Windows update (KB3150513) makes exception to NAIM DAC-V1 via USB. Issue and Solution

MS say....

"This update provides the latest set of definitions for compatibility diagnostics that are performed on the system. The updated definitions will help enable Microsoft and its partners to ensure compatibility for all customers who want to install the latest Windows operating system."

That's all working out well then.  

Surely you're not suggesting MS release less than fully tested software updates are you? 

Crispin, just in case they're not aware of it, I've emailed a link to this thread over to Naim.

If it really is a failure of the usb registration, thats an ooops

Good detective work there Crispin!

best

David

[@mention:2833539977722183] - Thanks for the info

David Hendon posted:

Good detective work there Crispin!

best

David

Thanks - not so much detective work but a moment of great patience and half-hour to spare 

Hi Crispin,

The guys have been scratching heads here given your comments and the driver authors have come back to me with some information and queries...

Firstly they are curious as to the exceptions list that you mention that lists (or doesn't list) the Naim DAC-V1 and what exactly you are referring to there as they aren't aware of any driver exceptions list that they should (or shouldn't) be on.

They're saying that they haven't had any issues with running the DAC-V1 on Windows 10 64 bit (and I haven't seen any here in the test setup I have here) so unless we can identify a specific issue with the current drivers then obviously we won't be changing anything so perhaps you can give us some more information on exactly what the issue is that you've been having and maybe we might be able to identify what's going on?

Supposedly there were lots of issues with Windows build 1607 so their recommendation was to go through USB devices in device manager one at a time checking for updated drivers and if that doesn't help then update to Windows build 1703 ( https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4018124 .

Cheers

Phil

I saw an announcement recently that Microsoft was finally going to natively support class 2 audio.  When they do this we may not even need usb audio drivers.  Maybe this is a precursor to that?

Brubacca - the truth is out there! Who knew I'd need to become an IT expert simply to enjoy listening to  music. This truely has become science meeting the arts! 

I'm attempting Phil's lead of updating my Win10 version from 1607 to 1703... taken an hour so far of downloading and restarting...

ive spent 5+ hours with multiple MS agents all coming on... trying to up sell me..:falling off as they disconnect themselves...it's not at all infuriating :-)

Phil Harris posted:

Hi Crispin,

The guys have been scratching heads here given your comments and the driver authors have come back to me with some information and queries...

Firstly they are curious as to the exceptions list that you mention that lists (or doesn't list) the Naim DAC-V1 and what exactly you are referring to there as they aren't aware of any driver exceptions list that they should (or shouldn't) be on.

They're saying that they haven't had any issues with running the DAC-V1 on Windows 10 64 bit (and I haven't seen any here in the test setup I have here) so unless we can identify a specific issue with the current drivers then obviously we won't be changing anything so perhaps you can give us some more information on exactly what the issue is that you've been having and maybe we might be able to identify what's going on?

Supposedly there were lots of issues with Windows build 1607 so their recommendation was to go through USB devices in device manager one at a time checking for updated drivers and if that doesn't help then update to Windows build 1703 ( https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/help/4018124&nbsp.

Cheers

Phil

Hi Phil Harris!

HELP! I spent 5 hours with Microsoft Level 2 support on this today. I really could do with some tech input from NAIM Tech Support here. In summary:

- Windows 10, version 1703 has been correctly uploaded

Symptom: If I connect the DAC V1, the error comes back (Error = PC mouse and keyboard are frozen AND DACV1 is frozen). BUT... if we 'restart' the PC... try and reconect the USB on the shut-down, then the error prevents the PC from shutting down.... BUT... if we connect the USB during the Booting up (in thei scase from the black screen with Lenovo) then it seems to work fine. 'work fine' meaning DAC and PC operate as they should. However... the moment you physically disconnect the device (DAC), same error re-appears. It is like the "plug and play" aspect of the DAC has been lost.

