"Dedicated" Streaming LAN...

Hi

I would say all you need is a switch, cables & the streaming stuff then set everything with a fixed, unique IP address.

A router generally has a DHCP server to allocate IP addresses as devices connect & disconnect, but I can't see the need if everything you connect can be allocated a fixed & unique IP within the desired range, say 192.168.10.1, 10.2 & so on.

If you have a NAS I think some of them do have an optional DHCP server so you could always use that if you wanted

N

Hmmm... thanks NFG, i was actually beginning to think my question wasn't at all sensible but you have given me some hope.

But I am not sure how i can set everything with a fixed address - i would imagine i would need to log on to the switch -- but i don't believe the GS108 switch is "log-on-able"

of course, i am aware that i will not be able to use the Naim app on my iPad as this needs wireless. and also that if i need to rip, i will need the internet -- but that's OK.

enjoy

ken

Of course you will also need Internet access for any updates of the NDS firmware.

I guess what the OP is asking for is a separate LAN from the rest of his network. Why is anyones guess, I would imagine along with setting up fibre networks and 'special' switches and boutique ethernet cables with ultra special connectors,  in order to obtain the inevitable 'improvements' in audio quality.

I note that all these efforts by people never result in a poorer quality of sound reproduction.. interesting.

Well anyhow, people here with much more capability could no doubt explain how to set up VLAN and then how to bridge two LANs so that the one LAN can access the internet through the other LAN without being part of that LAN, so that eventually after all the hair pulling you can whip out the single malt whisky and hear the awesome difference to sound quality over your network.

Personally, I think don't worry so much about networking. Seriously, I have said it before we are starting to look 'unusual' in the eyes of IT people. IT people!

Rather than setup separate VLANs for the data packets involved with streaming to my NDS, I used Port Priorities on the Ethernet connections into my Netgear GS108 & GS105 to ensure that the data packets from NAS to NDS were given priority over those used for the WAP, backup NAS units, Internet modem, IOT devices (heating, lights, security).

no idea whether has any affect on SQ, but it satisfies my IT system builder inner-self. Just like using the bonded Ethernet connections on my ReadyNAS Ultra 2 units with Adaptive Load Balancing mode. The load balancing software was a feature with the Pro 2, but can be applied to the Ultra 2 & Ultra 2+ models, however am I ever going to get over 1 Gigabit data throughput, to warrant the 2 Gigabit connection? But I have it, just in case.

Simon

sjbabbey posted:

Of course you will also need Internet access for any updates of the NDS firmware.

yes, i guess you can assume i realize that  -- but NDS updates that i have ever applied were not directly from the net -- i had to download the update install file and then install. the download can be done on any net.

enjoy...

ken

garyi posted:

I guess what the OP is asking for is a separate LAN from the rest of his network. Why is anyones guess, I would imagine along with setting up fibre networks and 'special' switches and boutique ethernet cables with ultra special connectors,  in order to obtain the inevitable 'improvements' in audio quality.

I note that all these efforts by people never result in a poorer quality of sound reproduction.. interesting.

Well anyhow, people here with much more capability could no doubt explain how to set up VLAN and then how to bridge two LANs so that the one LAN can access the internet through the other LAN without being part of that LAN, so that eventually after all the hair pulling you can whip out the single malt whisky and hear the awesome difference to sound quality over your network.

Personally, I think don't worry so much about networking. Seriously, I have said it before we are starting to look 'unusual' in the eyes of IT people. IT people!

 

i have no idea whether such a setup will result in better SQ, but this will help me understand a bit more whats going on streaming wise...

in my view, there is absolutely no harm in trying all sorts -- fancy ethernet cables, fancy switches etc ... although in my setup, i found the very cheap Roline cable sufficient between US and NDS. i am also using meicord to connect switch to ReadyNAS and switch to US -- just because i happen to have them and i like the way they are made.

enjoy

ken

What's wrong with DHCP? In a properly configured network, it should work fine, I don't understand why one would want to circumvent this.

ken c posted:

sjbabbey posted:

Of course you will also need Internet access for any updates of the NDS firmware.

yes, i guess you can assume i realize that  -- but NDS updates that i have ever applied were not directly from the net -- i had to download the update install file and then install. the download can be done on any net.

The firmware updater needs an internet connection, even though you will already have downloaded some of the firmware to a computer! If that sounds like a nightmare, sell up and buy a Nova. Also, your Unitiserve will need an internet connection to get metadata when ripping CDs. And if you ever stoop so low as to use Tidal, Spotify or intenet radio........

ChrisSU posted:

ken c posted:

sjbabbey posted:

Of course you will also need Internet access for any updates of the NDS firmware.

yes, i guess you can assume i realize that  -- but NDS updates that i have ever applied were not directly from the net -- i had to download the update install file and then install. the download can be done on any net.

