Fraim Chips vs screws

Corry posted:

I’m about to embark on stripping my two Sound Factory Tripod stacks down and rebuilding them from scratch. I want to use the opportunity to incorporate a few tweaks and upgrades. For instance, I just received a pair of cryo-treated wall outlets from AV Options to replace the two regular hospital grade ones that have been there from the beginning (I already have 2 dedicated 20A circuits, one for the Naim gear, one for the LP12).

In terms of where the adjustable Tripod spikes meet the floor, I’ve been using the old-school approach, namely a set of beefy 2” Philips head screws. They’re very stable, and I like that I can make tiny adjustments to get everything level. But it seems that Fraim Chips are now the way to go, so I’m contemplating using those instead. The floor is solid new oak planks over existing century old fir planks on joists.

A quick search suggests that the Chips should be better because, despite the tiny contact area, the screws are less effective at decoupling the stand from the floor - but has anybody done an actual comparison between the two? I’ve had good success with Chips under my speaker stands, however the stands had previously been spiked directly into the wood. If the difference between Chips and screws is negligible, I’m not sure I want to bother.

Thanks,

Colm

Good luck with that request!

Aaahh….the days of screws into the floor to mount your speakers and rack on. My then girlfriend thought I was completely bonkers and always tried nervously, and I must say, heroically to explain why we had screws in our carpet with speaker stands perched precariously on top. I enjoyed the bumbling explanation, which to be fair, she perfected over the years. Bless her, I think she was trying to suggest to our visitors that I was completely sane and not at all bonkers. Not sure her efforts were entirely (well never really) successful.

I am pleased to say my then girlfriend is now my wife (of some 32 years) so she either got over her impressions of me as a rather eccentric (I would say enthusiastic) audiophile or she has simply forgiven me and has resigned herself to my, let's say, mildly strange behaviour when it come to hi fi.

Corry posted:

 

A quick search suggests that the Chips should be better because, despite the tiny contact area, the screws are less effective at decoupling the stand from the floor - but has anybody done an actual comparison between the two? I’ve had good success with Chips under my speaker stands, however the stands had previously been spiked directly into the wood. If the difference between Chips and screws is negligible, I’m not sure I want to bother.

Thanks,

Colm

I have. We've an oak floor resting on a thin membrane, then onto a compressed flint & mud floor. When I had SL2s I did do the screw thing  (drilling into the flint was fun...) but I found that chips sounded at least as good. In those days I used the chips the right way up but after a visit from Mr Darke Bear of the parish we tried them upside down; this with my existing DBLs. Sounds even better that way, so easy to try.

tonym posted:

I have. We've an oak floor resting on a thin membrane, then onto a compressed flint & mud floor. When I had SL2s I did do the screw thing  (drilling into the flint was fun...) but I found that chips sounded at least as good. In those days I used the chips the right way up but after a visit from Mr Darke Bear of the parish we tried them upside down; this with my existing DBLs. Sounds even better that way, so easy to try.

this is interesting. i wonder if its because with the chips upside down -- there is no risk of them being 'off centre'?

enjoy...

ken

Its because the sharp ring that makes contact with ground when they are upside down , makes much less contact with the ground than when they are the right way up. I have done this too with my DBL's and agree it is an improvement. I dare say there will be a ring impression on the floor from the 100kgs of speaker but at least you can find the exact same spot they where in when you move them away!

Mario.

I owned one of the very first tripod stands and had it for many years, and again used screws into the floor. I wonder if it's worth trying one of the more modern alternatives, given the quality of equipment sitting on it. 

I still have in my loft 4 levels of the original Tripods together with the Creek amp and Linn Axis / K18 bought from sadly missed Griffin Audio in Birmingham. I have been saying I will put them on Ebay for at least 10 years!

When I started with the Naim thing and eventually an LP12, the gear did sound better with the 'pods on screw heads but the TT had to go on a wall shelf as, having floorboards, foot-tapping would cause too much bounce.

I migrated to Isoblue as it had more WAF than a Fraim and yes it did make a big difference.

Corry posted:

I’m about to embark on stripping my two Sound Factory Tripod stacks down and rebuilding them from scratch. I want to use the opportunity to incorporate a few tweaks and upgrades. For instance, I just received a pair of cryo-treated wall outlets from AV Options to replace the two regular hospital grade ones that have been there from the beginning (I already have 2 dedicated 20A circuits, one for the Naim gear, one for the LP12).

 

Thanks,

Colm

In two words, Better Isolation, Naim nuts & Bolts already secured, waiting on local Glass Company to replicate Naim Glass to spec!

Technology  has improved in the last 3 decades, and I've tried screws, MDF particle boards, etc...

