CDX2 vs streaming.

I suspect it's not the DACs you are hearing as they are very different beasts and do things quite differently, but it's the preamp stage you are hearing as the determining factor. The 272 preamp is effectively optimised for its DAC. If you want to use third party DACs a different preamp to the 272 might be better to use. With the Hugo for example I have only really heard what it can offer better to my ears over an NDS or NDAC on a 552 and 252 (with ebb and flow and the Mandelbrot effect)... but all Naim TI DAC implementations I have heard are highly enjoyable and all can very much hold their own... ultimately you are limited/differentiated by the reconstruction techniques and the chosen compromises of the converters.... and as DA reconstruction is ultimately inexact and creating a facsimile of the sound we will all hear and interpret things subconsciously slightly differently...

Huge posted:

No quarter posted:

I would say,192khz files fed from a Core in SPDIF mode,using a 555DR power supply on the 272>Full loom Superlumina>300 DR amp or above...all using powerlines on "Full Fraim"

If you're going to use the 272 in S/Pdiff, why use a streamer?

As an S/Pdiff DAC + Preamp, a HugoTT or nDAC + 282 / HiCapDR will probably be better than the 272/555.

Possibly, but the the 272 has been designed with its synergy in mind and therefore sounds optimum for what it is.. I guess it all depends as to what one is referring to as 'better'... e.g. My post above to NQ, and I suspect this becomes quite individualistic.

And further I find the Transport/DAC synergy of the CDX2 wonderful and I enjoy it for what it is... but yes my NAC allows my to savour the nuances and differences from different sources... 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I suspect it's not the DACs you are hearing as they are very different beasts and do things quite differently, but it's the preamp stage you are hearing as the determining factor. The 272 preamp is effectively optimised for its DAC. If you want to use third party DACs a different preamp to the 272 might be better to use. With the Hugo for example I have only really heard what it can offer better to my ears over an NDS or NDAC on a 552 and 252 (with ebb and flow and the Mandelbrot effect)... but all Naim TI DAC implementations I have heard are highly enjoyable and all can very much hold their own... ultimately you are limited/differentiated by the reconstruction techniques and the chosen compromises of the converters.... and as DA reconstruction is ultimately inexact and creating a facsimile of the sound we will all hear and interpret things subconsciously slightly differently...

Hi Simon

I am not sure if what you are saying is the case,possibly,or even probably...about the Hugo's synergy with the 272.Luckily,I also have another good pre-amp here that I use for home theatre,which is a Cary audio Cinema 12.I am going to try using the Core/Hugo as a source into it,now the Cary has a very good separate 2 channel circuit,as well as the multi channel options.I will probably just use my 5 channel amp for this test,I am not sure how well the 250 DR would work running off a non Naim pre.

No quarter posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I suspect it's not the DACs you are hearing as they are very different beasts and do things quite differently, but it's the preamp stage you are hearing as the determining factor. The 272 preamp is effectively optimised for its DAC. If you want to use third party DACs a different preamp to the 272 might be better to use. With the Hugo for example I have only really heard what it can offer better to my ears over an NDS or NDAC on a 552 and 252 (with ebb and flow and the Mandelbrot effect)... but all Naim TI DAC implementations I have heard are highly enjoyable and all can very much hold their own... ultimately you are limited/differentiated by the reconstruction techniques and the chosen compromises of the converters.... and as DA reconstruction is ultimately inexact and creating a facsimile of the sound we will all hear and interpret things subconsciously slightly differently...

Hi Simon

I am not sure if what you are saying is the case,possibly,or even probably...about the Hugo's synergy with the 272.Luckily,I also have another good pre-amp here that I use for home theatre,which is a Cary audio Cinema 12.I am going to try using the Core/Hugo as a source into it,now the Cary has a very good separate 2 channel circuit,as well as the multi channel options.I will probably just use my 5 channel amp for this test,I am not sure how well the 250 DR would work running off a non Naim pre.

This is what I ended up doing after moving from 272/XPS/250DR to NDX/XPS/250DR, partly because I don't have the room for a NAC and associated power supplies as well. I compared the Hugo2 into 272/XPS and it was different but not any noticeable step up. Interestingly the NDX into 272/XPS was slightly better but the latter was not really outclassed.

I use a Classe Sigma AV processor for home cinema and just on the off-chance tried routing the NDX and Hugo through it in place of the 272. Again not much difference. However when I moved the XPS onto the NDX then into the Sigma, this was a huge improvement. It really is a special combination along with the 250DR amp. 

