Roon with NDS

Simon, having sorted out the settings with the help of the Roon Community Forum, the system is now sounding  at least as good as it did using the Naim app, so with all the additional functionality, there is no going back. I have had no dropouts, and no 'Room not found' messages etc. It just works, and I've heard a lot of music I'd forgotten about. I really like the way that it will play all the movements of a classical piece, rather than 'bleeding chunks'. 

It is a system which needs to be experienced to be understood.

Reminds me - need to cancel my subscription before my trial period ends

Bummer the $165 bridge is not offered anymore by SGC but it did say beta on their site. However, the upcoming UltraRendu will have the DLNA built in as a feature like the bridge for those keeping a Naim streamer on their network to incorporate Roon etc but want to see the benefit of a Rendu to USB DAC to whatever system, another hi fi, headphone, active speaker/DAC etc for another Roon endpoint.

MangoMonkey posted:

Reminds me - need to cancel my subscription before my trial period ends

MangoMonkey, are you referring to Roon? Can you give us a bit of background?

David

Another reason to love Roon. 

This is excerpt from the latest release, can't think of anyone else on top of their game like this: 

Roon Labs Community

Roon 1.3 (Build 233) Is Live!
Roon Software
Software Release Notes
1 / 3


mike
Roon Labs: Product
13h
Hi all,

A new release of Roon is now going live on all platforms!

...........

RAAT Audio Streaming Optimizations
Most audio streaming protocols are designed, implemented in hardware, and then set in stone. This happens because updating firmware in hardware devices is difficult, and when that hardware is made by dozens of different manufacturers it’s nearly impossible. That’s why most AirPlay users never install a firmware update--the device is speaking the same AirPlay protocol it did on day one.
In an ecosystem like that, evolving is difficult--too many changes and you end up with a range of devices each with slightly different behavior. This is a nightmare for QA and support, so device implementations for protocols like UPnP AV and AirPlay are often set in stone.
When we set out to design RAAT, we hoped for a brighter future -- a future that can evolve with our budding hardware ecosystem. Trying to push firmware updates to Roon users via our 60+ hardware partners wasn’t realistic, so we designed RAAT to work differently: Instead of baking the audio streaming protocol into the device firmware, the firmware contains the absolute minimum needed for us to "boot" a second piece of code delivered to the device the time when the Roon Core makes its connection to the device. This second piece code--delivered "just in time"--defines the streaming protocol that Roon uses to speak with RAAT devices.
Today's release of the core includes a re-design of RAAT's audio streaming protocol that uses TCP instead of UDP to transmit the audio stream.

In day-to-day life, most of the protocols you use are TCP-based--browsing the web, viewing Netflix or Youtube. Streaming audio using TIDAL, Spotify, OpenHome, UPnP, MPD, or SMB. The two most popular UDP streaming systems that most people have contact with are AirPlay and Skype.

We have decades of experience building audio streaming protocols around UDP, and it has generally been our first choice, but we also know that both TCP and UDP, when implemented properly, are suitable for high-bandwidth, high-quality media streaming, so it was worth undertaking an exploration of "the other side" to see if there was actually a reason to consider switching.

After a series of experiments and prototypes, and a detailed exploration of both approaches, we found that we were able to extract more performance and reliability from TCP, so we took it to the next phase and started experimenting with TCP in our alpha environment a couple of months ago.

We found that using TCP reduces CPU load on the audio device and in the core--primarily by reducing the context switching overhead associated with “waking up” for each packet. Using TCP also allows us to offload work associated with re-assembling the packetized audio stream from RAAT to the operating system kernel on the audio device, where it can be implemented more efficiently and simply.

We also found that TCP is a lot "friendlier" to poor networks and routers. Not all router manufacturers perform extensive QA with high-resolution UDP audio streams, but they all test to make sure Netflix and Youtube (both TCP-based) work. TCP is also less likely to create trouble with exotic network setups--managed switches, jumbo frames, etc. If you have experienced trouble with these, it's definitely worth taking another shot to see if the new protocol is easier on your network.

This change rolls out as part of the update to your Roon Core--which will use the new protocol when speaking to all RAAT-based zones. Aside from updating the core, no firmware or software updates are required on any of your devices.

.....................

CAVEAT: I don't have Roon set to update automatically just in case there are initial issues. I'll be giving it a day or 2 before upgrading once the forum shows no upgrade hotspots  

.sjb

Well SJB, I don't follow all the the tech., but when I went to listen this evening, I was told that Roon wanted to update both the Core and the IPad app, and said that this would take some time. So I went to watch the 800th + episode of a Spanish Soap which I have been watching for nearly 6 years. When I came back after 50 mins. or so, it was all updated. 

Is it better? Don't know, but at least I didn't have to get involved,and that's a mercy!

james n posted:

David - Expensive, but maybe worth looking at something like the Mutec MC-3 which will convert USB to S/PDIF to feed the NDS. Given the isolation / reclocking ability of the Mutec this should help level the playing field between your two music sources (Melco / Roon)

+1  

I have one between my PC (connected by USB) and my NDAC.  Made a big difference, especially to Tidal streaming from the PC (which admittedly the NDS does for itself).   Levels all my sources upwards.

TL;DR: I tried Roon and I get why people love it.

Hi -

Sitting on the cusp of upgrades to new Uniti devices as and when, and having a Mac mini in my living room (connected to TV and via TosLink to SuperUniti (main system) and via AirPlay (with Airport Express as wireless bridge) to v1 Qute (ie no Tidal) in bedroom upstairs, I have followed the recommendation of several Roon advocates and installed the Roon Core and App. (Whew, thanks for reading that entire sentence!)

