as a ripping station?

Nobody dare rip with it because the metadata can only be edited from a phone or tablet app and even then only the bare minimum of fields are accessible..........now and in the future

Watch the price of Unitiserve's increase now.....

That seems as likely as the value of my new loo brush increasing. 

it says my firmware is up to date, which i dont think is correct. Id tell you what version it is, but it doesnt make it obvious. Sigh.

SC posted:

Please Note:

- Editing of Composers and Conductors will not be enabled and is not currently planned as a future update.  
- The metadata editing functionality is based solely within the app, there is no desktop editing functionality.
- Only ripped CDs or CDs imported from a previous Naim server that have been ripped, can be edited.
- Music content in the Downloads Folder cannot be edited so the option will not be available.
- 'Artist Name' cannot be changed globally, only on a per CD basis.
- When a Uniti Core is updated to the firmware which includes the 'Edit Metadata' feature, if the database already includes music from a previously imported Naim collection any user edits applied on that collection will be reinstated automatically.

At least we know that Naim is joining Trump's pre-emptive strike on classical music. The "will not be enabled" in the first commandment is great: let's make sure that all these sick classical music intellectuals know that we could actually do it if we wanted so. Terrific. Great.

Cannot find the global options after choosing an album to edit"...........software is at version 1.4?

nbpf posted:

SC posted:

Please Note:

- Editing of Composers and Conductors will not be enabled and is not currently planned as a future update.  
- The metadata editing functionality is based solely within the app, there is no desktop editing functionality.
- Only ripped CDs or CDs imported from a previous Naim server that have been ripped, can be edited.
- Music content in the Downloads Folder cannot be edited so the option will not be available.
- 'Artist Name' cannot be changed globally, only on a per CD basis.
- When a Uniti Core is updated to the firmware which includes the 'Edit Metadata' feature, if the database already includes music from a previously imported Naim collection any user edits applied on that collection will be reinstated automatically.

At least we know that Naim is joining Trump's pre-emptive strike on classical music. The "will not be enabled" in the first commandment is great: let's make sure that all these sick classical music intellectuals know that we could actually do it if we wanted so. Terrific. Great.

I think Naim mean "won't be enabled by this update" rather than "they are there but we aren't going to enable them".

best

David

David Hendon posted:

nbpf posted:

SC posted:

Please Note:

- Editing of Composers and Conductors will not be enabled and is not currently planned as a future update.  
- The metadata editing functionality is based solely within the app, there is no desktop editing functionality.
- Only ripped CDs or CDs imported from a previous Naim server that have been ripped, can be edited.
- Music content in the Downloads Folder cannot be edited so the option will not be available.
- 'Artist Name' cannot be changed globally, only on a per CD basis.
- When a Uniti Core is updated to the firmware which includes the 'Edit Metadata' feature, if the database already includes music from a previously imported Naim collection any user edits applied on that collection will be reinstated automatically.

At least we know that Naim is joining Trump's pre-emptive strike on classical music. The "will not be enabled" in the first commandment is great: let's make sure that all these sick classical music intellectuals know that we could actually do it if we wanted so. Terrific. Great.

I think Naim mean "won't be enabled by this update" rather than "they are there but we aren't going to enable them".

best

David

I'm sure you are right. Still, a very impressive war bulletin. Best, nbpf

I know you are wed to a PC of Mac based control rather than tablet app, but the iPad app metadata editing works well, even if it's a bit limited, so I suggest you should at least give it a try before putting your Core on eBay.

best

David

David Hendon posted:

nbpf posted:

SC posted:

Please Note:

- Editing of Composers and Conductors will not be enabled and is not currently planned as a future update.  
- The metadata editing functionality is based solely within the app, there is no desktop editing functionality.
- Only ripped CDs or CDs imported from a previous Naim server that have been ripped, can be edited.
- Music content in the Downloads Folder cannot be edited so the option will not be available.
- 'Artist Name' cannot be changed globally, only on a per CD basis.
- When a Uniti Core is updated to the firmware which includes the 'Edit Metadata' feature, if the database already includes music from a previously imported Naim collection any user edits applied on that collection will be reinstated automatically.

At least we know that Naim is joining Trump's pre-emptive strike on classical music. The "will not be enabled" in the first commandment is great: let's make sure that all these sick classical music intellectuals know that we could actually do it if we wanted so. Terrific. Great.

I think Naim mean "won't be enabled by this update" rather than "they are there but we aren't going to enable them".

best

David

Same Same But Different is the phrase that comes to mind.....!

jon honeyball posted:

it says my firmware is up to date, which i dont think is correct. Id tell you what version it is, but it doesnt make it obvious. Sigh.

@jon honeyball If you still had the beta app installed and installed the new app over the beta, you have to "update source" to Release. Then I found restarting the app gave me the option to install the new release firmware immediately.

best

David

David Hendon posted:

...but the iPad app metadata editing works well, even if it's a bit limited

But it's that very issue that personally makes me want to scream........What the ideal UI is can be debated and I don't really care if I have to write all the metadata down on some ruled A4 with a 2B pencil and shove it in the slot – I just want the Core (or ideally my current US – not going to happen, I know) to read the flippin' info and genuinely do something useful with it.......

It says I have the new 1.4 version, but I choose an album but cannot find the global options tab?