Roon with NDS

David O'Higgins posted:

I have become very fond of Roon, particularly of the way it approaches random play of Classical music. I started it with Schubert Trout Quintet on Friday, and it took me on quite an odyssey via the 'Radio' function, each time playing a complete work, whether a concerto, a symphony or even an opera. I am running Roon Core on a Mini PC (eggsnow fanless), pointing to my music on a Melco, and I have directed the Mini Pc sound output to one of the USB ports, to which I have connected a cheap USB DAC which has a digital output and which then feeds a digital input on the NDS (renamed 'Roon'!). 

The sound quality, while excellent, is not as good as playing the same music from the Melco dedicated network connection to the NDS (using Nstream). My question is whether I can improve the result by replacing the USB DAC with something more sophisticated (dedicated power supply, etc.), and if so, what? 

I do not know the NDS but the electrical SPDIF input of the Naim DAC is quite sensitive to the quality of the incoming signal.

Thus, as already suggested, a good USB -> SPDIF reclocker and isolator with BNC connectors might improve on your current setup. The Mutec MC-3+USB is certainly a good option but I have not tried it in my system already. For the connection between the USB -> SPDIF and the Naim DAC I use Naim's DC1.

The CA thread on the Mutec (https://www.computeraudiophile...ic/16801-mutec-mc-3/) has been very active recently and there are rumors that Mutec will announce a lightweight version of the MC-3+USB at the Munich High end show in about two weeks.

David O'Higgins posted:

james n posted:

David - Expensive, but maybe worth looking at something like the Mutec MC-3 which will convert USB to S/PDIF to feed the NDS. Given the isolation / reclocking ability of the Mutec this should help level the playing field between your two music sources (Melco / Roon)

...

James, I took a look at the back of this unit, but I can't see a USB input. Can you elaborate please?

The one with USB input is called MC-3+ Smart Clock USB, see https://www.mutec-net.com/produkte.php

Reflecting on the Mutec vs much cheaper Gustard, I note that a primary function of the Mutec is re-clocking, which the Gustard doesn't do. Given that, I assume, NDS's DAC input doesn't re-clock because the unit is primarily designed to run from its own internal renderer, reclocking may well be crucial with the roon diverted source, unlike feeding a DAC that reclocks, whereas my earlier suggestion was addressing conversion from USB, while also isolating, but not the timing aspect.

Innocent Bystander posted:

Reflecting on the Mutec vs much cheaper Gustard, I note that a primary function of the Mutec is re-clocking, which the Gustard doesn't do. Given that, I assume, NDS's DAC input doesn't re-clock because the unit is primarily designed to run from its own internal renderer, reclocking may well be crucial with the roon diverted source, unlike feeding a DAC that reclocks, whereas my earlier suggestion was addressing conversion from USB, while also isolating, but not the timing aspect.

Very interesting remarks IB, thanks!

Innocent Bystander posted:

 Given that, I assume, NDS's DAC input doesn't re-clock because the unit is primarily designed to run from its own internal renderer, reclocking may well be crucial with the roon diverted source, unlike feeding a DAC that reclocks, whereas my earlier suggestion was addressing conversion from USB, while also isolating, but not the timing aspect.

The S/PDIF input still follows the usual Naim strategy since the Naim DAC of a RAM buffer (within the SHARC processor rather than external RAM in the NDS variant). Data from the buffer is re clocked by the NDS master clock before the DAC section so in theory it should be (mostly) isolated from incoming clock variations. This applies to the digital inputs and the Streamer section.

My advice on the Mutec was more based on the isolation than the re-clocking ability but it is a Swiss army knife of a converter !

Interesting comment NBPF on a more lightweight version of the Mutec as i'm quite interested in trying one of these between my Melco and Devialet, mainly to give the AES/EBU input on the Devialet a go. 