I had Friday off and enjoyed the ease of download, install, and early navigation of NAS and Tidal content. I fell into the trap of adding "curated genres" to Tidal, which messed up the "MyMusic" section of my Tidal app, but easily found instructions for undoing that, and learned about the Roon approach to custom grouping via Tags in the process. 

Thus far it has been fun. I enjoy the "liner notes" aspect of this, and the hyperlink suggestions to related content. My girlfriend really likes this aspect - something we have both struggled with in Tidal, which has a lot of choice but no easy way to receive suggestions. As a "better Tidal" front end alone, Roon is likely worth the purchase. 

I'm torn though, as it calls the "all in one" paradigm, which I embrace, into question. Ok, not if Naim eventually introduce Roon EndPoint functionality alongside Spotify, Tidal, Airplay and ChromeCast... Should I choose a totally different upgrade path to non-networked hardware plus network connectors (AE or better)? Should I stick with the joint model and count the two different access paths (via native Naim app and external Roon app) as an additional flexibility feature? Should I just settle on one or the other? I don't know. In part because I already like both. In part because my preference for Tidal (on the SU) over Spotify Connect is as much for the app integration as the sound quality boost. 

With all that said, and after only a couple of days poking around, the huge appeal of a highly developed curation and content management approach is clear to me. I'm also very impressed by the continuous improvement attitude of the Roon team. Adding new features (Sonos) and adjusting their basic network streaming approach (TCP rather than UDP) on the fly and with essentially zero user intervention is quite amazing (and inspires me to support them in the same way I try to shop in the local village stores since I want them to stay in business). 

Recommended, especially if you happen to have any sort of computer already attached to your system (as I believe many of us do). 

Regards alan

Alan, let's not lose sight of reality here. 'Source First' means that, for me, the hardware comes before the App software, in that programs like Roon cannot improve on the sound which Naim is delivering, but can certainly add enormously to the quality of the experience.

BTW, UDP is very common and causes less overhead in protocol stacks compared to TCP. If you use IPTV such as BT vision it uses multicast streaming which is UDP. Also VoIP or any low latency streaming is UDP based, and of course multicast discovery as used in UPnP is multicast, i.e. UDP. The advantage of UDP is low complexity, efficiency and speed, the down side is that it needs a reliable network, and kludges like power line adapters tend to fall down and noisy wifi can suffer with UDP, where as TCP can try and recover.

David O'Higgins posted:

Alan, let's not lose sight of reality here. 'Source First' means that, for me, the hardware comes before the App software, in that programs like Roon cannot improve on the sound which Naim is delivering, but can certainly add enormously to the quality of the experience.

 

David, thanks for these insights, they are very helpful indeed. The quality of the experience cannot be underestimated, which is why for many people Roon capability is prerequisite. Before I found out that you could run Roon via upnp on a Naim streamer, I sadly had to switch off my NDX and use something else instead. But sound quality has not suffered, actually in my case it has improved, not least because the capital that is set free by using a more cost-efficient transport solution can be re-invested in improved source and Naim amplification. It's good to know, however, that in an integrated Naim high-end system like your own, you have found a way to include Roon without jumping through too many hoops. ATB, William 

William posted:

David O'Higgins posted:

Alan, let's not lose sight of reality here. 'Source First' means that, for me, the hardware comes before the App software, in that programs like Roon cannot improve on the sound which Naim is delivering, but can certainly add enormously to the quality of the experience.

 

David, thanks for these insights, they are very helpful indeed. The quality of the experience cannot be underestimated, which is why for many people Roon capability is prerequisite. Before I found out that you could run Roon via upnp on a Naim streamer, I sadly had to switch off my NDX and use something else instead. But sound quality has not suffered, actually in my case it has improved, not least because the capital that is set free by using a more cost-efficient transport solution can be re-invested in improved source and Naim amplification. It's good to know, however, that in an integrated Naim high-end system like your own, you have found a way to include Roon without jumping through too many hoops. ATB, William 

Would  be the interested in hearing how you get on with the Metrum Pavane. 

.sjb

sjb: The Pavane arrived yesterday and I can tell you it was a late night with my other half and with Roon. This DAC is magic (even though mine is "only" Level 1); the reviews available on the interweb describe its qualities better than I can, but if you can get your hands on one I strongly recommend a demo. The Nait XS 2 is doing a magnificent job as well. One problem is that the optical input on the Pavane maxes out at 96 kHz; however I believe better results can be achieved via coax or AES anyway. Unfortunately the coax on the Digi Pro is crackling and popping. Not wanting to start removing jumpers and solder things on, I may be forced to abandon the low-cost pi solution for an Aurelic Aries via AES. But for now, even with Pi/optical, there is so much more music.

Hi, I also use and love Roon, and use a Mac mini feeding a superuniti through an Audiophilleo USB to SPDIF converter.  It's been  excellent.  Incidentally I believe Naim licensed Audiophilleo technology for their first direct USB inputs on devices like the DAC-V1.

http://www.audiophilleo.com/

"In addition, the NAIM DAC-V1 is based on the Audiophilleo1 and the NAIM support page contains many useful documents on configuring various media player software. They can be found in the Manuals and Downloads section."

http://www.audiophilleo.com/Home/Support

 I have the pure power option which adds a battery to the set up further removing power line noise from the device.  The audiophilleo not only converts the signal, but also reclocks removing jitter and isolates USB power noise from the from the Mac mini, so very good all around.

There are other USB to SPDIF converters, these will give you better quality than the optical input which is limited in resolution vs. SPDIF.

Good luck!