Fraimlite was equivalent to an Black Box upgrade, in my case! 

Can't wait to see the improvement with Naim Glass & Cups & Balls! 

Left stack used from the Netherlands, $1200 shipped to the US.

Right Stack New, Canadian Market, Crossed the border $900 USD! 

My new model, if I can't use it, I loose it! 

I do miss my Kans! 

Allante93! 

Although I’ve no doubt my system would benefit hugely from a Fraim, I’m stuck with the Tripods. In the interests of domestic acceptability, the two stacks sit inside a custom built walnut cabinet, which encloses them tightly, but doesn’t touch them at any point. The top and the right side panel come off to allow access to the back.

My long term goal is to do whatever I can to get the best out of them. I’ve already separated the fibreboard shelves from the supports with tiny ceramic balls, which rest in existing tapped holes on the upper surfaces. On most of the shelves, I’ve also added a layer of glass, separated from the fibreboard by ceramic balls on small machine screws – mini ball nutters. These tweaks have made a significant improvement – possibly the best vfm in my system in terms of sound per pound.

As well as the cryo-treated Hubbell outlets mentioned above, I also plan on lining the sides, top, and much of the back with Dedshete. The sound is slightly better with the doors open and the side panel off, and at least one person has commented that their pre is happiest on the top of their rack with not even a shelf above it. So I’m hopeful that the Dedshete will reduce whatever ill effects are caused by the enclosing cabinet and the back wall.

The system is already dominating that end of the room somewhat – there’s a staircase to the basement just beside the fig plant – so even if I could roll back the clock, I’d be uneasy about contemplating a Fraim, which would be a good few inches wider and deeper. All things considered, this may be one of those compromises I have to live with, hence my interest in doing whatever I can to optimise it (you can only imagine what a challenge it is to get decent cable dressing down the back of those racks).

ken c posted:

tonym posted:

I have. We've an oak floor resting on a thin membrane, then onto a compressed flint & mud floor. When I had SL2s I did do the screw thing  (drilling into the flint was fun...) but I found that chips sounded at least as good. In those days I used the chips the right way up but after a visit from Mr Darke Bear of the parish we tried them upside down; this with my existing DBLs. Sounds even better that way, so easy to try.

this is interesting. i wonder if its because with the chips upside down -- there is no risk of them being 'off centre'?

enjoy...

ken

I imagine using Chips upside down would be easier in my situation than under speakers. There are three legs instead of four, so no worries about rattling, and it ought to be easy to get the spikes centred, and then recheck them every time I add a level and a box, until I get to the point where they're sufficiently loaded that they're not going to go anywhere.

tonym posted:

Corry posted:

 A quick search suggests that the Chips should be better because, despite the tiny contact area, the screws are less effective at decoupling the stand from the floor - but has anybody done an actual comparison between the two? I’ve had good success with Chips under my speaker stands, however the stands had previously been spiked directly into the wood. If the difference between Chips and screws is negligible, I’m not sure I want to bother.

I have. We've an oak floor resting on a thin membrane, then onto a compressed flint & mud floor. When I had SL2s I did do the screw thing  (drilling into the flint was fun...) but I found that chips sounded at least as good. In those days I used the chips the right way up but after a visit from Mr Darke Bear of the parish we tried them upside down; this with my existing DBLs. Sounds even better that way, so easy to try.

That's helpful, Tony, thanks.

@ Corry

Got it, I'm waiting on the dedicated mains, and Foot Tapper's external solution of cleaning the electrical feed, before entering the home!

Better to have a little humming outside vs inside!

Funny thing, when its wet outside, my system performs at its Best!

Its a constant light rain, and the tunes are kicking!

Sounds like you're on the right track!

Good Luck!

Allante93!

Mario posted:

Its because the sharp ring that makes contact with ground when they are upside down , makes much less contact with the ground than when they are the right way up. I have done this too with my DBL's and agree it is an improvement. I dare say there will be a ring impression on the floor from the 100kgs of speaker but at least you can find the exact same spot they where in when you move them away!

I hadn't thought about the possibility of the Chips leaving an impression, but I don't think I need worry about it. It's likely that my system is going to be in that location for many years to come - it may outlive me - so if ever a time comes when it needs to be taken out, I imagine the floor underneath it will need to be refinished anyway (not to mention dealing with the existing screw holes under the spikes).

Allante93 posted:

@ Corry

Got it, I'm waiting on the dedicated mains, and Foot Tapper's external solution of cleaning the electrical feed, before entering the home!

Better to have a little humming outside vs inside!

Funny thing, when its wet outside, my system performs at its Best!

Its a constant light rain, and the tunes are kicking!

Sounds like you're on the right track!