The only downside was the need for additional cabling to get the best out of the system (Chord Signature TA DIN-RCA and RCA-XLR).

Felty99 posted:

No quarter posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

I suspect it's not the DACs you are hearing as they are very different beasts and do things quite differently, but it's the preamp stage you are hearing as the determining factor. The 272 preamp is effectively optimised for its DAC. If you want to use third party DACs a different preamp to the 272 might be better to use. With the Hugo for example I have only really heard what it can offer better to my ears over an NDS or NDAC on a 552 and 252 (with ebb and flow and the Mandelbrot effect)... but all Naim TI DAC implementations I have heard are highly enjoyable and all can very much hold their own... ultimately you are limited/differentiated by the reconstruction techniques and the chosen compromises of the converters.... and as DA reconstruction is ultimately inexact and creating a facsimile of the sound we will all hear and interpret things subconsciously slightly differently...

Hi Simon

I am not sure if what you are saying is the case,possibly,or even probably...about the Hugo's synergy with the 272.Luckily,I also have another good pre-amp here that I use for home theatre,which is a Cary audio Cinema 12.I am going to try using the Core/Hugo as a source into it,now the Cary has a very good separate 2 channel circuit,as well as the multi channel options.I will probably just use my 5 channel amp for this test,I am not sure how well the 250 DR would work running off a non Naim pre.

This is what I ended up doing after moving from 272/XPS/250DR to NDX/XPS/250DR, partly because I don't have the room for a NAC and associated power supplies as well. I compared the Hugo2 into 272/XPS and it was different but not any noticeable step up. Interestingly the NDX into 272/XPS was slightly better but the latter was not really outclassed.

I use a Classe Sigma AV processor for home cinema and just on the off-chance tried routing the NDX and Hugo through it in place of the 272. Again not much difference. However when I moved the XPS onto the NDX then into the Sigma, this was a huge improvement. It really is a special combination along with the 250DR amp. 

The only downside was the need for additional cabling to get the best out of the system (Chord Signature TA DIN-RCA and RCA-XLR).

That is interesting,so let me get this straight...you prefer the sound of the NDX/XPS into a non Naim pre,while still using a 250 DR amp.This is better than NDX/XPS into 272/250?I don't see why you need an NDX and a 272,actually you got me a bit confused now.

I still have lots of experimenting to do myself,but if I can sell off some gear,and get better sound,I am all for it

No quarter posted:

That is interesting,so let me get this straight...you prefer the sound of the NDX/XPS into a non Naim pre,while still using a 250 DR amp.This is better than NDX/XPS into 272/250?I don't see why you need an NDX and a 272,actually you got me a bit confused now.

I still have lots of experimenting to do myself,but if I can sell off some gear,and get better sound,I am all for it

Yes, NDX/XPS-250DR was preferable to 272/XPS-250DR using a non Naim pre with the former. My interest was how much of a step up an NDX and/or Hugo2 was when integrated somehow into my present system. There are far too many permutations to list here so tried to keep things simple by only changing one thing at a time.

There seems to be a really special synergy with the Classe processor and the Naim sources and amps, something I've subsequently learnt from other dealers and owners. I think it helps that the Classe is geared towards 2-channel music so is a very clean and transparent pre compared to other AV brands (Marantz/Anthem etc).

Felty99 posted:

No quarter posted:

That is interesting,so let me get this straight...you prefer the sound of the NDX/XPS into a non Naim pre,while still using a 250 DR amp.This is better than NDX/XPS into 272/250?I don't see why you need an NDX and a 272,actually you got me a bit confused now.

I still have lots of experimenting to do myself,but if I can sell off some gear,and get better sound,I am all for it

Yes, NDX/XPS-250DR was preferable to 272/XPS-250DR using a non Naim pre with the former. My interest was how much of a step up an NDX and/or Hugo2 was when integrated somehow into my present system. There are far too many permutations to list here so tried to keep things simple by only changing one thing at a time.

There seems to be a really special synergy with the Classe processor and the Naim sources and amps, something I've subsequently learnt from other dealers and owners. I think it helps that the Classe is geared towards 2-channel music so is a very clean and transparent pre compared to other AV brands (Marantz/Anthem etc).

i very hardly believe in synergy with non naim preamps, it is the case for me.  But you are in a very classic naim forum here, so not many members will advise you to connect a classe pre with naim amp.   But this synergy is also a bit exceptional,  you must be careful and adapt the adequate cables. 