James

james n posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

 Given that, I assume, NDS's DAC input doesn't re-clock because the unit is primarily designed to run from its own internal renderer, reclocking may well be crucial with the roon diverted source, unlike feeding a DAC that reclocks, whereas my earlier suggestion was addressing conversion from USB, while also isolating, but not the timing aspect.

The S/PDIF input still follows the usual Naim strategy since the Naim DAC of a RAM buffer (within the SHARC processor rather than external RAM in the NDS variant). Data from the buffer is re clocked by the NDS master clock before the DAC section so in theory it should be (mostly) isolated from incoming clock variations. This applies to the digital inputs and the Streamer section.

My advice on the Mutec was more based on the isolation than the re-clocking ability but it is a Swiss army knife of a converter !

Interesting comment NBPF on a more lightweight version of the Mutec as i'm quite interested in trying one of these between my Melco and Devialet, mainly to give the AES/EBU input on the Devialet a go. 

James

In that case Gustard might suffice. I don't know if Richard Dane is monitoring this thread -if so maybe he could feed back on any conclusions from his testing of the Gustard, and his knowledge of NDS compared to (I think it was) NDAC that he was testing it with.

james n posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

 Given that, ...

...

Interesting comment NBPF on a more lightweight version of the Mutec as i'm quite interested in trying one of these between my Melco and Devialet, mainly to give the AES/EBU input on the Devialet a go. 

James

If you are interested in AES/EBU outputs, the Hydra Z (http://audiobyte.net/products/hydra-z) also seems an interesting device. As with the Mutec, I was planning to test it against my old M2Tech but I never managed to do so ... Best, nbpf

Sloop John B posted:

David, there is a software called Sonore UPnP bridge, which runs on a few products, the most useful in your scenario is the Sonic transporter (from small Green Computer). 

It basically sits on your network and allows the NDS to see Roon as a UPnP source. 

The Sonic transporter would take the place of your egg and DAC. 

AFAIK the NDS shows in the Roon app as an "endpoint" and receives the signal through Ethernet just as it would normally. 

.sjb

Very cool! Thanks, nbpf

David O'Higgins posted:

No it can't. Hence my question. The only way I can use Roon with an NDS is to feed the NDS with a direct digital input, as described.

Try this link. Add the bridge and Roon is sent via DNLA. I'm contemplating vs. MicroRendu setup.

https://forums.naimaudio.com/to...16#69708705634046216

I'm assuming this link is legal since it allows one to keep or buy a NDX and implement Roon. If not Richard will zap it. Put this in your system and along with Roon Core installed on a PC Mac etc it is all you need to implement Roon until Naim fully incorporates Roon software.

https://www.smallgreencomputer...ct&q=roon+bridge

simes_pep posted:

David O'Higgins posted:

Sloop John B posted:

David, there is a software called Sonore UPnP bridge, which runs on a few products, the most useful in your scenario is the Sonic transporter (from small Green Computer). 

It basically sits on your network and allows the NDS to see Roon as a UPnP source. 

The Sonic transporter would take the place of your egg and DAC. 

AFAIK the NDS shows in the Roon app as an "endpoint" and receives the signal through Ethernet just as it would normally. 

.sjb

Thanks John. I am confused because you refer to Sonore UPnP bridge as 'software' but when I google it, I seem to be looking at another piece of hardware. Can you elaborate a bit please?

 

The Sonore UPnP Bridge is software, however it is only available on the Sonore hardware products.

The cheapest and dedicated to the UPnP Bridge is https://www.smallgreencomputer...?variant=32991451407
The rest that can also run your Roon Core are here https://www.smallgreencomputer...ections/audio-server

Does this help? Thanks, Simon.

So, Roon Core and UPnP bridge run on the smallgreencomputer? Are they both preloaded? I have a Roon subscription, do I need to buy UPnP bridge too? 

Thanks for your help,

David

Your license for Roon Core plus the Bridge is all you need. As I understand the bridge does not contain Roon just the Core PC. It te DNLA handshake yo the Naim streamer.

mackb3 posted:

Your license for Roon Core plus the Bridge is all you need. As I understand the bridge does not contain Roon just the Core PC. It te DNLA handshake yo the Naim streamer.