The firmware updater needs an internet connection, even though you will already have downloaded some of the firmware to a computer! If that sounds like a nightmare, sell up and buy a Nova. Also, your Unitiserve will need an internet connection to get metadata when ripping CDs. And if you ever stoop so low as to use Tidal, Spotify or intenet radio........

you are right - but this isnt really a problem --how often do we have NDS or US updates?

enjoy...

ken

ken c posted:

am i correct that if i want to set up a dedicated streaming LAN (no internet) then all i need is a router (i have a Draytek 2920) and switch (i already have a GS108) -- and o course the streaming stuff (US and NDS). if so, i assume this is just a matter of connecting the switch to (any port?) on the router and then US and NDS connected to he switch? 

there is probably a question i have forgotten to ask :-(

enjoy...

ken

Hi, as said all you need is a network switch if you manually assign the IP addresses. However there is no real advantage in separating this from other clients on your network or connecting to the internet via a router, and of course a consumer router will typically offer a DHCP  server which is nearly always preferable to manually assigning addresses. The purpose of a switch is to seperate the data between clients so that devices don't interfere with each other (when using unicast IP addresses )

Yes there is benefit in reducing broadcast traffic and unnecessary multicast traffic... that requires more professional or specialist  network equipment but you would be affecting SQ marginally at best.

ChrisSU posted:

What's wrong with DHCP? In a properly configured network, it should work fine, I don't understand why one would want to circumvent this.

i am not suggesting there is anything wrong with DHCP?

enjoy...

ken

ken c posted:

ChrisSU posted:

What's wrong with DHCP? In a properly configured network, it should work fine, I don't understand why one would want to circumvent this.

i am not suggesting there is anything wrong with DHCP?

enjoy...

ken

No, but I think somebody else was!?

ken c posted:

ChrisSU posted:

ken c posted:

sjbabbey posted:

Of course you will also need Internet access for any updates of the NDS firmware.

yes, i guess you can assume i realize that  -- but NDS updates that i have ever applied were not directly from the net -- i had to download the update install file and then install. the download can be done on any net.

The firmware updater needs an internet connection, even though you will already have downloaded some of the firmware to a computer! If that sounds like a nightmare, sell up and buy a Nova. Also, your Unitiserve will need an internet connection to get metadata when ripping CDs. And if you ever stoop so low as to use Tidal, Spotify or intenet radio........

you are right - but this isnt really a problem --how often do we have NDS or US updates?

enjoy...

ken

NDS  - occasionally. Unitiserve - probably never! If you actually wanted to put them on a LAN with no internet connection, you could always temporarily connect them to the internet with an Ethernet cable when an update was available. 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

Hi, as said all you need is a network switch if you manually assign the IP addresses. However there is no real advantage in separating this from other clients on your network or connecting to the internet via a router, and of course a consumer router will typically offer a DHCP  server which is nearly always preferable to manually assigning addresses. The purpose of a switch is to seperate the data between clients so that devices don't interfere with each other (when using unicast IP addresses )

Yes there is benefit in reducing broadcast traffic and unnecessary multicast traffic... that requires more professional or specialist  network equipment but you would be affecting SQ marginally at best.

thanks Simon -- there is always something i pick up from your posts e.g. the bit in red...

how does one manually assign IP addresses (for US, NAS and NDS) with just a GS108 switch?

enjoy...

ken

Hi Ken,

My home setup has it's own network that isn't connected to the internet. This was due to the house construction type and where the listening room is located to proximity to the main home router.

My profile lists what the network and gear consists of. Sure, it's a bit of a pain in regards to ripping discs and applying updates to nas's etc, plus no access to internet radio, Tidal and the likes. This doesn't bother me too much and it's al I've known with this system so I guess I'm just used to it and find work arounds.

On the upside, the layout is pretty rock solid and consistently stable.

I may link it back to the main router at some stage in the future, but the thought of drilling through external walls, running conduit outside and back up through a wall/floor doesn't excite me much.

Cheers

Ricky.

Hi Ken,  all good advice in the thread,  but why do you want to do this ???   very abnormal & seems more trouble than its worth.  

Hi Ken, not withstanding Mike's sensible observation above ie do you want to really fiddle around here, here are the steps you might want to consider.  

An unmanaged switch doesn't care about or use unicast IP addresses, it works at a lower level and uses something called MAC addresses or layer 2 addresses. These are often defined in hardware and are not configurable. So back to the IP layer, if you were just using a switch on your new network with no DHCP server / router you would need to manually setup the network mask and IP addresses. You may need to define a gateway address and DNS address, but clearly these will be dummies, although the dummy gateway address would need to be in your manually defined IP (v4) network.