Felty99 posted:

No quarter posted:

That is interesting,so let me get this straight...you prefer the sound of the NDX/XPS into a non Naim pre,while still using a 250 DR amp.This is better than NDX/XPS into 272/250?I don't see why you need an NDX and a 272,actually you got me a bit confused now.

I still have lots of experimenting to do myself,but if I can sell off some gear,and get better sound,I am all for it

Yes, NDX/XPS-250DR was preferable to 272/XPS-250DR using a non Naim pre with the former. My interest was how much of a step up an NDX and/or Hugo2 was when integrated somehow into my present system. There are far too many permutations to list here so tried to keep things simple by only changing one thing at a time.

There seems to be a really special synergy with the Classe processor and the Naim sources and amps, something I've subsequently learnt from other dealers and owners. I think it helps that the Classe is geared towards 2-channel music so is a very clean and transparent pre compared to other AV brands (Marantz/Anthem etc).

Today I got around to hooking up my Core in SPDIF mode to a Hugo 1(still waiting for H2) into the analog inputs on my Cary Audio cinema 12,using my 5 channel Anthem amp.This combo may sound better than trying to use the Hugo in the all Naim chain,it is still early,so I want to listen for a few days.But initial impressions tell me to leave the Hugo out of the Naim gear/chain,Naim sounds best with Naim only.I am NOT saying this current set up is better than the Core/272/Xps/250...that combo seems to sound the best of all.Adding the Hugo to the all Naim stack seemed to take a little something away from the overall sound/goodness,or PRAT.

No quarter posted:

Felty99 posted:

No quarter posted:

That is interesting,so let me get this straight...you prefer the sound of the NDX/XPS into a non Naim pre,while still using a 250 DR amp.This is better than NDX/XPS into 272/250?I don't see why you need an NDX and a 272,actually you got me a bit confused now.

I still have lots of experimenting to do myself,but if I can sell off some gear,and get better sound,I am all for it

Yes, NDX/XPS-250DR was preferable to 272/XPS-250DR using a non Naim pre with the former. My interest was how much of a step up an NDX and/or Hugo2 was when integrated somehow into my present system. There are far too many permutations to list here so tried to keep things simple by only changing one thing at a time.

There seems to be a really special synergy with the Classe processor and the Naim sources and amps, something I've subsequently learnt from other dealers and owners. I think it helps that the Classe is geared towards 2-channel music so is a very clean and transparent pre compared to other AV brands (Marantz/Anthem etc).

Today I got around to hooking up my Core in SPDIF mode to a Hugo 1(still waiting for H2) into the analog inputs on my Cary Audio cinema 12,using my 5 channel Anthem amp.This combo may sound better than trying to use the Hugo in the all Naim chain,it is still early,so I want to listen for a few days.But initial impressions tell me to leave the Hugo out of the Naim gear/chain,Naim sounds best with Naim only.I am NOT saying this current set up is better than the Core/272/Xps/250...that combo seems to sound the best of all.Adding the Hugo to the all Naim stack seemed to take a little something away from the overall sound/goodness,or PRAT.

all this is a matter of personal preference, rather than better sound quality in absolute terms. Some prefer all naim system, other prefer chord dacs with naim amps, and other prefer even non naim preamp with naim amp( like me).  As for prat, i use an all tube preamp and have not found the prat diminished vs the nac 252 i had before.  

The 272 is a special product, a preamp with a streamer inside. It would be interesting to know if adding hugo with a 282/250/ndx will affect too the prat of the naim partners, as it was the case with 272/250.

French Rooster posted:

No quarter posted:

Felty99 posted:

No quarter posted:

That is interesting,so let me get this straight...you prefer the sound of the NDX/XPS into a non Naim pre,while still using a 250 DR amp.This is better than NDX/XPS into 272/250?I don't see why you need an NDX and a 272,actually you got me a bit confused now.

I still have lots of experimenting to do myself,but if I can sell off some gear,and get better sound,I am all for it

Yes, NDX/XPS-250DR was preferable to 272/XPS-250DR using a non Naim pre with the former. My interest was how much of a step up an NDX and/or Hugo2 was when integrated somehow into my present system. There are far too many permutations to list here so tried to keep things simple by only changing one thing at a time.