Every time I think I am about to understand this, it recedes into the distance. Can anyone set out in simple steps what I need to do / buy?

Thanks,

David

This is my inquiry on the Roon Forum and answer from Jesus founder of Sonore. Hope this helps David.

Mack

23d

Jesus_Rodriguez

 

So I would need a core for Roon (Mac mini, appropriately powered NAS or the like), Roon license and the Sonore Bridge on the network and I'm good to go to run Roon via the NDX?

M

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Jesus_RodriguezFounder of SONORE Computer Audio

21d

 

That is correct.

I had a go with Roon, and concluded this:

PRos:-

• Good if you use Tidal, because it integrates seemlessly with your own collection, to the pointbwhere Inthink it could end up being uncertain whether you're browsing your own collection or Tidal.
• It provides links to explore what else the artists on a recording have done, if you want to explore that*
• it offers hints as to possibly similar music (loosely similar to Rovi)*
• It may suit if you want to be told what is currently popular - in fact when you first go on that is in your face, however you can minimise it.
• If you want to link to internet radio from within the same player (not integrated, and at present you have to find and provide the links to stations you want - it doesn't have an internet radio database: but to an NDS user with Naim App access to IR that is irrelevant.

         *subject to good enough metadata for Roon to recognise your music.

Cons:-

• No integration of online streaming services other than Tidal -  Qobuz etc don't seem to be supported at present, but with NDS thta presumably isn't a problem.
• It doesn't work as well with poor metadata as the Naim App (maybe tha depends on your UPnP server, but when I used Naim App I could browse using purely the file and folder structure, which Roon doesn't do
• It seems quite costly for a library service.
  
  

On balance, it doesn't provide anything that I value so is not valu efor money, so I have rejected Roon.

Innocent Bystander posted:

I had a go with Roon, and concluded this:

PRos:-

• Good if you use Tidal, because it integrates seemlessly with your own collection, to the pointbwhere Inthink it could end up being uncertain whether you're browsing your own collection or Tidal.
• It provides links to explore what else the artists on a recording have done, if you want to explore that*
• it offers hints as to possibly similar music (loosely similar to Rovi)*
• It may suit if you want to be told what is currently popular - in fact when you first go on that is in your face, however you can minimise it.
• If you want to link to internet radio from within the same player (not integrated, and at present you have to find and provide the links to stations you want - it doesn't have an internet radio database: but to an NDS user with Naim App access to IR that is irrelevant.

         *subject to good enough metadata for Roon to recognise your music.

Cons:-

• No integration of online streaming services other than Tidal -  Qobuz etc don't seem to be supported at present, but with NDS thta presumably isn't a problem.
• It doesn't work as well with poor metadata as the Naim App (maybe tha depends on your UPnP server, but when I used Naim App I could browse using purely the file and folder structure, which Roon doesn't do
• It seems quite costly for a library service.
  
  

On balance, it doesn't provide anything that I value so is not valu efor money, so I have rejected Roon.

That's an interesting assessment, IB. I've never bothered to do the Roon free trial, but from what they say on their website, I've struggled to see how it can offer much more than the Naim app along with Rovi, including its links to Wikipedia etc. Plus as you already have a smartphone or tablet in your hand, you already have a browser at your fingertips. Perhaps Roon makes all this a bit slicker, but I can't see anything genuinely new to justify the cost of the subscription and extra hardware required.   

ChrisSU posted:

Innocent Bystander posted:

I had a go with Roon, and concluded this:

PRos:-

• Good if you use Tidal, because it integrates seemlessly with your own collection, to the pointbwhere Inthink it could end up being uncertain whether you're browsing your own collection or Tidal.
• It provides links to explore what else the artists on a recording have done, if you want to explore that*
• it offers hints as to possibly similar music (loosely similar to Rovi)*
• It may suit if you want to be told what is currently popular - in fact when you first go on that is in your face, however you can minimise it.
• If you want to link to internet radio from within the same player (not integrated, and at present you have to find and provide the links to stations you want - it doesn't have an internet radio database: but to an NDS user with Naim App access to IR that is irrelevant.