Good Luck!

Allante93!

Thank you! I think I’ve done a fair job optimising my system within my restrictions. You can’t see it, but on the back wall behind the middle shelf on the left rack is a small glass-and-fibreboard ball nutter shelf that accommodates an Audience ar6 PDC power distributor. Once I get the cryo-treated Hubbells installed, I believe I’ll be maxed out in terms of mains quality.

My other big restriction is cable dressing. The space at the back is very tight, and very difficult to access properly. It’s impossible for all the key signal cables to hang freely, so there’s a huge number of carefully deployed bubble wrap spacers in there. I’m actually looking forward to ripping all that out and redoing it from scratch. The system has been there for 10 years without a full rebuild: I’m somewhat in awe of those forumites who rebuild their Fraim stacks once or even twice a year.

Regarding cable dressing, if anyone knows of a better material than bubble wrap for keeping cables apart in a severely restricted space, I’m all ears. I’m thinking about trying various types of foam (the eggcrate stuff you can buy), cut up grey/black pipe insulation, etc.

Regarding weather conditions, I find my system sounds best when it’s cool and drizzly (which in Seattle is often). It’s also markedly better late at night, which I suspect is down to a combination of improved mains quality and reduced ambient noise.

Ron Brinsdon posted:

I migrated to Isoblue as it had more WAF than a Fraim and yes it did make a big difference.

I've been tempted by Isoblue. Many have commented that it's second only to Fraim, and I like how compact it is. I may switch to that at some point in the future, if I can verify that two stacks of it will fit without my having to rip out the cabinet.

Corry posted:

Ron Brinsdon posted:

I migrated to Isoblue as it had more WAF than a Fraim and yes it did make a big difference.

I've been tempted by Isoblue. Many have commented that it's second only to Fraim, and I like how compact it is. I may switch to that at some point in the future, if I can verify that two stacks of it will fit without my having to rip out the cabinet.

Isoblue works well for me. Easy to set up, but use a spirit level. Dimensions are on their website if you need them.

Corry posted:

Although I’ve no doubt my system would benefit hugely from a Fraim, I’m stuck with the Tripods. In the interests of domestic acceptability, the two stacks sit inside a custom built walnut cabinet, which encloses them tightly, but doesn’t touch them at any point. The top and the right side panel come off to allow access to the back.

 

 

I guess I was singing to the Choir, Isolation,  Mana Phase 4! 

Nice display, Cabinet & LP12, You think you could add a little more Isolation to that Radikal Keel ! LOL.....

Nice Profile.

Out! 

Allante93!

After fitting the new wall outlets, keep in mind that these too take break in time, just like new cables etc. So the sound may not be what you expect/hope right from the start... 

Corry posted:

Allante93 posted:

@ Corry

Got it, I'm waiting on the dedicated mains, and Foot Tapper's external solution of cleaning the electrical feed, before entering the home!

Better to have a little humming outside vs inside!

Funny thing, when its wet outside, my system performs at its Best!

Its a constant light rain, and the tunes are kicking!

Sounds like you're on the right track!

Good Luck!

Allante93!

Thank you! I think I’ve done a fair job optimising my system within my restrictions. You can’t see it, but on the back wall behind the middle shelf on the left rack is a small glass-and-fibreboard ball nutter shelf that accommodates an Audience ar6 PDC power distributor. Once I get the cryo-treated Hubbells installed, I believe I’ll be maxed out in terms of mains quality.

My other big restriction is cable dressing. The space at the back is very tight, and very difficult to access properly. It’s impossible for all the key signal cables to hang freely, so there’s a huge number of carefully deployed bubble wrap spacers in there. I’m actually looking forward to ripping all that out and redoing it from scratch. The system has been there for 10 years without a full rebuild: I’m somewhat in awe of those forumites who rebuild their Fraim stacks once or even twice a year.

Regarding cable dressing, if anyone knows of a better material than bubble wrap for keeping cables apart in a severely restricted space, I’m all ears. I’m thinking about trying various types of foam (the eggcrate stuff you can buy), cut up grey/black pipe insulation, etc.

Regarding weather conditions, I find my system sounds best when it’s cool and drizzly (which in Seattle is often). It’s also markedly better late at night, which I suspect is down to a combination of improved mains quality and reduced ambient noise.

I have just re-dressed all my cables and raised those that are on the floor, off the floor all using cut up pieces of foam pipe insulation. Before you snip it (I use about 2cm lengths) tear it along its length at one point across the diameter (they usually come partially pre cut along the length) and then you can simply 'clip' each piece in place.