There seems to be a really special synergy with the Classe processor and the Naim sources and amps, something I've subsequently learnt from other dealers and owners. I think it helps that the Classe is geared towards 2-channel music so is a very clean and transparent pre compared to other AV brands (Marantz/Anthem etc).

Today I got around to hooking up my Core in SPDIF mode to a Hugo 1(still waiting for H2) into the analog inputs on my Cary Audio cinema 12,using my 5 channel Anthem amp.This combo may sound better than trying to use the Hugo in the all Naim chain,it is still early,so I want to listen for a few days.But initial impressions tell me to leave the Hugo out of the Naim gear/chain,Naim sounds best with Naim only.I am NOT saying this current set up is better than the Core/272/Xps/250...that combo seems to sound the best of all.Adding the Hugo to the all Naim stack seemed to take a little something away from the overall sound/goodness,or PRAT.

all this is a matter of personal preference, rather than better sound quality in absolute terms. Some prefer all naim system, other prefer chord dacs with naim amps, and other prefer even non naim preamp with naim amp( like me).  As for prat, i use an all tube preamp and have not found the prat diminished vs the nac 252 i had before.  

The 272 is a special product, a preamp with a streamer inside. It would be interesting to know if adding hugo with a 282/250/ndx will affect too the prat of the naim partners, as it was the case with 272/250.

I agree about the "personal preference" thing,who is to say which sound is better,more like better suited to YOUR taste.I have quite a few different options to use (active speakers,Naim gear,non-Naim gear),and I like it this way.

French Rooster posted:

all this is a matter of personal preference, rather than better sound quality in absolute terms. Some prefer all naim system, other prefer chord dacs with naim amps, and other prefer even non naim preamp with naim amp( like me).  As for prat, i use an all tube preamp and have not found the prat diminished vs the nac 252 i had before.  

Exactly... I find, and some of my audio buddies have found a real synergy with Chord DACs and Naim amplification, certainly high end amplification... to be honest abstract notions like PRAT etc sort of disappears with it.. it becomes immersive musical enjoyment. If the music has PRAT in it, it will be there to enjoy on playback..

Now I also love my Naim CDX2, I have said many times it's not particularly neutral, but it does accentuate PRAT... on some music this is wonderful, for other music it just doesn't work right.. so I keep it as a source option for those CDs that benefit a bit from the CDX2 sound... like guitar rock and Bob Dylan tracks 

I'm confused

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

French Rooster posted:

all this is a matter of personal preference, rather than better sound quality in absolute terms. Some prefer all naim system, other prefer chord dacs with naim amps, and other prefer even non naim preamp with naim amp( like me).  

Now I also love my Naim CDX2, I have said many times it's not particularly neutral, but it does accentuate PRAT... on some music this is wonderful, for other music it just doesn't work right.. so I keep it as a source option for those CDs that benefit a bit from the CDX2 sound... like guitar rock and Bob Dylan tracks 

Agree with the above, 

I am keen to experience the pleasure of streaming, maybe an NDX at some point, but I really don't want to give up my cdx2.

The solution is to have both.

Does anyone use an NDX bare? Or Cdx2 bare? Or do they both require an XPSdr to really make them sing?

In my opinion a XPS is all but essential on a CDX2 (and NDX) but Simon takes a different but = valid view. 

Regards,

Lindsay

I use my CDX2 bare on Fraim with a Hiline ... on the albums that really gel with the CDX2 it sounds sublime this way. I did not like my 555PS on my CDX2.. hard to listen to... and I sold my XPS2 some time back.

I'm still enjoying my CDX2 bare into my 272. Until I hear a streaming solution that equals it, it won't be going anywhere. Any PS I get will be for the 272. 

wenger2015 posted:

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

French Rooster posted:

all this is a matter of personal preference, rather than better sound quality in absolute terms. Some prefer all naim system, other prefer chord dacs with naim amps, and other prefer even non naim preamp with naim amp( like me).  

Now I also love my Naim CDX2, I have said many times it's not particularly neutral, but it does accentuate PRAT... on some music this is wonderful, for other music it just doesn't work right.. so I keep it as a source option for those CDs that benefit a bit from the CDX2 sound... like guitar rock and Bob Dylan tracks 

Agree with the above, 

I am keen to experience the pleasure of streaming, maybe an NDX at some point, but I really don't want to give up my cdx2.

The solution is to have both.

Does anyone use an NDX bare? Or Cdx2 bare? Or do they both require an XPSdr to really make them sing?