         *subject to good enough metadata for Roon to recognise your music.

Cons:-

• No integration of online streaming services other than Tidal -  Qobuz etc don't seem to be supported at present, but with NDS thta presumably isn't a problem.
• It doesn't work as well with poor metadata as the Naim App (maybe tha depends on your UPnP server, but when I used Naim App I could browse using purely the file and folder structure, which Roon doesn't do
• It seems quite costly for a library service.
  
  

On balance, it doesn't provide anything that I value so is not valu efor money, so I have rejected Roon.

That's an interesting assessment, IB. I've never bothered to do the Roon free trial, but from what they say on their website, I've struggled to see how it can offer much more than the Naim app along with Rovi, including its links to Wikipedia etc. Plus as you already have a smartphone or tablet in your hand, you already have a browser at your fingertips. Perhaps Roon makes all this a bit slicker, but I can't see anything genuinely new to justify the cost of the subscription and extra hardware required.   

The two things that stood out most were the complete seemless integration of Tidal, and the additional information. The former is of no value to me as I am not interested in Tidal. The latter goes further than Tidal, and I could see a benefit, but at the same time some of it was too much, reminiscent of social media, and for me at least the irriattion outweighed the benefit - though others may disagree (just as I dislike Facebook intensely, but some people seem to be unable to live without it).

Innocent Bystander posted:

I had a go with Roon, and concluded this:

PRos:-

• Good if you use Tidal, because it integrates seemlessly with your own collection, to the pointbwhere Inthink it could end up being uncertain whether you're browsing your own collection or Tidal.
• It provides links to explore what else the artists on a recording have done, if you want to explore that*
• it offers hints as to possibly similar music (loosely similar to Rovi)*
• It may suit if you want to be told what is currently popular - in fact when you first go on that is in your face, however you can minimise it.
• If you want to link to internet radio from within the same player (not integrated, and at present you have to find and provide the links to stations you want - it doesn't have an internet radio database: but to an NDS user with Naim App access to IR that is irrelevant.

         *subject to good enough metadata for Roon to recognise your music.

Cons:-

• No integration of online streaming services other than Tidal -  Qobuz etc don't seem to be supported at present, but with NDS thta presumably isn't a problem.
• It doesn't work as well with poor metadata as the Naim App (maybe tha depends on your UPnP server, but when I used Naim App I could browse using purely the file and folder structure, which Roon doesn't do
• It seems quite costly for a library service.
  
  

On balance, it doesn't provide anything that I value so is not valu efor money, so I have rejected Roon.

Interesting assessment IB, thanks for sharing! If one is after Tidal and Qobuz (and Google music) integration at the control point level, one can also try upmpdcli (with the ancillary upmpdcli-tidal, upmpdcli-qobuz and upmpdcli-gmusic packages). It is as simple and straightforward as it gets and comes with no social media noise.

Of course, even if unable to use Roon through a Naim streamer at present, if you have a computer networked to your music store you can always take a free trial of Roon and see how you like its presentation and browsing and linking, without playing a single piece of music, so easy for anyone to decide for themselves.

So it depends on what your requirements are.

If you already have the Roon Core running in your environment, then you only need to introduce the UPnP bridge product (hardware and software), to make the Naim player a Roon Endpoint. This is this device: https://www.smallgreencomputer...?variant=32991451407

If however, you need to establish a Roon Core and wanted a combined device, much like your Melco, then the SonicTransporter can do both - these are at https://www.smallgreencomputer...ections/audio-server. However you need to look at the size constraits as the there some with optional disk, some larger i5 versions, even one with an i7 processor and one with 8TB of storage.