I was about to launch a range of audio grade foam pipe insulation cable risers/spacers but others on here have undercut me by using contraptions made out of cardboard toilet rolls! But seriously pieces of foam pipe insulation are perfect where space is tight and they are easy to adjust to the correct position.

Have fun.

nigelb posted:

Corry posted:

Allante93 posted:

@ Corry

Got it, I'm waiting on the dedicated mains, and Foot Tapper's external solution of cleaning the electrical feed, before entering the home!

Better to have a little humming outside vs inside!

Funny thing, when its wet outside, my system performs at its Best!

Its a constant light rain, and the tunes are kicking!

Sounds like you're on the right track!

Good Luck!

Allante93!

Thank you! I think I’ve done a fair job optimising my system within my restrictions. You can’t see it, but on the back wall behind the middle shelf on the left rack is a small glass-and-fibreboard ball nutter shelf that accommodates an Audience ar6 PDC power distributor. Once I get the cryo-treated Hubbells installed, I believe I’ll be maxed out in terms of mains quality.

My other big restriction is cable dressing. The space at the back is very tight, and very difficult to access properly. It’s impossible for all the key signal cables to hang freely, so there’s a huge number of carefully deployed bubble wrap spacers in there. I’m actually looking forward to ripping all that out and redoing it from scratch. The system has been there for 10 years without a full rebuild: I’m somewhat in awe of those forumites who rebuild their Fraim stacks once or even twice a year.

Regarding cable dressing, if anyone knows of a better material than bubble wrap for keeping cables apart in a severely restricted space, I’m all ears. I’m thinking about trying various types of foam (the eggcrate stuff you can buy), cut up grey/black pipe insulation, etc.

Regarding weather conditions, I find my system sounds best when it’s cool and drizzly (which in Seattle is often). It’s also markedly better late at night, which I suspect is down to a combination of improved mains quality and reduced ambient noise.

I have just re-dressed all my cables and raised those that are on the floor, off the floor all using cut up pieces of foam pipe insulation. Before you snip it (I use about 2cm lengths) tear it along its length at one point across the diameter (they usually come partially pre cut along the length) and then you can simply 'clip' each piece in place.

I was about to launch a range of audio grade foam pipe insulation cable risers/spacers but others on here have undercut me by using contraptions made out of cardboard toilet rolls! But seriously pieces of foam pipe insulation are perfect where space is tight and they are easy to adjust to the correct position.

Have fun.

Nail the cables to the floor, it costs less and they'll sound better 

Yes, foam pipe insulation might cost a few pence more than nails but, as with most things in life, you get what you pay for.

Corry, it comes down to who you trust, Chris or me. Come on, decide!

'Corry……Corry'! See Chris, you've scared Corry away with all your crazy talk of nailing cables to the floor!

ChrisSU posted:

Nail the cables to the floor, it costs less and they'll sound better 

For a moment I thought you were serious. In our last place, the A5 ran past a doorway and people were always tripping over it. My solution was to punch a series of holes in the webbing, into which I fixed screws. The holes were wider than the shanks but narrower than the heads, and so the cable was kept in place - no more tripping - but without being fully restrained. A rare instance where the stiffness of A5 was a virtue.

I see you're ahead of the game with your fancy screws instead of nails! 

And what type of screws, Stainless steel, brass, mild steel, not to mention the various different head types....

Willy.

Allante93 posted:

 

 

...

Left stack used from the Netherlands, $1200 shipped to the US.

Right Stack New, Canadian Market, Crossed the border $900 USD! 

My new model, if I can't use it, I loose it! 

I do miss my Kans! 

Allante93!  

did you check with Trump? 

Great setup!

We still have our Kan 1's and they will outlive me -- an iconic speaker.

Also remember our Linn Isobarik DMSs very fondly. But our Hifi was in the lounge at that time and they somewhat 'dominated'. 

enjoy

ken

ken c posted:

Allante93 posted:

 

 

...

Left stack used from the Netherlands, $1200 shipped to the US.

Right Stack New, Canadian Market, Crossed the border $900 USD! 

My new model, if I can't use it, I loose it! 

I do miss my Kans! 

Allante93!  

did you check with Trump? 

Great setup!

We still have our Kan 1's and they will outlive me -- an iconic speaker.

Also remember our Linn Isobarik DMSs very fondly. But our Hifi was in the lounge at that time and they somewhat 'dominated'. 

enjoy

ken

@ Ken.

They Held me at the Border, until I called Trump and Told him my Cousin had a copy of his Tax returns! 

All jokes aside, Had a surround System while staying with my Ex, Phantom  Center Channel, and two Kans as the rear, with Briks on the Front, and Linn Sizmick 500 Watt Sub, I think, a case of Some timers!  

Heck of a System!  

Funny How Time Flies! 

Allante93!