Wenger, I used a bare NDX into an Olive system it was very good I decided to upgrade my Olive system last year and the advice from Naim was to add a XPS to the NDX first.

During my discussions and eventual demo's with my local dealer last year we started with a bare NDX and then added a XPS dr I was very surprised at the all round improvement  that was the first item in the basket not heard a Cdx2 so can't comment when I made the change I did ditch my CDI and have never missed it the system is now fed with a Core and it loves the change of diet.

Need to try an NDX at some point, the Xpsdr works really well with my cdx2, but I will have the option to experiment when the time comes...

I have to admit I am tempted to try a Core. Maybe next year. Adding a nas with it's questionable power supply and only being able to connect via UPnP doesn't sit well with me. What is the best way to listen to a core? Although I do stream from my laptop, using asset, and it does sound very good it's not as good as my CDX2. Initially, back at the start of this thread, I felt UPnP and cd were very close, however there seems to be some Naim magic in that CD player! 

Is it possible to match the cdx2 sound with that of a Naim streamer? Is it only possible with spending a substantial sum on an NDS and 555ps? 

wenger2015 posted:

Is it possible to match the cdx2 sound with that of a Naim streamer? Is it only possible with spending a substantial sum on an NDS and 555ps? 

Good question - if you connect NDX and CDX2 to the nDAC - yes, the can sound more or less the same.
As stand-alone-boxes - they will sound a bit different.

Adam Zielinski posted:

wenger2015 posted:

Is it possible to match the cdx2 sound with that of a Naim streamer? Is it only possible with spending a substantial sum on an NDS and 555ps? 

Good question - if you connect NDX and CDX2 to the nDAC - yes, the can sound more or less the same.
As stand-alone-boxes - they will sound a bit different.

Thanks for the advice Adam.

Ps apologies if I caused a problem with your thread by requesting a copy of your track..

wenger2015 posted:

Adam Zielinski posted:

wenger2015 posted:

Is it possible to match the cdx2 sound with that of a Naim streamer? Is it only possible with spending a substantial sum on an NDS and 555ps? 

Good question - if you connect NDX and CDX2 to the nDAC - yes, the can sound more or less the same.
As stand-alone-boxes - they will sound a bit different.

Thanks for the advice Adam.

Ps apologies if I caused a problem with your thread by requesting a copy of your track..

No worries

wenger2015 posted:

Is it possible to match the cdx2 sound with that of a Naim streamer? Is it only possible with spending a substantial sum on an NDS and 555ps? 

No... not at all... the CDX2 has a distinctive sound that is not matched by anything else  I have heard from Naim or elsewhere. The CDX2 'voicing' is quite unique and is it's endearing quality. Yes not particularly neutral, and doesn't gel that well with all content (IMO), but for the music that does suit it it is second to none in the pace and emotional stakes. My view is that if you are going to feed the CDX2 into a NDAC, there is probably little point in doing so... the real value of the CDX2 is it DSP/DAC/analogue output stage combination... and you will bypass all this if feeding the NDAC, and you might as well stream the CD.

i keep my CDX2 as a dedicated source as distinct from my streamer/DAC and tuner because of its distinctive performance.

The NDS/555PS is very different from the CDX2 with the former being more detailed, transparent and neutral across media, but doesn't have that infectious CDX2 performance you get some from discs. 

Simon-in-Suffolk posted:

wenger2015 posted:

Is it possible to match the cdx2 sound with that of a Naim streamer? Is it only possible with spending a substantial sum on an NDS and 555ps? 

No... not at all... the CDX2 has a distinctive sound that is not matched by anything else  I have heard from Naim or elsewhere. The CDX2 'voicing' is quite unique and is it's endearing quality. Yes not particularly neutral, and doesn't gel that well with all content (IMO), but for the music that does suit it it is second to none in the pace and emotional stakes. My view is that if you are going to feed the CDX2 into a NDAC, there is probably little point in doing so... the real value of the CDX2 is it DSP/DAC/analogue output stage combination... and you will bypass all this if feeding the NDAC, and you might as well stream the CD.

i keep my CDX2 as a dedicated source as distinct from my streamer/DAC and tuner because of its distinctive performance.

The NDS/555PS is very different from the CDX2 with the former being more detailed, transparent and neutral across media, but doesn't have that infectious CDX2 performance you get some from discs. 

Appreciate the feedback,  I am considering the best way to have both options available, I don't want to part from my cdx2, but would like the benefits of streaming.