An example is define your own class c private network: 192.168.1.0

Using this network address  the maximum valid subnet mask is 255.255.255.0 so you might as well as use it...this gives upto 254 clients you can use on your network

Now you need to define the IP addresses for your clients using the setup methods for each client, so start at 192.168.1.2,  192.168.1.3 and work up. Keep a written list of addresses. Each client in your new network should be given a subnet mask of 255.255.255.0

now leave 192.168.1.1 free, as use this as a dummy gateway address if your clients need it when manually assigning. This is used as the router address the clients would otherwise talk to if they need to talk outside your private network. Clearly this can't happen as it's isolated and you have no router but you should do this for clients expecting a router. 192.168.1.255 must also be left free as this becomes your network's broadcast address.

For DNS put any DNS address in or leave blank You can use Google DNS addresses if you want, but again it's irrelevant for your little isolated network.

ken c posted:

Hmmm... thanks NFG, i was actually beginning to think my question wasn't at all sensible but you have given me some hope.

But I am not sure how i can set everything with a fixed address - i would imagine i would need to log on to the switch -- but i don't believe the GS108 switch is "log-on-able"

of course, i am aware that i will not be able to use the Naim app on my iPad as this needs wireless. and also that if i need to rip, i will need the internet -- but that's OK.

enjoy

ken

Not possible to allocate your switch an IP as its not needed, just the devices on the network that need an IP to 'talk' to each other on.

Not quite sure why you want to keep the network separate, other than to prevent intrusion.

You could add a wireless access point or a wireless router so you could use your iPhone to control it, a S/H Netgear DG834 from the well know on line tat bazaar & that would give you DHCP for assigning IPs too.

See above reply from Simon, comprehensive and explains IP addressing well.

N

Hello, you can setup your network how you wish, isn't a standard about ip's you can use from all clases, how you want, i also have dedicate network for my hifi, inclundig router, storage, ndx. From my point of view it's too much(a network just for music) you can design one network from begining, with router, switch...what you need is network fine tuning after, mtu, vlans, security, 2 internet providers and so on...but that's more for simple user and the advantage is low to 0...will not sound better. Simple let router from provider and if is setup correct it's ok, the rest is complicated and advantage is near 0.

Adistefan, I am not sure that is sensible advice. Theoretically on a small isolated network you could set up non private IP network addresses and subnets and do what you like, but some consumer devices will only accept IP addresses conforming to private classful addresses, of which 192.168.1.0 is a valid example of.. So best keep it safe and simple. It also allows the user to connect a router to the internet on their network with minimum disruption at a later date. The IP (v4) address 'standard' that would apply here is RFC796 

Simon theoretical you may be right, what killing you is the practice. What i am saying is that in the end the sound doesn't change. You can configure network devices how you wish that doesn't mean you get advantage in sound, doesn't change the sound. Please give an example of one device who accept only (one) private class address(es) and you can't change it??...if i understood the meaning of what you wrote up. You don't need subnets for few consumer devices.

But in the end that's the idea keep it simple not all are network administrators and don't need to become one because of a few devices connected in house.

Ken - i'm not quite sure what you are trying to achieve with this setup but can i suggest you have a chat to your dealer and borrow a Melco Server. This will store your music and has two Ethernet ports on it. One connects to your router to allow normal wireless control of your NDS via the naim app, the other connects straight to the NDS ethernet port and is designed to keep unwanted network traffic off this 'isolated' side.

Alan Ainslie from Melco is a very helpful chap (IIRC he worked with Naim during the early streaming and Naimnet days). There are a few of us on the forum that use these Melco servers (both as UPnP and USB sources). Bert Schurink and Jonas Olofsson use their NDS streamers in this way so maybe they will chip in and comment 

James

Mike-B posted:

Hi Ken,  all good advice in the thread,  but why do you want to do this ???   very abnormal & seems more trouble than its worth.  

Simple. To learn something new...

enjoy...

ken

james n posted:

Ken - i'm not quite sure what you are trying to achieve with this setup but can i suggest you have a chat to your dealer and borrow a Melco Server. This will store your music and has two Ethernet ports on it. One connects to your router to allow normal wireless control of your NDS via the naim app, the other connects straight to the NDS ethernet port and is designed to keep unwanted network traffic off this 'isolated' side.

Alan Ainslie from Melco is a very helpful chap (IIRC he worked with Naim during the early streaming and Naimnet days). There are a few of us on the forum that use these Melco servers (both as UPnP and USB sources). Bert Schurink and Jonas Olofsson use their NDS streamers in this way so maybe they will chip in and comment 

James

James, many thanks. I believe i have answered the 'why' bit -- i am curious and if i manage to achieve this, i believe i will understand a lot more than i do now (not hard, given that i know naaaaaaaarthing! ...). The simplicity of a streaming network controlled by single switch and no other net hardware (other than the US and NDS of course) is very interesting to me.

I dont know anything about Melco and i am not looking to change any hardware on my network. 

enjoy...

ken