Microsoft Level 2 are basically stumped. Their suggestion is that this is partially due to connecting off a USB3.0. (a) I have no choice / I only have two USB3.0 ports and (b) well it "was" working okay since January.

As things stand, the only way to have the DAC working with Windows10 is to quickly plug it in from the BOOT startup. Equally, if I power off the DAC, plug in the USB, switch-on the DAC, the error appears.

Apologies if this is not the right place to request technical support but MS and I dont know how to proceed.

If you push and hold the "USB" button on the DAC then we see as follows: (a) Settings: 15 107, (b) Computer: Windows Custom (c) USB: High Speed

Cheers,

Crispin

Crispin_Hill posted:

Brubacca - the truth is out there! Who knew I'd need to become an IT expert simply to enjoy listening to  music. This truely has become science meeting the arts! 

I'm attempting Phil's lead of updating my Win10 version from 1607 to 1703... taken an hour so far of downloading and restarting...

ive spent 5+ hours with multiple MS agents all coming on... trying to up sell me..:falling off as they disconnect themselves...it's not at all infuriating :-)

This is why I moved away from computer based audio. Windows in particular. Do yourself a favor and get a dedicated hardware based solution that can feed your DAC V1. Sonore MicroRendu or Sonicorbiter SE or Sotm SMS-200.  I have a MicroRendu and it can be used directly from the PC,  all the PC  would need  to be working is the network port  

personally I use a Vortexbox (I built it) with Minimserver loaded.  I use an iPad to control.  

Good Luck getting this resolved, but been there, done that, got the book and movie.  I am very happy to have moved on from Windows being able to affect my music listening  I still use Windows for other machines.  

I read some of these articles about setting dedicated servers up... NAS drives and the like and get quite intimidated by the complication.  I am in no doubt that they sound superior, but the complication and yet-more-cost getting there are off-putting. Not to mention, yet more box-clutter in or around my desk.

My two significantly wealthier brothers run NDX's and NDS's powwered by dedicated XPS's... handing off to NAP 500's and then Ovators.... you get the picture (high-end) and they have their 6-disk-NAS-Drives crammed with Caviar-Black 2TB's in RAID... stuffed with a g'zillion albums ripped through a NAIM device etc etc... and yet, they cannot get the bloody system working and it's a level of complication they cannot handle... hence most of the time they just connect wirelessly with the NAIM ap on the iphone and stream in TIDAL. The purists gasp. "clearly they are simpletons!"... But we're not. 

I guess what I was looking for in all this was "simplicity". Plug my DAC into my laptop (it's slim one (Lenovo Yoga710) and unfortunately doesn't have a network port) and listen to my headphones whilst I work. I have invested I feel a lot of money on the interconnects and devices, but now I expect Windows to communicate with NAIM... like they used to do. MS have basically thrown their hands in the air (albeit after 6 hours of online support) and the conclusion is "talk to NAIM".  

I probably sound ungrateful - please don't think that. What you and others say is quite right. But you HAVE to really really have a passion or penchant for IT at least, to do what you're talking about. 

Crispin, have you found a solution to this? Surely the Naim driver is only needed for > 24/96 playback, so disabling the Naim driver should enable use of the V-1 using the Windows driver (although, I've never tried this).

I can confirm that I have had KB3150513 (or rather the latest version of it), installed on Windows PCs on my network for a while now with no negative effects on my DAC V-1 or other USB devices , although Windows Creator's edition has not yet installed on the PC with the Naim driver installed, despite all the update files being downloaded (which may or may not be significant, see below).

KB3150513 is an update Microsoft sends out before major upgrades to Windows 10 to assess whether your hardware will support the new version.  It certainly should  not break anything, although googling it shows rare reported cases of it breaking printers etc - the main complaint is the information it sends back to MS on your hardware.

It may be that the Naim driver has found itself onto some exceptions list, or it may be just coincidence that my PC hasn't updated.