Thanks, Simon.

[@mention:41551091830475636], damned with faint praise, which in fairness is your experience.

 Of the cons there is a setting to let Roon use the files metadata (or subsets of it) if unhappy with what Roon gives.

Where the rich metadata comes into play is (for me) where it mines my collection, so for example, T-Bone Burnett

compared to asset through the Naim app

Focus is a wonderful feature, lets you explore most aspects of your music find Jazz albums on the ECM label I bought between 2012 and 2014, for example.

multiroom, full resolution replay,

ability to play to airplay and sonos and squeezebox devices.

app for windows, mac, linux, iOS and android

amend metadata on all formats (bar phone) as you listen.

The wonderful radio function which randomly selects for you if you wish

Whilst Tidal is wonderfully integrated for me the best part of Roon is the window into my collection.

and that;s without mentioning volume levelling, parametric equalisation, and upsampling PCM or to DSD.

Quite costly! Lifetime membership is the bargain of the century with all due respect to a HiLine.

.sjb

I fully agree John (sjb!), it's the best window on a collection I've seen. I would also mention the availability of lyrics for many tracks. But I still can't envisage how the NDS would work with the two required Sonore boxes, and crucially, whether it would close the gap to my current cheap USB / Minipc solution. Anyone tried it yet?

Sorry to reply to my own reply, but I yesterday took delivery of a SonoreUpnp Bridge. I connected it to my network, and with a bit of rummaging through this and other related threads, I am now listening to the NDS streaming via Upnp from Roon. 

So I didn't have to replace my mini Pc, which saved about €1,000 (incl. freight and taxes), compared to earlier suggestions. The Bridge cost under €300, including freight and taxes. 

Now I need some time to listen, and see if this really is the best of both worlds. 

Finally, one Roon advantage which I don't recall seeing mentioned, is that many tracks have lyrics available - and as readable as the good old LP days!

Thanks to all who got me this far.

David

I can understand folk thinking  'the extra bits and bobs' I need are putting me off trying/using roon. So I made sure that the NAS I bought was able to run the roon core. And btw 'it' runs fine on a NAS with a Celeron cpu. A Qnap 453a in my case. The i3 or i5,i7. NOT NEEDED people. The SSD to run the roon core data base on I think is a good idea. So I run Roon on the NAS, connect the good old trusty squeezebox touch to the switch instead of the UQ and feed the digital out of the SBT to the UQ and Bob is indeed your uncle. I can not hear a difference in sound quality between UQ fed by NAS >minimserver>UQ (upnp) or NAS >roon>SBT >UQ. But this is me. A 57 year old who doesn't hear anything above 14 kHz (I found out nae long ago). But to get Roon 'Up and runnin' is easy as fawk people. And it is a great experience, I must admit. With the more expensive gear and better ears your  milage may vary but with my simple and cheap solution I am a very happy chap. 

Flo

So just to report, with the launch of ROCK on Friday, which is the Roon Optimzed Core Kit for NUC type devices, I have installed on a 4th Gen i3 NUC with 8GB & a 240GB mSATA SSD (this isn't a tested environment, as is legacy kit, surplus from work - Roon are favouring the 5th, 6th and latest NUC devices) but is working fine for my 75k track library. I was able to easily migrate my existing Roon library from the Windows version to the ROCK version, using database Backup & Restore functions, all with very clear instructions for each step.

This is now the user interface on the iPad Roon Remote, exactly the same as the Windows & Mac versions, with only the iPhone being an optimised version.

I have now ordered the SonicOrbiter SE device, which can run the UPnP Bridge software, as Small Green Computers were offering free shipping over the weekend, saving $50 on the cost to Dublin, Ireland.

Still a shame they don't offer the dedicated UPnP Bridge product at $169 anymore. Anyway one step closer to have my NDS as a Roon Endpoint.

[@mention:1566878603867476] What has been your listening experience so far?

Thanks, Simon